Army escorting prisoners

kub

I saw on 6 one news this evening a report from the Central Criminal Court, regarding a member of the Limerick Dundon family being remanded in custody relating to a court case.

I noticed that there were Army jeeps escorting a Garda personal carrier out of the back of the court house. I wondered why the Gardai did not use their own resources, like ERU & ASU, which were used while escorting other individuals to & from court over the last few years during these various cases relating to various crimes in Limerick.

Is this a sign of further cut backs in The Gardai, just the last time that I remember the Army doing this was while the IRA were doing their deeds and in those days there as no ERU and ASU.

testicle

kub wrote: »

I saw on 6 one news this evening a report from the Central Criminal Court, regarding a member of the Limerick Dundon family being remanded in custody relating to a court case.

I noticed that there were Army jeeps escorting a Garda personal carrier out of the back of the court house. I wondered why the Gardai did not use their own resources, like ERU & ASU, which were used while escorting other individuals to & from court over the last few years during these various cases relating to various crimes in Limerick.

Is this a sign of further cut backs in The Gardai, just the last time that I remember the Army doing this was while the IRA were doing their deeds and in those days there as no ERU and ASU.

The Defence Forces have always escorted dangerous prisioners.

goldie fish

Everything going to the SCC gets all the bells and whistles. These cnuts have no hesitation ramming pistol armed gardai. They have yet to take on a well armed Army escort.

Sunnyisland

goldie fish wrote: »

Everything going to the SCC gets all the bells and whistles. These nuts have no hesitation ramming pistol armed gardai. They have yet to take on a well armed Army escort.

Is it not showing in a maybe twisted way that the Gardai cant handle them,Would it not be better for Garai and Public moral/image to have just the heavily Armed gardai doing the escort seems that they were the ones who brought the dundons down,

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

source

realies wrote: »

goldie fish wrote: »

Everything going to the SCC gets all the bells and whistles. These nuts have no hesitation ramming pistol armed gardai. They have yet to take on a well armed Army escort.

Is it not showing in a maybe twisted way that the Gardai cant handle them,Would it not be better for Garai and Public moral/image to have just the heavily Armed gardai doing the escort seems that they were the ones who brought the dundons down,

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

You've never heard of Det Garda Jerry Mccabe?

timmywex

kub wrote: »

Is this a sign of further cut backs in The Gardai, just the last time that I remember the Army doing this was while the IRA were doing their deeds and in those days there as no ERU and ASU.

Theres few enough armed Garda units to respond to calls and problems rather than having them tied up with escorting people!

Army is the best bet for anything like this tbh, same situation with cash transfers, in theory the gardai could do the armed escorts but it just ties up too many precious armed people!

Sunnyisland

source wrote: »

You've never heard of Det Garda Jerry Mccabe?

There has and always been a big difference in drug dealing/criminal gangs and Paramilitaries in this country when it comes to enforcement by the Garda and law,With the paramilitaries taken much more serious as they were/are a direct threat to the state & government,Without taken the terrible hurt and sadness from the families of the many Garda murdered here, as far as I recall there haven't been any Garda murdered by non paramilitaries in this state.Could you put a bit more thought in before your sensational post above,This is not after hours.

Sunnyisland

timex wrote: »

There's few enough armed Guard units to respond to calls and problems rather than having them tied up with escorting people!

Army is the best bet for anything like this tbh, same situation with cash transfers, in theory the gardai could do the armed escorts but it just ties up too many precious armed people!

I suppose this would be the real reason for the Army doing the escorts,But imo it would look mighty proud and give of a great image & morall boost to the force if heavily armed garda were totally in charge on days like the above OP.

source

realies wrote: »

source wrote: »

You've never heard of Det Garda Jerry Mccabe?

There has and always been a big difference in drug dealing/criminal gangs and Paramilitaries in this country when it comes to enforcement by the Garda and law,With the paramilitaries taken much more serious as they were/are a direct threat to the state & government,Without taken the terrible hurt and sadness from the families of the many Garda murdered here, as far as I recall there haven't been any Garda murdered by non paramilitaries in this state.Could you put a bit more thought in before your sensational post above,This is not after hours.

You say paramilitries I say scumbag criminal. I don't differentiate between the two. They're all scum as far as I'm concerned.

I've never been a sensationalist poster, I've always tried to post reasonably on this and every other forum on this site. So how dare you accuse me of such.

You stated that you've never heard of criminals attacking armed Gardai, I gave you an example of one such situation.

Sunnyisland

source wrote: »

You say paramilitaries I say scumbag criminal. I don't differentiate between the two. They're all scum as far as I'm concerned.

I've never been a sensationalist poster, I've always tried to post reasonably on this and every other forum on this site. So how dare you accuse me of such.

You stated that you've never heard of criminals attacking armed Gardai, I gave you an example of one such situation.

If you cant or don't want to take that on board what I was saying that is your prerogative,But any member I talk to would have known the difference as does the law of the land in which criminals/paramilitaries are treated.And before you jump to any conclusions I am not at all condoning any paramilitary violence in any shape or form,Just pointing out that there are differences whether you like them or not.

goldie fish

realies wrote: »

If you cant or don't want to take that on board what I was saying that is your prerogative,But any member I talk to would have known the difference as does the law of the land in which criminals/paramilitaries are treated.And before you jump to any conclusions I am not at all condoning any paramilitary violence in any shape or form,Just pointing out that there are differences whether you like them or not.

There is no difference. This is why this type of scumbag criminal is going to the special criminal court same as the other type of scumbag criminal.
Would you only be happy when they do kill an armed garda? I can recall 2 recent incidents where ordinary scumbag criminals have fired on armed gardai(as opposed to scumbag criminals with a political wing).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0721/murtaghk.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/force-used-by-armed-garda-in-foiled-post-office-robbery-proportionate-2911504.html

Sunnyisland

goldie fish wrote: »

There is no difference. This is why this type of scumbag criminal is going to the special criminal court same as the other type of scumbag criminal.
Would you only be happy when they do kill an armed gardaI can recall 2 recent incidents where ordinary scumbag criminals have fired on armed gardai(as opposed to scumbag criminals with a political wing).

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0721/murtaghk.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/force-used-by-armed-garda-in-foiled-post-office-robbery-proportionate-2911504.html

Why are you asking would I be happy ? I certainly would not be,and I totally reject your assumption that I would. Also you & source are bringing this way of OP topic,

But while your in your googling mode, can you show me where non paramilitary criminals have shot & killed a Garda in this state and also if the killers of Garda GmG where the same as ordinary criminals why where they released ? why have paramilitaries got there own prison and in fact control there own landings there.


Here is a classic example of the difference.On June 6 1996 Detective Garda Jerry McCabe was murdered by members of the Provos during an attempted robbery at a post office in Adare, Co Limerick.
Less than three weeks later investigative journalist, Veronica Guerin, was murdered in her car on the Naas Road by a masked gunman as she waited at a set of traffic lights.The complete difference in which these cases where pursued by the law of the land and the final outcome is there for everyone to see as has always been the case between criminal/drug gangs and paramilitary activities.

Dionysius2

realies wrote: »

Here is a classic example of the difference.On June 6 1996 Detective Garda Jerry McCabe was murdered by members of the Provos during an attempted robbery at a post office in Adare, Co Limerick.
Less than three weeks later investigative journalist, Veronica Guerin, was murdered in her car on the Naas Road by a masked gunman as she waited at a set of traffic lights.The complete difference in which these cases where pursued by the law of the land and the final outcome is there for everyone to see as has always been the case between criminal/drug gangs and paramilitary activities.

Just wondering now what is meant by that ? Seems to me that depending on your own stance, people see the follow-on situations differently.
VG led to CAB but what did JMcC lead to ?

Sunnyisland

Dionysius 2 wrote: »

Just wondering now what is meant by that ? Seems to me that depending on your own stance, people see the follow-on situations differently.
VG led to CAB but what did JMcC lead to ?

As far as I remember People where trying to come to terms of Det gerry mccabe being killed when the murder of veronica guerin happened,There was a feeling that law & order had totally broken down and revulsion and fear was felt throughout Ireland,As it became clear that a multi million pound gang had killed VG,CAB was created to specifically targeted the then untouchables of the gangs by going after there money and assets.

GJmG legacy is in the massive turnout at his funeral and the political fall out it had for SF, I think its a fact that VG is remembered though more so than the unfortunate Garda.Not from personnel friends,comrades and family of course.There is a fellowship in new york http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_College_of_Criminal_Justice in his honour.

Atlantis50

realies wrote: »

Why are you asking would I be happy ? I certainly would not be,and I totally reject your assumption that I would. Also you & source are bringing this way of OP topic,

But while your in your googling mode, can you show me where non paramilitary criminals have shot & killed a Garda in this state and also if the killers of Garda GmG where the same as ordinary criminals why where they released ? why have paramilitaries got there own prison and in fact control there own landings there.


Here is a classic example of the difference.On June 6 1996 Detective Garda Jerry McCabe was murdered by members of the Provos during an attempted robbery at a post office in Adare, Co Limerick.
Less than three weeks later investigative journalist, Veronica Guerin, was murdered in her car on the Naas Road by a masked gunman as she waited at a set of traffic lights.The complete difference in which these cases where pursued by the law of the land and the final outcome is there for everyone to see as has always been the case between criminal/drug gangs and paramilitary activities.

'Shot & killed' is not a reasonable measure of the dangers Gardai face from so-called 'ordinary criminals'. What about stabbings (attempted included), beatings and rammings. But if we stick with firearms, a more reasonable question would be have there been instances where Gardai were shot or shot at. Here are just two instances, there are undoubtedly more where they were shot at but not hit:

"A MOTORCYCLE garda shot in Dublin's north inner city two years ago has yet to return to work -- but minor charges have been brought following his shooting.

Garda Paul Sherlock was fired on after he stopped a car whose driver was acting suspiciously, as it drove along the North Strand on September 25, 2007.

The 36-year-old officer, who worked in the Traffic Corps, suffered serious injuries to his side and leg in the incident, and almost died as a result." [...]

http://www.herald.ie/news/motorbike-garda-is-still-off-work-two-years-after-shooting-1897666.html

More recently:

"A MAN shot himself dead last night after opening fire on two unarmed garda officers when his van was stopped as part of a routine patrol.
The Irish Independent has learned that up to seven shots were discharged from two guns during the harrowing incident at Newport, Co Tipperary.
The 45-year-old man, who is understood to be from Limerick city, was pronounced dead at the scene shortly before 8pm last night.
Two garda officers -- a female sergeant and a male garda officer -- narrowly escaped with their lives during the gun attack when they had to take cover behind their garda vehicle as the motorist opened fire on them with a rifle after they had just wrested a shotgun from him."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-fires-seven-times-at-gardai-then-kills-himself-3004044.html

Oh and you're wrong about the killers of Det. Gda McCabe being released under the good friday agreement ('Two men serving jail sentences for the killing of Garda Jerry McCabe have lost their bid to be released under the Good Friday Agreement.' http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1219/mccabej.html). They were released after serving their sentences with remission (http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/ferris-condemned-for-meeting-mccabe-killers-1-2189822).

Sunnyisland

Atlantis50 wrote: »

'Shot & killed' is not a reasonable measure of the dangers Gardai face from so-called 'ordinary criminals'. What about stabbings (attempted included), beatings and rammings. But if we stick with firearms, a more reasonable question would be have there been instances where Gardai were shot or shot at. Here are just two instances, there are undoubtedly more where they were shot at but not hit:

"A MOTORCYCLE garda shot in Dublin's north inner city two years ago has yet to return to work -- but minor charges have been brought following his shooting.

Garda Paul Sherlock was fired on after he stopped a car whose driver was acting suspiciously, as it drove along the North Strand on September 25, 2007.

The 36-year-old officer, who worked in the Traffic Corps, suffered serious injuries to his side and leg in the incident, and almost died as a result." [...]

http://www.herald.ie/news/motorbike-garda-is-still-off-work-two-years-after-shooting-1897666.html

More recently:

"A MAN shot himself dead last night after opening fire on two unarmed garda officers when his van was stopped as part of a routine patrol.
The Irish Independent has learned that up to seven shots were discharged from two guns during the harrowing incident at Newport, Co Tipperary.
The 45-year-old man, who is understood to be from Limerick city, was pronounced dead at the scene shortly before 8pm last night.
Two garda officers -- a female sergeant and a male garda officer -- narrowly escaped with their lives during the gun attack when they had to take cover behind their garda vehicle as the motorist opened fire on them with a rifle after they had just wrested a shotgun from him."

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/man-fires-seven-times-at-gardai-then-kills-himself-3004044.html

Oh and you're wrong about the killers of Det. Gda McCabe being released under the good friday agreement ('Two men serving jail sentences for the killing of Garda Jerry McCabe have lost their bid to be released under the Good Friday Agreement.' http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1219/mccabej.html). They were released after serving their sentences with remission (http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/ferris-condemned-for-meeting-mccabe-killers-1-2189822).

Where are you going with all this..really.where have I mentioned anything about the GFA or them been released... Read the OP, Read my answers.

goldie fish

You said ordinary criminals have not shot gardai. We have now provided 4 examples of the opposite being the case, but you have ignored them.

Zambia

realies wrote: »

Where are you going with all this..really.where have I mentioned anything about the GFA or them been released... Read the OP, Read my answers.

realies wrote: »

But while your in your googling mode, can you show me where non paramilitary criminals have shot & killed a Garda in this state and also if the killers of Garda GmG where the same as ordinary criminals why where they released ?

You posted the above.

Your in a hole mate stop digging

Sunnyisland

goldie fish wrote: »

You said ordinary criminals have not shot gardai. We have now provided 4 examples of the opposite being the case, but you have ignored them.

Maybe you should read all of my posts again as in no where have I just stated that.

Terrontress

Escorting prisoners, especially those convicted of gang / drug offences, should be a job for a country's police force. if they are incapable of dealing with a threat then they should look at how they can improve their capabilities.

Maybe the army is cheaper than Gardai or, given the few military requirements of Ireland, it utilises an otherwise wasted resource.

Sunnyisland

Zambia wrote: »

You posted the above.

Your in a hole mate stop digging

In the context of what we were discussing here would that not prove that Paramilitaries and armed gangs were always treated differently by the Courts and the gardai themselves,Its my belief they where,and whether people here belive there scumbags and murderous scum etc etc is beside the point,They were and have always been treated differently by all arms of the justice department.

MagicSean

realies wrote: »

In the context of what we were discussing here would that not prove that Paramilitaries and armed gangs were always treated differently by the Courts and the gardai themselves,Its my belief they where,and whether people here belive there scumbags and murderous scum etc etc is beside the point,They were and have always been treated differently by all arms of the justice department.

They aren't anymore. They all go to the Special Criminal court. Gangland figures and terrorists are treated the same.

But if you want to look at attacks by gangs alone we can go back as far as Martin Cahil, who stated that he once tried to shoot a Garda who was chasing him but his gun jammed. The Viper attacked a Garda protecting him in hospital. The Garda subsequently died. A garda in Crumlin on protection detail outside a house was shot and left for dead. The person he was protecting told him to stop bleeding on his driveway. The Garda shot during the traffic stop has already been mentioned. Gardaí are often fired at. Just because you don't read about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.There was a story out of Naas a few months back in relation to a high speed chase and exchange of gunfire. Did you see that one? Attacks on prisoner transports are not unheard of either.

Sunnyisland

Magic Sean wrote: »

They aren't anymore. They all go to the Special Criminal court. Gangland figures and terrorists are treated the same.

But if you want to look at attacks by gangs alone we can go back as far as Martin Cahill, who stated that he once tried to shoot a Garda who was chasing him but his gun jammed. The Viper attacked a Garda protecting him in hospital. The Garda subsequently died. A garda in Crumlin on protection detail outside a house was shot and left for dead. The person he was protecting told him to stop bleeding on his driveway. The Garda shot during the traffic stop has already been mentioned. Gardaí are often fired at. Just because you don't read about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.There was a story out of Nasa few months back in relation to a high speed chase and exchange of gunfire. Did you see that one? Attacks on prisoner transports are not unheard of either.

I agree with everything you have said there,However In the context of this thread I have never said there was not armed attacks on garda,I am not that naive,I was trying to make the point that the gardai would be seen in better light in escorting the prisoners to and from courts and pointed out that no Gardai have ever being murdered by non paramilitaries before.

It was then posted what about GmcC and I posted There has and always been a big difference in drug dealing/criminal gangs and Paramilitaries in this country when it comes to enforcement by the Garda and law which was true but maybe not as much now.

Some posters here disagree with that thats fine.

MagicSean

realies wrote: »

I agree with everything you have said there,However In the context of this thread I have never said there was not armed attacks on garda,

realies wrote: »

Have never heard of no criminals attacking armed Gardai, No disrespect to the army or the garda here.

I must have misunderstood this then. What did you mean by it?

Sunnyisland

Magic Sean wrote: »

I must have misunderstood this then. What did you mean by it?

Yes Magicscan it seems a few posters have. And I should have worded my post more appropriately.

When I said attacked, I assumed we were talking about an attack on a dangerous high profile prisoners escort,Then GmcC was brought into it and then the topic went off topic.




I am aware of Thomas bomber clarke escape organised by the same people who killed VG.

Pappa Charlie

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

unichall

You can't do right for wrong. if fully loaded eru were to do these escorts and be on tv on 6 one news you'd have people giving out about a waste of resources, would it not be better off having the eru out patrolling and let the army who ' do nothing' all day to do these things

that's what's done now and now its the gardai can't handle the job, fair play OP starting a discussion on something you clearly have no clue

Kimbot

OP, the member of the dundon family could currently be serving in portlaoise prison, all of their prisoners get army escorts because they are in the highest security prison in the country (which is patrolled by the army) me thinks.

the culture of deference

Why do prisoners need to be transferred to court. It is a complete waste of resources. 3 out of every 4 visits to court are for remand to a future date.

I can skype with family members instantly around the world.

MagicSean

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

I would expect they were supported by the ERU or RSU. As to army involvement with prisoners. There are a number of reasons why the army would be better suited to protection details than armed Gardaí.

Terrontress

unichall wrote: »

You can't do right for wrong. if fully loaded eru were to do these escorts and be on tv on 6 one news you'd have people giving out about a waste of resources, would it not be better off having the eru out patrolling and let the army who ' do nothing' all day to do these things

that's what's done now and now its the gardai can't handle the job, fair play OP starting a discussion on something you clearly have no clue

I don't think it is fair to suggest the army do nothing.

Terrontress

MagicSean wrote: »

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

I would expect they were supported by the ERU or RSU. As to army involvement with prisoners. There are a number of reasons why the army would be better suited to protection details than armed Gardaí.

There may be reasons but it doesn't make it right! The Police should be allowed to uphold law and order in peacetime.

There may be reasons why the UK have introduced yellow pack pcsos, decent people who would like to become police officers, and why they are shipping police work out to G4S. Doesn't make it right.

I am sure there are many Gardai who would be happy to be trained to address the threats of criminal gangs but as it is, it looks like AGS is unable to fully uphold law and order without military assistance.

Sunnyisland

the culture of deference wrote: »

Why do prisoners need to be transferred to court. It is a complete waste of resources. 3 out of every 4 visits to court are for remand to a future date.

I can skype with family members instantly around the world.

I agree, Why cant the prisoner already being held in custody (as in this case) not be dealt with through video link ? It was always going to be a remand.

Pappa Charlie

MagicSean wrote: »

I would expect they were supported by the ERU or RSU. As to army involvement with prisoners. There are a number of reasons why the army would be better suited to protection details than armed Gardaí.

If its planned I'm sure they would but sometimes these guys are caught at incidents by unarmed gardai.

MagicSean

Terrontress wrote: »

There may be reasons but it doesn't make it right! The Police should be allowed to uphold law and order in peacetime.

There may be reasons why the UK have introduced yellow pack pcsos, decent people who would like to become police officers, and why they are shipping police work out to G4S. Doesn't make it right.

I am sure there are many Gardai who would be happy to be trained to address the threats of criminal gangs but as it is, it looks like AGS is unable to fully uphold law and order without military assistance.

It's not about training. It goes to the core of what the Gardaí are and what the army are and what their respective roles are in society.

WilcoOut

Terrontress wrote: »

it looks like AGS is unable to fully uphold law and order without military assistance.

the gouger is going to court

what more of a resounding answer to the question 'can AGS fully uphold the law?' can you get!?

l

r3nu4l

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I have to say I'm always slightly amused when I see the army escorts from the special criminal courts and the seriousness in which they are taken. I'm not having a cut at the Army as they are only doing what they are told but the question I would ask is where were the army when these guys were being arrested by Gardai for the crimes they committed. Its at that point that the threat to anyone is at its greatest from these criminals and their gangs. Chances are two uniform unarmed Gardai had to go to the inital call in a clapped out 04 Focus. Put on the bells and whistles for the Telly and impress the Joe public!

Its' pretty simple really. In the last few weeks we have seen a former Garda write about how poorly equipped Gardaí are. Clapped out patrol cars, sharing of patrol cars etc.

The options are:

• Get the ERU to escort prisoners
• Get the army to do it
• Spend a lot of money upping the equipment level and training of gardaí

Get the ERU to escort prisoners
If I was a major criminal and I knew the ERU were going to be busy on escort duty I would be rubbing my hands at what I could get up to during that time. The public would be screaming blue murder that so many armed gardaí were escorting a prisoner to court while two or three post offices were being done over twenty miles or so away.

Get the army to do it
It frees up the resource of the ERU and other armed units so that they can get on with their day-to-dat duties.
However, it also gives the hardmen the big idea that they are so dangerous that the army is the only thing that can keep them in prison

Spend loads of money on training more armed gardaí, buying assault rifles and sub-machine guns and better cars while training the gardaí to drive those cars appropriately
In the current economic climate? Don't make me laugh. When you see a story about how there's only a couple of cars between a load of gardaí and most of those guards haven't even had the training required to allow them behind the wheel then you suddenly realise how much needs to be spent and the chances of that happening are zilch right now.

This is why the army do it. As for where were the army when an unarmed guard was arresting them, I don't think many guards would like the army backing them up , do you? That would really be saying that the gardaí can't do their job.

The army also escort CIT vans along with gardaí. We all know what happened when the army weren't escorting the van that Gerry McCabe was guarding. Does anyone really think the IRA would have attacked a van the army were escorting? I don't.

The fact is that these so-called hardmen wouldn't dream of attacking an army escort but they would take a chance at trying to free one of their own if it was only a small garda escort.

That's why the army are doing it. It's down to a massive lack of resources for the gardaí, the availability of the army and the fear factor it places on the so-called hardmen criminals. Look what happened years ago when armed gardaí were resourced to patrol the streets of Limerick. The cowards all scuttled back to their hidey-holes and didn't set foot outdoors. Attacking an unarmed garda who is likely not to have backup for about 10 minutes or so is easy pickings, attacking a garda who is likely to have a dozen armed garda by his side in under two minutes is a totally different story.

Until the garda have the proper resource, training and numbers to deal with high-profile escorts the army is the logical choice.

Hooch

The above I fully agree with.


I would add also that the Army are present in a capacity known as "Aid to the civil power" IE, the Army are there to protect and aid the Gardaí in their duties. Technically they are not there to stop the prisoner escaping, the Gardaí are. The Army (who are very competent at what they do and very well respected internationally by the way....) essence protect us.

With the mod hat on, posters beware we do not talk about the operational ability, capability or actual functions of the ERU, thanks

mcgarrett

realies wrote: »

I agree, Why cant the prisoner already being held in custody (as in this case) not be dealt with through video link ? It was always going to be a remand.

This is the post that finally gets down to the basic problem. The majority of these escorts are for remand hearings and bail applications. The legislation and facilities are in place for video link but it's not being used, why?

unichall

Terrontress wrote: »

I don't think it is fair to suggest the army do nothing.

To be clear i wasn't suggesting the army do nothing pence the '' '' i was merely adding this as the type of moronic comment that would/ could be made in highlighting my point, sorry if there was confusion

Eru

mcgarrett wrote: »

This is the post that finally gets down to the basic problem. The majority of these escorts are for remand hearings and bail applications. The legislation and facilities are in place for video link but it's not being used, why?

habeas corpus. Person has the right to address the court when its making decisions about his freedom.

Some things are more important than finance and a persons liberty is one of them.


and I hardly ever do escorts but its nice to be appreciated

Locust

Not to take away from what some have said but worth remembering when it comes to escorts and making the best of resources... - that the ERU are a hell of a lot more specialised in a range of other stuff - regarded as 'an elite unit' as opposed to regular army escorts going around. Could they be put to better use elsewhere? Or are a jeep full of squaddies in battlegear enough of a deterrant for a drive across town? I suppose it depends on whats going on that week. Just saying.

Witcher

Is there any real need to change the system as it stands? How many times has a prisoner escort or cash transport being carried out by the army been attacked? If it ain't broke etc.

Terrontress

This is a carbon copy of what the police in the UK are doing and have done.

People are justifying an external agency's involvement in policing because the Gardai are stretched. Should the answer to that not be to look for more policing?

In the UK Highways Agencies now patrol the motorway, councils look for traffic offences, police drivers are hired from recruitment agencies.

It's all fine though because police are too busy.

Then police numbers become fewer because they are not required for policing and those remaining are still as busy.

Recruit some Gardaí, train them up, don't send a soldier to do a police job.

MagicSean

Terrontress wrote: »

This is a carbon copy of what the police in the UK are doing and have done.

People are justifying an external agency's involvement in policing because the Gardai are stretched. Should the answer to that not be to look for more policing?

In the UK Highways Agencies now patrol the motorway, councils look for traffic offences, police drivers are hired from recruitment agencies.

It's all fine though because police are too busy.

Then police numbers become fewer because they are not required for policing and those remaining are still as busy.

Recruit some Gardaí, train them up, don't send a soldier to do a police job.

This isn't outsourcing though. It's a different state agency doing a different job. Another poster already indicated that they are there to protect the Gardaí rather than prevent escape. It's a technical but still important difference. The army and Gardaí work under different rules and do different jobs. It's not about resources. It's about their roles.

the culture of deference

I am ex DOJ. I can remember single prisoners coming into Chancery street with up to 7 PO's and armed gardai just for a remand date. They would have been brought from Portlaoise or further away.

A complete waste of time and resources.

Zambia

Surely it would be more practical to have a Bail Judge, Defence and prosecution attend the Prison.

Sunnyisland

Zambia wrote: »

Surely it would be more practical to have a Bail Judge, Defence and prosecution attend the Prison.

In wheatfield/cloverhill prison there is a tunnel leading to the courts next door.

bk

I wonder if there is an argument for the introduction of a military police force similar to the Gendarmerie in France and similar in other countries.

Basically they would have similar powers of arrest as a Garda, but would have training more towards weapons use and riot control, versus community policing, investigation and intelligence work normally carried out by the Gardai.

The advantage of this over just using the army, is that they could work with and help the Gardai in their day to day activities and actually arrest people and not just prisoner/cash patrols.

It seems to me to be a waste using soldiers that have been trained and equipped in battlefield tactics, artillery, etc. for such mundane tasks.

This could be setup and financed by allowing soldiers to transfer over from the army to this new force and cutting the numbers in the army and their budget by the same amount, so it would be revenue neutral. In time their jeeps could be repainted blue, uniforms demilitarised, etc. to create a force to fill the gap between the Gardai and the Army.

They could then be used to "police" places like government buildings, airports, etc. do prisoner and cash transports without the need of a Garda presence, thus freeing up Gardai for more important duties elsewhere.

Just an idea worth considering.

Eru

bk wrote: »

I wonder if there is an argument for the introduction of a military police force similar to the Gendarmerie in France and similar in other countries.

Basically they would have similar powers of arrest as a Garda, but would have training more towards weapons use and riot control, versus community policing, investigation and intelligence work normally carried out by the Gardai.

The advantage of this over just using the army, is that they could work with and help the Gardai in their day to day activities and actually arrest people and not just prisoner/cash patrols.

It seems to me to be a waste using soldiers that have been trained and equipped in battlefield tactics, artillery, etc. for such mundane tasks.

This could be setup and financed by allowing soldiers to transfer over from the army to this new force and cutting the numbers in the army and their budget by the same amount, so it would be revenue neutral. In time their jeeps could be repainted blue, uniforms demilitarised, etc. to create a force to fill the gap between the Gardai and the Army.

They could then be used to "police" places like government buildings, airports, etc. do prisoner and cash transports without the need of a Garda presence, thus freeing up Gardai for more important duties elsewhere.

Just an idea worth considering.

Is it though? What else would they be doing other than constant training? Is it really worth paying more staff to do a job thats working just fine?

Also, do you really believe this country would support military police armed to the police running around?

Rawhead

bk wrote: »

I wonder if there is an argument for the introduction of a military police force similar to the Gendarmerie in France and similar in other countries.

Basically they would have similar powers of arrest as a Garda, but would have training more towards weapons use and riot control, versus community policing, investigation and intelligence work normally carried out by the Gardai.

The advantage of this over just using the army, is that they could work with and help the Gardai in their day to day activities and actually arrest people and not just prisoner/cash patrols.

It seems to me to be a waste using soldiers that have been trained and equipped in battlefield tactics, artillery, etc. for such mundane tasks.

This could be setup and financed by allowing soldiers to transfer over from the army to this new force and cutting the numbers in the army and their budget by the same amount, so it would be revenue neutral. In time their jeeps could be repainted blue, uniforms demilitarised, etc. to create a force to fill the gap between the Gardai and the Army.

They could then be used to "police" places like government buildings, airports, etc. do prisoner and cash transports without the need of a Garda presence, thus freeing up Gardai for more important duties elsewhere.

Just an idea worth considering.

The military in this country are not engaged in fighting any wars so all you would be doing is freeing them up to constantly train for something they will never do.

I would guess the Army would resist this move far more than the Gardai as it would make them virtually redundant.

Does a country of 4 million really need 2 police forces?

Is it not the CRS you are thinking about in France by the way?

In the case of prisoner escorts alone, would it not be better to select and train a small group of PO's and let them do it? Loads of ex-military in the prison service with requisite skills.