Army escorting prisoners

kub · 18-08-2012 12:26AM #1

I saw on 6 one news this evening a report from the Central Criminal Court, regarding a member of the Limerick Dundon family being remanded in custody relating to a court case.

I noticed that there were Army jeeps escorting a Garda personal carrier out of the back of the court house. I wondered why the Gardai did not use their own resources, like ERU & ASU, which were used while escorting other individuals to & from court over the last few years during these various cases relating to various crimes in Limerick.

Is this a sign of further cut backs in The Gardai, just the last time that I remember the Army doing this was while the IRA were doing their deeds and in those days there as no ERU and ASU.

testicle · 18-08-2012 12:31AM

kub wrote: »

I saw on 6 one news this evening a report from the Central Criminal Court, regarding a member of the Limerick Dundon family being remanded in custody relating to a court case.

I noticed that there were Army jeeps escorting a Garda personal carrier out of the back of the court house. I wondered why the Gardai did not use their own resources, like ERU & ASU, which were used while escorting other individuals to & from court over the last few years during these various cases relating to various crimes in Limerick.

Is this a sign of further cut backs in The Gardai, just the last time that I remember the Army doing this was while the IRA were doing their deeds and in those days there as no ERU and ASU.

The Defence Forces have always escorted dangerous prisioners.

goldie fish · 18-08-2012 01:13AM

Everything going to the SCC gets all the bells and whistles. These cnuts have no hesitation ramming pistol armed gardai. They have yet to take on a well armed Army escort.

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 04:58AM

goldie fish wrote: »

Everything going to the SCC gets all the bells and whistles. These nuts have no hesitation ramming pistol armed gardai. They have yet to take on a well armed Army escort.

Is it not showing in a maybe twisted way that the Gardai cant handle them,Would it not be better for Garai and Public moral/image to have just the heavily Armed gardai doing the escort seems that they were the ones who brought the dundons down,

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

source · 18-08-2012 07:37AM

realies wrote: »

goldie fish wrote: »

Everything going to the SCC gets all the bells and whistles. These nuts have no hesitation ramming pistol armed gardai. They have yet to take on a well armed Army escort.

Is it not showing in a maybe twisted way that the Gardai cant handle them,Would it not be better for Garai and Public moral/image to have just the heavily Armed gardai doing the escort seems that they were the ones who brought the dundons down,

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

You've never heard of Det Garda Jerry Mccabe?

timmywex · 18-08-2012 08:08AM

kub wrote: »

Is this a sign of further cut backs in The Gardai, just the last time that I remember the Army doing this was while the IRA were doing their deeds and in those days there as no ERU and ASU.

Theres few enough armed Garda units to respond to calls and problems rather than having them tied up with escorting people!

Army is the best bet for anything like this tbh, same situation with cash transfers, in theory the gardai could do the armed escorts but it just ties up too many precious armed people!

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 10:22AM

source wrote: »

You've never heard of Det Garda Jerry Mccabe?

There has and always been a big difference in drug dealing/criminal gangs and Paramilitaries in this country when it comes to enforcement by the Garda and law,With the paramilitaries taken much more serious as they were/are a direct threat to the state & government,Without taken the terrible hurt and sadness from the families of the many Garda murdered here, as far as I recall there haven't been any Garda murdered by non paramilitaries in this state.Could you put a bit more thought in before your sensational post above,This is not after hours.

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 10:26AM

timex wrote: »

There's few enough armed Guard units to respond to calls and problems rather than having them tied up with escorting people!

Army is the best bet for anything like this tbh, same situation with cash transfers, in theory the gardai could do the armed escorts but it just ties up too many precious armed people!

I suppose this would be the real reason for the Army doing the escorts,But imo it would look mighty proud and give of a great image & morall boost to the force if heavily armed garda were totally in charge on days like the above OP.

source · 18-08-2012 10:31AM

realies wrote: »

source wrote: »

You've never heard of Det Garda Jerry Mccabe?

There has and always been a big difference in drug dealing/criminal gangs and Paramilitaries in this country when it comes to enforcement by the Garda and law,With the paramilitaries taken much more serious as they were/are a direct threat to the state & government,Without taken the terrible hurt and sadness from the families of the many Garda murdered here, as far as I recall there haven't been any Garda murdered by non paramilitaries in this state.Could you put a bit more thought in before your sensational post above,This is not after hours.

You say paramilitries I say scumbag criminal. I don't differentiate between the two. They're all scum as far as I'm concerned.

I've never been a sensationalist poster, I've always tried to post reasonably on this and every other forum on this site. So how dare you accuse me of such.

You stated that you've never heard of criminals attacking armed Gardai, I gave you an example of one such situation.

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 10:49AM

source wrote: »

You say paramilitaries I say scumbag criminal. I don't differentiate between the two. They're all scum as far as I'm concerned.

I've never been a sensationalist poster, I've always tried to post reasonably on this and every other forum on this site. So how dare you accuse me of such.

You stated that you've never heard of criminals attacking armed Gardai, I gave you an example of one such situation.

If you cant or don't want to take that on board what I was saying that is your prerogative,But any member I talk to would have known the difference as does the law of the land in which criminals/paramilitaries are treated.And before you jump to any conclusions I am not at all condoning any paramilitary violence in any shape or form,Just pointing out that there are differences whether you like them or not.

goldie fish · 18-08-2012 11:09AM

realies wrote: »

If you cant or don't want to take that on board what I was saying that is your prerogative,But any member I talk to would have known the difference as does the law of the land in which criminals/paramilitaries are treated.And before you jump to any conclusions I am not at all condoning any paramilitary violence in any shape or form,Just pointing out that there are differences whether you like them or not.

There is no difference. This is why this type of scumbag criminal is going to the special criminal court same as the other type of scumbag criminal.
Would you only be happy when they do kill an armed garda? I can recall 2 recent incidents where ordinary scumbag criminals have fired on armed gardai(as opposed to scumbag criminals with a political wing).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0721/murtaghk.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/force-used-by-armed-garda-in-foiled-post-office-robbery-proportionate-2911504.html

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 11:34AM

goldie fish wrote: »

There is no difference. This is why this type of scumbag criminal is going to the special criminal court same as the other type of scumbag criminal.
Would you only be happy when they do kill an armed gardaI can recall 2 recent incidents where ordinary scumbag criminals have fired on armed gardai(as opposed to scumbag criminals with a political wing).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0721/murtaghk.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/force-used-by-armed-garda-in-foiled-post-office-robbery-proportionate-2911504.html

Why are you asking would I be happy ? I certainly would not be,and I totally reject your assumption that I would. Also you & source are bringing this way of OP topic,

But while your in your googling mode, can you show me where non paramilitary criminals have shot & killed a Garda in this state and also if the killers of Garda GmG where the same as ordinary criminals why where they released ? why have paramilitaries got there own prison and in fact control there own landings there.

Here is a classic example of the difference.On June 6 1996 Detective Garda Jerry McCabe was murdered by members of the Provos during an attempted robbery at a post office in Adare, Co Limerick.
Less than three weeks later investigative journalist, Veronica Guerin, was murdered in her car on the Naas Road by a masked gunman as she waited at a set of traffic lights.The complete difference in which these cases where pursued by the law of the land and the final outcome is there for everyone to see as has always been the case between criminal/drug gangs and paramilitary activities.

Dionysius2 · 18-08-2012 11:51AM

realies wrote: »

Here is a classic example of the difference.On June 6 1996 Detective Garda Jerry McCabe was murdered by members of the Provos during an attempted robbery at a post office in Adare, Co Limerick.
Less than three weeks later investigative journalist, Veronica Guerin, was murdered in her car on the Naas Road by a masked gunman as she waited at a set of traffic lights.The complete difference in which these cases where pursued by the law of the land and the final outcome is there for everyone to see as has always been the case between criminal/drug gangs and paramilitary activities.

Just wondering now what is meant by that ? Seems to me that depending on your own stance, people see the follow-on situations differently.
VG led to CAB but what did JMcC lead to ?

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 02:37PM

Dionysius 2 wrote: »

Just wondering now what is meant by that ? Seems to me that depending on your own stance, people see the follow-on situations differently.
VG led to CAB but what did JMcC lead to ?

As far as I remember People where trying to come to terms of Det gerry mccabe being killed when the murder of veronica guerin happened,There was a feeling that law & order had totally broken down and revulsion and fear was felt throughout Ireland,As it became clear that a multi million pound gang had killed VG,CAB was created to specifically targeted the then untouchables of the gangs by going after there money and assets.

GJmG legacy is in the massive turnout at his funeral and the political fall out it had for SF, I think its a fact that VG is remembered though more so than the unfortunate Garda.Not from personnel friends,comrades and family of course.There is a fellowship in new york http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_College_of_Criminal_Justice in his honour.

Atlantis50 · 18-08-2012 04:47PM

realies wrote: »

Why are you asking would I be happy ? I certainly would not be,and I totally reject your assumption that I would. Also you & source are bringing this way of OP topic,

But while your in your googling mode, can you show me where non paramilitary criminals have shot & killed a Garda in this state and also if the killers of Garda GmG where the same as ordinary criminals why where they released ? why have paramilitaries got there own prison and in fact control there own landings there.

Here is a classic example of the difference.On June 6 1996 Detective Garda Jerry McCabe was murdered by members of the Provos during an attempted robbery at a post office in Adare, Co Limerick.
Less than three weeks later investigative journalist, Veronica Guerin, was murdered in her car on the Naas Road by a masked gunman as she waited at a set of traffic lights.The complete difference in which these cases where pursued by the law of the land and the final outcome is there for everyone to see as has always been the case between criminal/drug gangs and paramilitary activities.

'Shot & killed' is not a reasonable measure of the dangers Gardai face from so-called 'ordinary criminals'. What about stabbings (attempted included), beatings and rammings. But if we stick with firearms, a more reasonable question would be have there been instances where Gardai were shot or shot at. Here are just two instances, there are undoubtedly more where they were shot at but not hit:

"A MOTORCYCLE garda shot in Dublin's north inner city two years ago has yet to return to work -- but minor charges have been brought following his shooting.

Garda Paul Sherlock was fired on after he stopped a car whose driver was acting suspiciously, as it drove along the North Strand on September 25, 2007.

The 36-year-old officer, who worked in the Traffic Corps, suffered serious injuries to his side and leg in the incident, and almost died as a result." [...]

http://www.herald.ie/news/motorbike-garda-is-still-off-work-two-years-after-shooting-1897666.html

More recently:

"A MAN shot himself dead last night after opening fire on two unarmed garda officers when his van was stopped as part of a routine patrol.
The Irish Independent has learned that up to seven shots were discharged from two guns during the harrowing incident at Newport, Co Tipperary.
The 45-year-old man, who is understood to be from Limerick city, was pronounced dead at the scene shortly before 8pm last night.
Two garda officers -- a female sergeant and a male garda officer -- narrowly escaped with their lives during the gun attack when they had to take cover behind their garda vehicle as the motorist opened fire on them with a rifle after they had just wrested a shotgun from him."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-fires-seven-times-at-gardai-then-kills-himself-3004044.html

Oh and you're wrong about the killers of Det. Gda McCabe being released under the good friday agreement ('Two men serving jail sentences for the killing of Garda Jerry McCabe have lost their bid to be released under the Good Friday Agreement.' http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1219/mccabej.html). They were released after serving their sentences with remission (http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/ferris-condemned-for-meeting-mccabe-killers-1-2189822).

Sunnyisland · 18-08-2012 05:56PM

Atlantis50 wrote: »

'Shot & killed' is not a reasonable measure of the dangers Gardai face from so-called 'ordinary criminals'. What about stabbings (attempted included), beatings and rammings. But if we stick with firearms, a more reasonable question would be have there been instances where Gardai were shot or shot at. Here are just two instances, there are undoubtedly more where they were shot at but not hit:

"A MOTORCYCLE garda shot in Dublin's north inner city two years ago has yet to return to work -- but minor charges have been brought following his shooting.

Garda Paul Sherlock was fired on after he stopped a car whose driver was acting suspiciously, as it drove along the North Strand on September 25, 2007.

The 36-year-old officer, who worked in the Traffic Corps, suffered serious injuries to his side and leg in the incident, and almost died as a result." [...]

http://www.herald.ie/news/motorbike-garda-is-still-off-work-two-years-after-shooting-1897666.html

More recently:

"A MAN shot himself dead last night after opening fire on two unarmed garda officers when his van was stopped as part of a routine patrol.
The Irish Independent has learned that up to seven shots were discharged from two guns during the harrowing incident at Newport, Co Tipperary.
The 45-year-old man, who is understood to be from Limerick city, was pronounced dead at the scene shortly before 8pm last night.
Two garda officers -- a female sergeant and a male garda officer -- narrowly escaped with their lives during the gun attack when they had to take cover behind their garda vehicle as the motorist opened fire on them with a rifle after they had just wrested a shotgun from him."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-fires-seven-times-at-gardai-then-kills-himself-3004044.html

Oh and you're wrong about the killers of Det. Gda McCabe being released under the good friday agreement ('Two men serving jail sentences for the killing of Garda Jerry McCabe have lost their bid to be released under the Good Friday Agreement.' http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1219/mccabej.html). They were released after serving their sentences with remission (http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/ferris-condemned-for-meeting-mccabe-killers-1-2189822).

Where are you going with all this..really.where have I mentioned anything about the GFA or them been released... Read the OP, Read my answers.

goldie fish · 19-08-2012 12:24AM

You said ordinary criminals have not shot gardai. We have now provided 4 examples of the opposite being the case, but you have ignored them.

Zambia · 19-08-2012 02:31AM

realies wrote: »

Where are you going with all this..really.where have I mentioned anything about the GFA or them been released... Read the OP, Read my answers.

realies wrote: »

But while your in your googling mode, can you show me where non paramilitary criminals have shot & killed a Garda in this state and also if the killers of Garda GmG where the same as ordinary criminals why where they released ?

You posted the above.

Your in a hole mate stop digging

Sunnyisland · 19-08-2012 08:31AM

goldie fish wrote: »

You said ordinary criminals have not shot gardai. We have now provided 4 examples of the opposite being the case, but you have ignored them.

Maybe you should read all of my posts again as in no where have I just stated that.

Terrontress · 19-08-2012 08:34AM

Escorting prisoners, especially those convicted of gang / drug offences, should be a job for a country's police force. if they are incapable of dealing with a threat then they should look at how they can improve their capabilities.

Maybe the army is cheaper than Gardai or, given the few military requirements of Ireland, it utilises an otherwise wasted resource.

Sunnyisland · 19-08-2012 08:38AM

Zambia wrote: »

You posted the above.

Your in a hole mate stop digging

In the context of what we were discussing here would that not prove that Paramilitaries and armed gangs were always treated differently by the Courts and the gardai themselves,Its my belief they where,and whether people here belive there scumbags and murderous scum etc etc is beside the point,They were and have always been treated differently by all arms of the justice department.

MagicSean · 19-08-2012 09:11AM

realies wrote: »

In the context of what we were discussing here would that not prove that Paramilitaries and armed gangs were always treated differently by the Courts and the gardai themselves,Its my belief they where,and whether people here belive there scumbags and murderous scum etc etc is beside the point,They were and have always been treated differently by all arms of the justice department.

They aren't anymore. They all go to the Special Criminal court. Gangland figures and terrorists are treated the same.

But if you want to look at attacks by gangs alone we can go back as far as Martin Cahil, who stated that he once tried to shoot a Garda who was chasing him but his gun jammed. The Viper attacked a Garda protecting him in hospital. The Garda subsequently died. A garda in Crumlin on protection detail outside a house was shot and left for dead. The person he was protecting told him to stop bleeding on his driveway. The Garda shot during the traffic stop has already been mentioned. Gardaí are often fired at. Just because you don't read about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.There was a story out of Naas a few months back in relation to a high speed chase and exchange of gunfire. Did you see that one? Attacks on prisoner transports are not unheard of either.

Sunnyisland · 19-08-2012 09:40AM

Magic Sean wrote: »

They aren't anymore. They all go to the Special Criminal court. Gangland figures and terrorists are treated the same.

But if you want to look at attacks by gangs alone we can go back as far as Martin Cahill, who stated that he once tried to shoot a Garda who was chasing him but his gun jammed. The Viper attacked a Garda protecting him in hospital. The Garda subsequently died. A garda in Crumlin on protection detail outside a house was shot and left for dead. The person he was protecting told him to stop bleeding on his driveway. The Garda shot during the traffic stop has already been mentioned. Gardaí are often fired at. Just because you don't read about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.There was a story out of Nasa few months back in relation to a high speed chase and exchange of gunfire. Did you see that one? Attacks on prisoner transports are not unheard of either.

I agree with everything you have said there,However In the context of this thread I have never said there was not armed attacks on garda,I am not that naive,I was trying to make the point that the gardai would be seen in better light in escorting the prisoners to and from courts and pointed out that no Gardai have ever being murdered by non paramilitaries before.

It was then posted what about GmcC and I posted There has and always been a big difference in drug dealing/criminal gangs and Paramilitaries in this country when it comes to enforcement by the Garda and law which was true but maybe not as much now.

Some posters here disagree with that thats fine.

MagicSean · 19-08-2012 09:45AM

realies wrote: »

I agree with everything you have said there,However In the context of this thread I have never said there was not armed attacks on garda,

realies wrote: »

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

I must have misunderstood this then. What did you mean by it?

Sunnyisland · 19-08-2012 10:10AM

Magic Sean wrote: »

I must have misunderstood this then. What did you mean by it?

Yes Magicscan it seems a few posters have. And I should have worded my post more appropriately.

When I said attacked, I assumed we were talking about an attack on a dangerous high profile prisoners escort,Then GmcC was brought into it and then the topic went off topic.

I am aware of Thomas bomber clarke escape organised by the same people who killed VG.

Pappa Charlie · 19-08-2012 11:10AM

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

unichall · 19-08-2012 11:47AM

You can't do right for wrong. if fully loaded eru were to do these escorts and be on tv on 6 one news you'd have people giving out about a waste of resources, would it not be better off having the eru out patrolling and let the army who ' do nothing' all day to do these things

that's what's done now and now its the gardai can't handle the job, fair play OP starting a discussion on something you clearly have no clue

Kimbot · 19-08-2012 11:51AM

OP, the member of the dundon family could currently be serving in portlaoise prison, all of their prisoners get army escorts because they are in the highest security prison in the country (which is patrolled by the army) me thinks.

the culture of deference · 19-08-2012 12:13PM

Why do prisoners need to be transferred to court. It is a complete waste of resources. 3 out of every 4 visits to court are for remand to a future date.

I can skype with family members instantly around the world.

MagicSean · 19-08-2012 12:20PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

I would expect they were supported by the ERU or RSU. As to army involvement with prisoners. There are a number of reasons why the army would be better suited to protection details than armed Gardaí.

Terrontress · 19-08-2012 12:26PM

unichall wrote: »

You can't do right for wrong. if fully loaded eru were to do these escorts and be on tv on 6 one news you'd have people giving out about a waste of resources, would it not be better off having the eru out patrolling and let the army who ' do nothing' all day to do these things

that's what's done now and now its the gardai can't handle the job, fair play OP starting a discussion on something you clearly have no clue

I don't think it is fair to suggest the army do nothing.

Army escorting prisoners

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