leaving cert/points system obsession

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

Our system can't accommodate that now and most likely won't for a long time to come, so we can talk about great "ifs" all day long but "ifs" is all they will remain for the time being.

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

gara

Where's the joy or incentive to do well if failure is treated just the same? Well done to those who worked hard to get what they want!

I'm glad people make a big deal about the Leaving Cert because formal education is a big deal -it has a huge impact on how you live the rest of your life and deserves to be taken seriously

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

Except I'm not. I'm just saying that people shouldn't be allowed to use their grades into the humanities as a pole vault to clear the entry requirements into scientific or mathematical programs.

I also cited vice versa examples for the humanities, where proficiency in science & maths is not critical or relevant.

americano787

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

Except I'm not. I'm just saying that people shouldn't be allowed to use their grades into the humanities as a pole vault to clear the entry requirements into scientific or mathematical programs.

I also cited vice versa examples for the humanities, where proficiency in science & maths is not critical or relevant.

Ah, but most of the courses you're talking about also have minimum grade and subject requirements also, thus negating those who can do super in things like humanities but do badly at maths.

PieForPi

americano787 wrote: »

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

Yes, like the values of democracy http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/08/greene-county-virginia-gop-obama-revolution_n_1501510.html

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

Ah, but most of the courses you're talking about also have minimum grade and subject requirements also, thus negating those who can do super in things like humanities but do badly at maths.

Well the problem was never that there were people who were bad at maths getting into prestigious maths courses. And no it doesn't negate the anomaly, it alleviates it. That's not really good enough. There isn't a course in the country that requires you to have an A in a related school subject, for example. The most a lot of them require is an HB3, and even they are in the minority. As most people would agree, there is a massive difference between getting an HB3 in Mathematics, and a HA1.

So it doesn't negate it at all.

But more importantly, it still means students use courses like English and History to tip ahead of other candidates in more scientific fields (& vice versa).

Take the example again of maths in TCD. Points are 565.

The student who scores an A1 in Maths and Applied Maths, but gets Higher level Bs in everything else might not get in.

On the other hand, the student who gets a Higher B3 in Maths, and gets As in History, Art, English, Business, & Home Economics walks in without any problem.

Does that seem fair?

Red21

PieForPi wrote: »

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Yeah, what would the french know about education with their no pressure approach, they should come over here and we'd show them a thing or two. When educating young people the best method is pile um all in together and make the whole thing into one big terribly important competition thats the key to success. If you make the competition so important, a life and death situation, you'll sqeeze maximum results out of students even those who are least suited to the system will be forced to pick something up.
Leaving cert points = Happiness in later life, so work hard folks.

Taco Chips

later12 wrote: »

Take the example again of maths in TCD. Points are 565.

The student who scores an A1 in Maths and Applied Maths, but gets Higher level Bs in everything else might not get in.

On the other hand, the student who gets a Higher B3 in Maths, and gets As in History, Art, English, Business, & Home Economics walks in without any problem.

Does that seem fair?

But in real life, that doesn't happen. Applicants that have a B3 in Maths and then a distribution of As in other subjects like that aren't putting Maths in TCD on their CAO. I did TP in TCD last year which is a joint degree with the maths department and I don't think anyone in Maths or TP had less than a HB2 in LC Maths. People that are gifted at Maths in that way and making the effort to pursue it at higher level are overwhelmingly choosing science based courses where it is a key component anyway.

I'm glad that they highlight the high achievers. We live in a meritocratic society and at the end of the day, these students obtained outstanding results and demonstrated a lot of intelligence, hard work and ability. Why shouldn't they be praised? And the LC results are something that affect 50,000+ people at the same time every year in this country. So why wouldn't there be a spotlight on them? It's huge news.

Mully_2011

It will be interesting to see how many of these students drop out. The education system should try and focus a student into what they are interested in not "Ah Shure Ill do Science cos Jimmy down the road is doing it".I done a Biotech course and had no interest in it lasted two years before I dropped out but lucky I'm in a course I love now.

I know a girl who got 600 points and dropped out within a few months.

Do something you want to do not something your parents think you should be doing or "Ah shure I'll go to X and study Y because Jimmys doing it".

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

But in real life, that doesn't happen. Applicants that have a B3 in Maths and then a distribution of As in other subjects like that aren't putting Maths in TCD on their CAO. I did TP in TCD last year which is a joint degree with the maths department and I don't think anyone in Maths or TP had less than a HB2 in LC Maths.

Okay...that doesn't really matter though.

I am not talking about Maths in TCD in particular, I'm using it as an illustration of how there is a design flaw in the CAO in terms of getting the most gifted students in a specific discipline into the best courses allied to that discipline.

In short, it rewards the all-rounder, not necessarily the outstanding student in a specific area.

Owen_S

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Seems fair, it's not as if the brightest English students in the country quoting Patrick Kavanagh and Shakespeare are going to lead this country out of the energy crisis.

sock puppet

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Not really. It's much easier to score highly in English than it is in Maths.

edit: obviously that's not true in any objective sense, but Irish students do better in English than Maths

randylonghorn

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

What would be more impressive: the person who memorized six books or the person memorized 9 books?

The person who understood one of them?

Owen_S wrote: »

Seems fair, it's not as if the brightest English students in the country quoting Patrick Kavanagh and Shakespeare are going to lead this country out of the energy crisis.

Nah, they're more likely to organise Arts Festivals and generate tourist revenue.

rahmalec

PieForPi wrote: »

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

Hmm I don't know about that.

I got A1s in higher maths and physics without too much bother and got a D1 in English and C something (don't remember the exact grade) in pass Irish. Thank God I could speak fluent French because I would have done crap there as well. Got an A1 in music as well but I had a slightly unfair advantage since I learned to read music at the age of 5!

I don't think this is uncommon, especially for math orientated people. We had a fair few similar square brained people in my physics course.

randylonghorn

Actually, maths and music go hand in hand more often than people might think.

okiss

I admire the people who get 6,7,8 or 9 A1 in the leaving certificate.
Every year at this time we here about these people but for some people getting the leaving cert is a major achievement.
A lot of students don't find out enough about the course they are going for and within a year they fail exams or drop out. Just because your friends or some one you know is doing a course does not mean you should do it.
Then you have the pushy parents who want there children to do med, vet, law, eng. pharmacy ect. They did not get there themselves but little Johnny or Mary will get there. You meet these parents and all you hear about is what and were Mary and Johnny are. By the time Mary and Johnny finish college they don't want to know the parents as I have seen happen to these type of parents.
Mary and Johnny don't want there new friends see the old house, car ect the parents have.

HavingCrack

Red21 wrote: »

Yeah, what would the french know about education with their no pressure approach, they should come over here and we'd show them a thing or two. When educating young people the best method is pile um all in together and make the whole thing into one big terribly important competition thats the key to success. If you make the competition so important, a life and death situation, you'll sqeeze maximum results out of students even those who are least suited to the system will be forced to pick something up.
Leaving cert points = Happiness in later life, so work hard folks.

Interestingly, the ranking of French students in literacy and mathematics in a lot of the OECD reports was generally below that of Irish students. It wasn't by much to be fair, only one or two places at most but the French education system at primary and secondary level does not appear to be churning out tonnes of people with greater mathematical or literacy abilities than Ireland. I don't think France is necessarily the education system to emulate. The top three were South Korea, the Netherlands and New Zealand as far as I remember, I have no idea what type of school exam they use though. Preformance at 3rd level and foreign language ability are however, something else entirely.

Fight_Night

HavingCrack wrote: »

Interestingly, the ranking of French students in literacy and mathematics in a lot of the OECD reports was generally below that of Irish students. It wasn't by much to be fair, only one or two places at most but the French education system at primary and secondary level does not appear to be churning out tonnes of people with greater mathematical or literacy abilities than Ireland. I don't think France is necessarily the education system to emulate. The top three were South Korea, the Netherlands and New Zealand as far as I remember, I have no idea what type of school exam they use though. Preformance at 3rd level and foreign language ability are however, something else entirely.

Fairly sure Finland is ranked higher than the Netherlands and NZ?

Anyway my take is that the points system is too flawed. I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course. Now you can whinge and say "Ah but sure it won't change any time soon so stop complaining". Well not with that attitude it won't, but if you get enough people pressuring their local TDs we could begin to see a debate arise amongst ministers and finally get some change.

randylonghorn

Fight_Night wrote: »

I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course.

I wouldn't really have any problem with that as a basic principle, but riddle me this, if you would ...

If there are 300 applicants for a course which has 150 places, and they all have the specified requirements for the course, how do you decide who gets in?

later12

randylonghorn wrote: »

I wouldn't really have any problem with that as a basic principle, but riddle me this, if you would ...

If there are 300 applicants for a course which has 150 places, and they all have the specified requirements for the course, how do you decide who gets in?

What am I missing? How is this a riddle?

You look at the grades of each prospective candidate and either interview them or subject them to an aptitude test (something akin to the LNAT, perhaps) based, to discriminate between their respective personal capabilities.

Just like the UK system that presently exists, or similar admission methods worldwide....

Taco Chips

Fight_Night wrote: »

Fairly sure Finland is ranked higher than the Netherlands and NZ?

Anyway my take is that the points system is too flawed. I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course. Now you can whinge and say "Ah but sure it won't change any time soon so stop complaining". Well not with that attitude it won't, but if you get enough people pressuring their local TDs we could begin to see a debate arise amongst ministers and finally get some change.

I am just after coming through the points system. I had to repeat three times to get my course and I don't think that it is too flawed. There are problems, for sure. But I think in essence it is a very fair system. Academic students can excel, but so too can maybe not so academic students who instead resolve to work their arses off. If you study hard enough you can achieve with the Leaving Cert. Whats not fair about that?

Even if you have a student who mightn't be good at maths, or languages the relatively large amount of subjects studied means they can make up for their disadvantage elsewhere.

The only people who complain about being cheated by the points system are ones who could have reached their aims with some harder, or more efficient study. They're just pissed off that they didn't reach their goal so they blame the system. Anyone can succeed with the LC with the right attitude and work ethic.

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

I am just after coming through the points system. I had to repeat three times to get my course and I don't think that it is too flawed. There are problems, for sure. But I think in essence it is a very fair system. Academic students can excel, but so too can maybe not so academic students

How is that something to celebrate

If you study hard enough you can achieve with the Leaving Cert. Whats not fair about that?

Er.. maybe that not every student can afford to hang on like some slouch who stays at home and repeats the leaving certificate 3 times without any penalty, for example?

Taco Chips

later12 wrote: »

How is that something to celebrate

Because there are enough subjects to cater for all students. Those who are maths orientated (physics, applied maths), artistic (art, DCG), technical (construction, engineering, technology), creative (languages etc..)

You don't have to be academic to get an A1 in certain subjects, if you are talented and interested you are rewarded too. What isn't clear? Should I explain again?

Er.. maybe that not every student can afford to hang on like some slouch who stays at home and repeats the leaving certificate 3 times without any penalty, for example?

You don't know anything about me and the amount of work that I did over the last few years. I certainly didn't "hang on like some slouch". If you think the LC year is a doss year then you don't know much about the pressures on students these days and it's probably not worth continuing to debate with you.

Without any penalty? You want to punish kids for persevering and working hard to reach their goals? Please. Perhaps you should go back and redo your LC, it might open your eyes.

randylonghorn

later12 wrote: »

What am I missing? How is this a riddle?

You look at the grades of each prospective candidate and either interview them or subject them to an aptitude test (something akin to the LNAT, perhaps) based, to discriminate between their respective personal capabilities.

Just like the UK system that presently exists, or similar admission methods worldwide....

Which is basically the direction that Geoghegan is going in, as per the other thread, and I've already said on that thread that I would be supportive in principle, even if I could see some issues to be ironed out.

Fight_Night wrote: »

I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course.

What I took from Fight_Night's comment though (and I accept that I may be misunderstanding him) is that admission to courses should be based *only* on meeting certain pre-specified requirements for the course.

And such systems do exist, and do work, but only where supply of places or potential places on courses is greater than demand. Hell, we were probably close enough to that situation in Ireland 30 / 40 years ago, at least for the majority of courses; for some few even then demand outstripped supply.

My point is that where demand is greater than supply, there has to be *some* system to rank candidates, whether it's the points system or the type of systems you're espousing.

And for the record, I'm not really a fanboi of the points system; I can see its merits, certainly, in terms of efficiency, speed and transparency, but it has many disadvantages as well.

Namlub

later12 wrote: »

How is that something to celebrate

Well it's not if you take not-so-academic students to mean those who don't do a tap of work all year and scrape the points for their seventh or eighth choice, but there are certain people for whom even passing the LC is an achievement because of certain circumstances...

Wompa1

The year I applied for an IT course it was dropped to AQA in the second round offers because they could only get 11 people for the course. The same course is now 415. The course is also still behind the times. Irish colleges are pure muck.

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

Because there are enough subjects to cater for all students. Those who are maths orientated (physics, applied maths), artistic (art, DCG), technical (construction, engineering, technology), creative (languages etc..)

Nonsense; not all schools offer applied mathematics & physics; even at that the student would have to do well in three other non mathematical courses to gain a place in a high points course. It just doesn't make sense. One could say the same for English, for example; I'm not specifically talking about Mathematics.

Without any penalty? You want to punish kids for persevering and working hard to reach their goals? Please. Perhaps you should go back and redo your LC, it might open your eyes.

Actually I went through a system where repeat examinations were taken into account by a faculty when assessing admissions applications. If there was a genuine reason as to why the student needed to repeat, fine. But repeating three times, for example, as a matter of perseverence, would be looked on less favourably. That's a method I would advocate, yes.

I think that the high amount of repeat students is only indicative of an already unfair system of admissions, but that these repeat students aggravate the flawed system. They do this by distorting the points requirement, as they have had one extra year to get the points requirement, an option which is not open to all students.

Zab

later12 wrote: »

I think that the high amount of repeat students is only indicative of an already unfair system of admissions, but that these repeat students aggravate the flawed system. They do this by distorting the points requirement, as they have had one extra year to get the points requirement, an option which is not open to all students.

You basically want us to dump the leaving cert and get something more like the SATs.

later12

Zab wrote: »

You basically want us to dump the leaving cert and get something more like the SATs.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I don't have a problem with the degree to which the individual subject examinations make known a candidate's talent for each respective discipline. I think students who receive HA1s in Mathematics, or English, and so on, are genuinely talented individuals.

My issue is not necessarily with the examinations, but with how the examinations are valued on aggregate scores by the Universities.