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leaving cert/points system obsession

ford fiesta

just a quick rant...why is this country and its media obsessed with the junior and leaving cert and only photograph students on the front page of the times/independent/examiner etc who get 9 A1's or near and not those students that are happy with, say, 290 points.

then the cao offers are out today and just watching the 6pm rte news, the focus is on high pointed courses (trinity etc)and shows a student getting his cao offer of science in trinity, which is fairly high points. again, why dont they show the student getting his sligo I.T. business course (and again is happy with it).

is there any relevance on the average leaving cert and low third level pointed courses anymore?

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sock puppet

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Not really. It's much easier to score highly in English than it is in Maths.

edit: obviously that's not true in any objective sense, but Irish students do better in English than Maths

Owen_S

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Seems fair, it's not as if the brightest English students in the country quoting Patrick Kavanagh and Shakespeare are going to lead this country out of the energy crisis.

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

But in real life, that doesn't happen. Applicants that have a B3 in Maths and then a distribution of As in other subjects like that aren't putting Maths in TCD on their CAO. I did TP in TCD last year which is a joint degree with the maths department and I don't think anyone in Maths or TP had less than a HB2 in LC Maths.

Okay...that doesn't really matter though.

I am not talking about Maths in TCD in particular, I'm using it as an illustration of how there is a design flaw in the CAO in terms of getting the most gifted students in a specific discipline into the best courses allied to that discipline.

In short, it rewards the all-rounder, not necessarily the outstanding student in a specific area.

Mully_2011

It will be interesting to see how many of these students drop out. The education system should try and focus a student into what they are interested in not "Ah Shure Ill do Science cos Jimmy down the road is doing it".I done a Biotech course and had no interest in it lasted two years before I dropped out but lucky I'm in a course I love now.

I know a girl who got 600 points and dropped out within a few months.

Do something you want to do not something your parents think you should be doing or "Ah shure I'll go to X and study Y because Jimmys doing it".

Taco Chips

later12 wrote: »

Take the example again of maths in TCD. Points are 565.

The student who scores an A1 in Maths and Applied Maths, but gets Higher level Bs in everything else might not get in.

On the other hand, the student who gets a Higher B3 in Maths, and gets As in History, Art, English, Business, & Home Economics walks in without any problem.

Does that seem fair?

But in real life, that doesn't happen. Applicants that have a B3 in Maths and then a distribution of As in other subjects like that aren't putting Maths in TCD on their CAO. I did TP in TCD last year which is a joint degree with the maths department and I don't think anyone in Maths or TP had less than a HB2 in LC Maths. People that are gifted at Maths in that way and making the effort to pursue it at higher level are overwhelmingly choosing science based courses where it is a key component anyway.

I'm glad that they highlight the high achievers. We live in a meritocratic society and at the end of the day, these students obtained outstanding results and demonstrated a lot of intelligence, hard work and ability. Why shouldn't they be praised? And the LC results are something that affect 50,000+ people at the same time every year in this country. So why wouldn't there be a spotlight on them? It's huge news.

Red21

PieForPi wrote: »

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Yeah, what would the french know about education with their no pressure approach, they should come over here and we'd show them a thing or two. When educating young people the best method is pile um all in together and make the whole thing into one big terribly important competition thats the key to success. If you make the competition so important, a life and death situation, you'll sqeeze maximum results out of students even those who are least suited to the system will be forced to pick something up.
Leaving cert points = Happiness in later life, so work hard folks.

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

Ah, but most of the courses you're talking about also have minimum grade and subject requirements also, thus negating those who can do super in things like humanities but do badly at maths.

Well the problem was never that there were people who were bad at maths getting into prestigious maths courses. And no it doesn't negate the anomaly, it alleviates it. That's not really good enough. There isn't a course in the country that requires you to have an A in a related school subject, for example. The most a lot of them require is an HB3, and even they are in the minority. As most people would agree, there is a massive difference between getting an HB3 in Mathematics, and a HA1.

So it doesn't negate it at all.

But more importantly, it still means students use courses like English and History to tip ahead of other candidates in more scientific fields (& vice versa).

Take the example again of maths in TCD. Points are 565.

The student who scores an A1 in Maths and Applied Maths, but gets Higher level Bs in everything else might not get in.

On the other hand, the student who gets a Higher B3 in Maths, and gets As in History, Art, English, Business, & Home Economics walks in without any problem.

Does that seem fair?

PieForPi

americano787 wrote: »

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

Yes, like the values of democracy http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/08/greene-county-virginia-gop-obama-revolution_n_1501510.html

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

Except I'm not. I'm just saying that people shouldn't be allowed to use their grades into the humanities as a pole vault to clear the entry requirements into scientific or mathematical programs.

I also cited vice versa examples for the humanities, where proficiency in science & maths is not critical or relevant.

Ah, but most of the courses you're talking about also have minimum grade and subject requirements also, thus negating those who can do super in things like humanities but do badly at maths.

americano787

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

Except I'm not. I'm just saying that people shouldn't be allowed to use their grades into the humanities as a pole vault to clear the entry requirements into scientific or mathematical programs.

I also cited vice versa examples for the humanities, where proficiency in science & maths is not critical or relevant.

gara

Where's the joy or incentive to do well if failure is treated just the same? Well done to those who worked hard to get what they want!

I'm glad people make a big deal about the Leaving Cert because formal education is a big deal -it has a huge impact on how you live the rest of your life and deserves to be taken seriously

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

Our system can't accommodate that now and most likely won't for a long time to come, so we can talk about great "ifs" all day long but "ifs" is all they will remain for the time being.

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

twinytwo

later12 wrote: »

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

On what planet does that not make sense?

Exactly in this day and age being fluent in a foreign language is probally more important than maths. Besides anyone that as done engineering etc in uni knows that the leaving cert Honours maths dosent touch uni maths.

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Biotechnology was what I wanted! But in Maynooth I'm jealous now :pac: The course I'm in now has biotechnology as part of it though so it's not too bad

Hah no way? I'm not getting why the demand is so high on it though?

Then again, I'm the hardest guy to please when it comes to college courses! ;D

That sounds good anyway. If biotech is a part of your course it could open the door for you into full-on biotechnology or a transfer maybe? You'll be sorted either way.

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

They may be going off in different directions but for the time being they're coming from the same one and have to be assessed based on that. When a day comes where true modularisation and a wide range of choice exists in the second level system then I absolutely agree, but for the time being they're all being taught the same classes (mostly) and the same curriculum and thus there's no room for special weighting.

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

On what planet does that not make sense?

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

Yeah but they don't need to be on the same pitch; they're going off in completely different directions.

If nothing else, I'd be worried about the quality of candidates emerging from the universities because of the points system. Often, very intelligent students will be particularly strong in their favoured area, say mathematics.

So a real worry would be that they are being lost in the system, or being pawned off to the ITs, because their grades in the humanities did not allow them to gain a place on one of the more prestigious mathematics courses where they might have excelled.

They may be going off in different directions but for the time being they're coming from the same one and have to be assessed based on that. When a day comes where true modularisation and a wide range of choice exists in the second level system then I absolutely agree, but for the time being they're all being taught the same classes (mostly) and the same curriculum and thus there's no room for special weighting.

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Yeah, I'm not too sure what to make of this myself. Even Ruari Quinn is rethinking the scheme now.

twinytwo

PieForPi wrote: »

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Your also not taking into account, that they will only allow a certain number of A's in a subject each year... yes marking schemes can be revised if too many people are getting high results. Then you have a to look at public v private schools. I was lucky enough to do my leaving in a private school, there is no comparison. To say those who do the most work get the most points is not true.

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

I didn't say our system was fantastic, did I? I merely said theirs sounds stupid, and it does. It's a logistical nightmare, for one

They have the same system in Belgium. As a school leaver, you can do any course you want, with a few exceptions. I've never heard anything but good reports about it, and they have 2 more universities inside the Top 100 in the world than we do.

So that would be 2, then.

NegativeCreep

1ZRed wrote: »

Hopefully it turns out good. Either way it's still your ticket to college life!

Yes and no. If I sit my exam and pass it's mine but I'm not sure whether I'm up to intense college engineering Maths. I want to enjoy it not struggle along and hate it!

But I'm thinking of accepting my Biotechnology offer from NUIG so I'm happy with the options anyway

Biotechnology was what I wanted! But in Maynooth

I'm jealous now :pac: The course I'm in now has biotechnology as part of it though so it's not too bad

PieForPi

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

Yeah, those stupid French! What the **** do they know? Not like us Irish!

FFS

I didn't say our system was fantastic, did I? I merely said theirs sounds stupid, and it does. It's a logistical nightmare, for one, and puts undue stress on a system merely because it lets a load of people into courses they aren't actually capable of getting through.

If you're going to jump on hysteria and sensationalism then you may jog on elsewhere.

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone getting 600 points. Fair balls to the, I couldn't be bothered getting that amount but fair play to them

ah thanks, it's not what I originally wanted but I researched the course more and I'm pretty damn happy
Did you get offered what you wanted?

Hopefully it turns out good. Either way it's still your ticket to college life!

Yes and no. If I sit my exam and pass it's mine but I'm not sure whether I'm up to intense college engineering Maths. I want to enjoy it not struggle along and hate it!

But I'm thinking of accepting my Biotechnology offer from NUIG so I'm happy with the options anyway

Napper Hawkins

PieForPi wrote: »

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Yeah, those stupid French! What the **** do they know? Not like us Irish!

FFS

up for anything

PieForPi wrote: »

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

Yeah but they don't need to be on the same pitch; they're going off in completely different directions.

If nothing else, I'd be worried about the quality of candidates emerging from the universities because of the points system. Often, very intelligent students will be particularly strong in their favoured area, say mathematics.

So a real worry would be that they are being lost in the system, or being pawned off to the ITs, because their grades in the humanities did not allow them to gain a place on one of the more prestigious mathematics courses where they might have excelled.

NegativeCreep

1ZRed wrote: »

But once you get what you want, the points afterwards mean nothing! As long as you're happy, doing what you're interested in and bettering yourself further educationally, you're already doing pretty damn good regardless if you got 200 points or 600!

Congrats on the offer man

I don't begrudge anyone getting 600 points. Fair balls to the, I couldn't be bothered getting that amount but fair play to them

ah thanks, it's not what I originally wanted but I researched the course more and I'm pretty damn happy

Did you get offered what you wanted?

PieForPi

twinytwo wrote: »

Because its retarded, if you want to do medicine for example your looking at having to hit the 600 point mark. Which means that unless you want to do nine+ subjects you have to do honours maths,french and irish. In reality what the **** has any of those got to do with medicine. So if your really bad at languages your instantly at a disadvantage over someone who isnt, even though it will have no bearing on weather you make a good doctor or not.

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.

In france there is no points system anyone can do whatever they want to in uni so you could have 400/500 people starting out in a course and those that are willing to put in the work and want to be there stay, the rest leave after a few weeks.

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Haha yeah. I have to laugh when I hear them going on and on about Trinity and how much the points have gone up without so much as a mention of any of the IT's, which, by the way, have seen a huge jump in points this year as well.
It's just an example of the snobbery in Ireland and especially in the media. I'm happy with my 360 points and I'm delighted with the course I got as well I guess being happy with what you have doesn't sell newspapers or gain any viewers :rolleyes:

But once you get what you want, the points afterwards mean nothing! As long as you're happy, doing what you're interested in and bettering yourself further educationally, you're already doing pretty damn good regardless if you got 200 points or 600!

Congrats on the offer man

PieForPi

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

It's "unfair" in that it takes nothing but a set of exams into account, however if you venture down the road of merit based assessment where extra curricular achievements are taken into account or similar then you're potentially entering a system of extreme unfairness.

twinytwo

PieForPi wrote: »

What is unfair about it?

Because its retarded, if you want to do medicine for example your looking at having to hit the 600 point mark. Which means that unless you want to do nine+ subjects you have to do honours maths,french and irish. In reality what the **** has any of those got to do with medicine. So if your really bad at languages your instantly at a disadvantage over someone who isnt, even though it will have no bearing on weather you make a good doctor or not.

On top of that when i did my LC both my accounting and economics teachers predicated the entire paper question for question. Thats how pointless the LC is.

In france there is no points system anyone can do whatever they want to in uni so you could have 400/500 people starting out in a course and those that are willing to put in the work and want to be there stay, the rest leave after a few weeks.