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The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

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Comments

  • #932
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    28064212 wrote: »
    Oh FFS. Do you really think adoption agencies have a binary selection process? Couple applies, then they're either qualifed or not qualified? There's no such thing as a better couple? Don't be so obtuse. How do you think they decide if the choice is between 2 heterosexual couples? Flip a coin?

    I'll just let you know, in case you keep asking, I'm not getting drawn into your stupid question.


  • #933
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    JimiTime wrote: »
    no. As I said, look a the map reading situation in terms of men and women, and that should give you an idea that there are intrinsic differences in the workings of men and women.
    So, without going into why the "map reading situation" is bs, and recommending books debunking gender myths to you which you won't read, let's assume that this is true.

    You would agree that there are exceptions to the rule that "women can't read maps", yes?
    Therefore, you would agree that there are exceptions in men and women in terms of respective necessary male/female workings in relation to parenting?
    And so, there could be men that exist who work like females and would make good mother figures, and women who would make good father figures?


  • #934
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JimiTime wrote: »
    And if thats good enough for you, then fine. A study wont change what I witness on a daily basis though, so it can't convince me.
    But even though you're honest enough to admit how closed minded you are, you are still using such logic dishonestly. (as well as dishonestly avoiding my other points.)
    It doesn't matter if you are convinced about studies or not, you cannot claim that one type of study says something it cannot say.
    We call this lying.

    And again:
    Please actually point out which differences you are referring to and show and support how 1) they cannot be present in the other gender and 2) show how they are essential or more beneficial to child rearing.

    If you can't do this, then do the honest thing and admit it.


  • #935
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    yawha wrote: »
    So, without going into why the "map reading situation" is bs, and recommending books debunking gender myths to you which you won't read, let's assume that this is true.

    So whats your angle then? That men and women are the same in everything but the sex organ department? If so, why do people with Gender identity disorder feel like they have a male or female brain? If the sexes are basically the same, then what is a male and female brain?
    You would agree that there are exceptions to the rule that "women can't read maps", yes?

    TBH, I don't even know if this is the case. Its just a common thing you here getting bandied about. If its BS, then its BS, but is your point that men and women are intrinsically the same?
    Therefore, you would agree that there are exceptions in men and women in terms of respective necessary male/female workings in relation to parenting?
    Probably yes.
    And so, there could be men that exist who work like females and would make good mother figures, and women who would make good father figures?

    Not so sure. I reckon the exceptions will be in certain areas, but not in all areas.


  • #936
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I'll just let you know, in case you keep asking, I'm not getting drawn into your stupid question.
    Ad hominem. Keep going, I just need one more for a Full House in fallacy bingo. Not that it matters, I never expected you to answer, because you either have to take a totally ridiculous position that shows it's nothing to do with the child's best interests, or else one where your whole argument falls apart. Obviously, you were never going to do either, instead just ignoring the (very valid) question. Fortunately, we already know that you have no interest in a proper discussion. But your refusal to answer just shows neutrals how absurd your position is.

    But to return to one of the classics you're currently engaging in, no-one has said that there are not differences between men and women. Not a single person has made that claim. Despite that, you keep reapeating it over and over again as it has some relevance. Probably because it's about the only point you actually have any basis for.

    You have been asked over and over how these differences relate to child-rearing and how they are negative. As you did when you were asked for the differences between men and women, you are refusing to answer, just repeating over and over that you're right, and it's obvious, and you don't have to explain yourself. Doing everything you can to stall any type of, oh I don't know, an actual discussion breaking out.

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  • #937
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    King Mob wrote: »
    It doesn't matter if you are convinced about studies or not, you cannot claim that one type of study says something it cannot say.

    Ah, but you are assuming thats what I'm saying. The conversation can't go anywhere, until the differences are seen by yourselves. Only then can you can I recommend you ask the next question. That being, do you really think the differences are inconsequential. You are not yet at that point. So no point in chasing ahead.
    And again:
    Please actually point out which differences you are referring to and show and support how 1) they cannot be present in the other gender and 2) show how they are essential or more beneficial to child rearing.

    If you can't do this, then do the honest thing and admit it.

    First of all, I notice the continual use of the word 'cannot' in reference to your first question. I don't think its accidental, and is probably a subconscious, or maybe even a conscious acknowledgement that the differences are there. It just moves the argument to the practical manifestations of the differences. So in other words, all the examples that you want, you want to be able to say, 'But a woman CAN do this, or a man CAN do that', and of course you would be right in relation to the manifestations of the differences. But that doesn't address the point that while the manifestations CAN be done by both, they aren't. Men DO certain things, while women DO other things. And while there can be crossover in behaviour, its not common enough to be relevant to consider in relation to saying men and woman are the same. That's the explicit behaviour in relation to kids, not even getting to the implicit behaviours which kids will get in terms of experiencing having a male and female role model raise them.


  • #938
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    28064212 wrote: »
    Ad hominem. .

    Its not ad hominem. Its saying its a stupid question, that you have raised elsewhere, and now here, constantly. You obviously think its a great question given the frequency you ask it. I think its far from that. Quite straight up really.


  • #939
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    The best environment for a Child is in a Family with a Father and a Mother.

    Why we are looking to deny this basic fundamental natural reality is crazy.

    We have a society that tells us natural is best, breast feed you baby.., Feed them a balance diet. Importance of mother child bonding. etc..

    Yet we disregard the natural family in favour of same sex couples.? I am sure children have grown up ok. But the basic point of what is the Ideal best environment for a Child is to have their own Father/Mother, if that is not possible then the best is to have a substitute father and Mother.

    To deny the Child a possibility of having a Father and a Mother in favour of giving them to a homosexual couples is crazy.

    Natures way is best. Both sexes have roles to play in a Child's development.

    Where society has decided that "nature is best", it's been after comparative studies to the alternatives. As I said before, the relevant health authorities didn't wake up one morning and just declare breast milk is better because it was natural. There were studies done comparing the options.

    So far in this thread, no one has been able to back up their statement that children must have parents of opposite sex. And no, watching couples play with their children doesn't count.

    On the other hand, I've shown that the State has no problems with same sex couples acting as foster parents to vulnerable children, that at least one former Minister for Children feels that gay parents as just as capable as heterosexual parents, and that the Ombudsman for Children feels that more needs to be done to strengthen the legal ties between same sex parents and their children. More, not less.


  • #940
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Ah, but you are assuming thats what I'm saying. The conversation can't go anywhere, until the differences are seen by yourselves. Only then can you can I recommend you ask the next question. That being, do you really think the differences are inconsequential. You are not yet at that point. So no point in chasing ahead.

    First of all, I notice the continual use of the word 'cannot' in reference to your first question. I don't think its accidental, and is probably a subconscious, or maybe even a conscious acknowledgement that the differences are there. It just moves the argument to the practical manifestations of the differences. So in other words, all the examples that you want, you want to be able to say, 'But a woman CAN do this, or a man CAN do that', and of course you would be right in relation to the manifestations of the differences. But that doesn't address the point that while the manifestations CAN be done by both, they aren't. Men DO certain things, while women DO other things. And while there can be crossover in behaviour, its not common enough to be relevant to consider in relation to saying men and woman are the same. That's the explicit behaviour in relation to kids, not even getting to the implicit behaviours which kids will get in terms of experiencing having a male and female role model raise them.
    All of this post is dodging waffle.
    I have severals time qualified my question with "even if these differences existed..."

    We all know there are differences between genders, but we don't agree that they are exclusive nor do we agree if such differences were exclusive they are required or beneficial.

    My question has nothing to do with whether or not these unique differences exist, I think we all realise that you are unable to back up your claim and are too dishonest to retract it.

    I am asking you to show that these differences cannot exist in same sex couples, and to show that they are actually required.

    So again:
    Please actually point out which differences you are referring to and show and support how 1) they cannot be present in the other gender and 2) show how they are essential or more beneficial to child rearing.

    If you can't do this, then do the honest thing and admit it.


  • #941
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Its not ad hominem. Its saying its a stupid question
    Without being able to say why it's stupid
    JimiTime wrote: »
    that you have raised elsewhere, and now here, constantly.
    Because no-one has provided an answer
    JimiTime wrote: »
    You obviously think its a great question given the frequency you ask it. I think its far from that.
    Given your total failure to answer it, it's no surprise you don't like the question

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  • #942
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So whats your angle then? That men and women are the same in everything but the sex organ department? If so, why do people with Gender identity disorder feel like they have a male or female brain? If the sexes are basically the same, then what is a male and female brain?

    Clearly you are not reading what others are posting, this is not the angle taken by anyone on this thread.

    I'll try and make it simple:

    Yes, there are differences between men and women. The unique features of men and women will not cause a negative effect on a child's upbringing in their absence. Studies have shown that what is needed for a child's upbringing to be successful are things that can be done by either men or women.

    Your posting of 'Men DO certain things, while women DO other things,' is plain wrong. It's down to individual's personality and mindset rather than their sex. My mother is overprotective, and probably conforms to the mother sterotype, but the mother of one of my close friends is happy to let her do pretty much anything and will think little of it. There is no one set of things that men do, and another that women do. There just isn't, in any facet of life and parenting is no different.

    I won't comment on the trans question, that's one for another thread.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    The conversation can't go anywhere, until the differences are seen by yourselves.

    I don't think you grasp the fundamentals of debate. My experiences, the experiences of others on this thread and studies into the topic show that there are no differences in the quality of same-sex and mixed-sex parenting. As the one in this discussion who has been asserting to the contrary, the onus is on you to prove those differences. If you do not then there is no argument. If you don't then you only aid further our side of the argument.

    We cannot grasp differences we know to not exist. So unless you tell us the differences we will remain unenlightened. And you telling us the differences won't cheapen them or cause them to lose 'value'. I'll consider anything that has merit, and that merit comes not from who proposes the idea, but what the proposition is.


  • #943
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,367 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So whats your angle then? That men and women are the same in everything but the sex organ department?

    It is becoming steadily clearer that you have no interest in reading anything people actually write. No one has expressed the position above here even once. I have never seen one poster shovel so much straw.

    Read my post here for example and you will see the claim in it is not the same as your warped representation of it above.


  • #944
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Having read the last 150 posts or so, I'm finding this thread more Zen that Christian. "I will not tell you the answer for it is in within you"

    But Jimi, you say
    JimiTime wrote: »
    look a the map reading situation in terms of men and women, and that should give you an idea that there are intrinsic differences in the workings of men and women.

    If that is true, should I as an employer be able to choose a man over a woman in selecting someone for employment because of my belief in their gender difference through my observations?


  • #945
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    JimiTime wrote: »
    no. As I said, look a the map reading situation in terms of men and women, and that should give you an idea that there are intrinsic differences in the workings of men and women.

    JimiTime, you have been making one mindless assertion after another. It is frustrating to watch you peddle your gender mythology when everyone knows the real reason you are against adoption by same-sex couples is you just find them weird.


  • #946
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.


  • #947
    Actor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 348 ✭✭Actor


    Morbert wrote: »
    JimiTime, you have been making one mindless assertion after another. It is frustrating to watch you peddle your gender mythology when everyone knows the real reason you are against adoption by same-sex couples is you just find them weird.

    Weirdness is a good a reason as any. Why they are inherently weird and disordered is a good topic for debate.


  • #948
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Actor wrote: »
    Weirdness is a good a reason as any. Why they are inherently weird and disordered is a good topic for debate.

    Says the man who is obsessed with sodomy.


  • #949
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.
    There's no law against straight parents who engage in anal or oral sex, bdsm or any other fun perverse things. So why would gay sex be the issue?

    What evidence do you have to suggest that parents who have a healthy adventurous sex life do worse than ones who have a boring one?


  • #950
    G.K.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,704 ✭✭✭G.K.


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.

    Why is having a mother and father better?


  • #951
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,054 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.
    As opposed to straight parents who engage in "perversions" like sodomy? You're going to require everyone applying for adoption to submit to an anal inspection? Given your obsession with sodomy, I can only assume you're going to be first in line to apply for a position as anal inspector
    Actor wrote: »
    Weirdness is a good a reason as any. Why they are inherently weird and disordered is a good topic for debate.
    Ah, the fallacy of begging the question. First you'll have to establish that they are "weird and disordered", then you can move the debate

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  • #952
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,917 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.

    And yet, I'd almost feel the same way about religious parents who try to force religion down their children's throats, or disown them due to their sexuality. I read stories about children being disowned by their parents because they're gay, and I think of how much better they'd have been if they were put up for adoption and raised by a homosexual couple


  • #953
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be...

    You make raising a child who is healthy and contributing to society sound like a second rate achievement. Most parents, same sex or opposite sex, would consider that to be the definition of successful parenting.

    If you have a higher standard, then, please, share it. I'm genuinely interested in hearing it. And while you're at it, tell us how your own children are faring against that standard as well.


  • #954
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    You make raising a child who is healthy and contributing to society sound like a second rate achievement. Most parents, same sex or opposite sex, would consider that to be the definition of successful parenting.

    Speaking as a parent I've always thought I'd be satisfied if my child could afford her own therapy.


  • #955
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    G.K. wrote: »
    Why is having a mother and father better?

    Children who grow up in same sex households think its better to have male and female parents;

    Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View
    by Robert Oscar Lopez August 6, 2012
    The children of same-sex couples have a tough road ahead of them—I know, because I have been there. The last thing we should do is make them feel guilty if the strain gets to them and they feel strange.


    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065


  • #956
    cathy01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭cathy01


    Snappy Smurf wrote: »
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Grand - Let's kick it off so.

    Marriage is not solely a religious institution, and as such - nobody has the right to dictate whether two consenting adults of the same sex can marry or not. Religious institutions have no right to interfere with legislation on same-sex marriage.

    Same-sex marriage is ultimately no different than 'traditional marriage' in any practical sense.

    Homosexuality is perfectly natural, and poses no dangers to society.

    Come off it son. Marriage is totally other to a same sex union.

    A man and a woman can make baby and start a family. Left to their own device, two men or two women can't make baby.

    Marriage is of benefit to society - it makes new people and provides the ideal means to bring them up in security and with the benefits to human development of having a father and mother. There is no comparison with gay unions.

    Say what you like but people do recognise the value and worth of marriage. Same sex persons already have a legal recognition of their unions, that should be enough. Demanding marriage is based on ideology.

    The day two men or two women can make baby WITHOUT extraordinary means (and a third person), then we can all it marriage.
    Can't believe I'm reading this in this day and age it's like something my granny would say ten years before she died.
    Honestly who cares if your straight or gay if your happy then who cares. I have four kids if any of them came home and said they where gay I would care about as much as if they came home and said they where straight . Are you happy ??? Yes , the enough said ,welcome all to the year 2012 .


  • #957
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    Children who grow up in same sex households think its better to have male and female parents;

    Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View
    by Robert Oscar Lopez August 6, 2012
    The children of same-sex couples have a tough road ahead of them—I know, because I have been there. The last thing we should do is make them feel guilty if the strain gets to them and they feel strange.


    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065
    But we have people on this thread who have gay parents and say the exact opposite.
    Why should we accept his opinion over those people? (Especially when he relies on a study that has been torn apart on this thread while none of the anti gay marriage crowd have even attempted to tackle those posts.)


  • #958
    cathy01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭cathy01


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.
    Are you for real I'm straight and I engage in perversion and I'm a mother , my happy husband doesnt mind.
    I'd hate to be gay and reading the comments here , you'd think there was something wrong with it the way people are going on .


  • #959
    jupiterjack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 660 ✭✭✭jupiterjack


    Actor wrote: »
    Gays may be able to raise a child that is healthy and contributes to society. However, think of how much better they'd be if they had a proper father and mother who don't engage in perversions.
    Having a good laugh here, as a straight person who has 3 kids with my partner and i would regard us as good parents or as you might say a proper father and mother but then i wonder how would we have created our beautiful children if we had not engaged in perversions. I persume by perversions you mean sexual activities.


  • #960
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Morbert wrote: »
    JimiTime, you have been making one mindless assertion after another. It is frustrating to watch you peddle your gender mythology when everyone knows the real reason you are against adoption by same-sex couples is you just find them weird.

    I suppose it probably is too much to ask you to use your own observational powers when its clear they fall short;)

    But wise crack immaturity aside, I still maintain that the two things you must ask are this:

    1) Do fathers and mothers in general parent differently? Try looking at the real life going on about you going forward, and I'll be flabbergasted if you don't see it.

    2) If yes is your answer to the above, then the natural question is then, do their parenting styles matter to a child?

    I would also repeat, that all you study junkies, look for studies not sullied by political motives. Look for ones relating to the differences in fathers and mothers etc. I can't believe that you would trust a study on homosexual parenting, (And does it account for every form that takes? Two men, no blood relation to child. Two men, one being their father. two lesbains etc. Then we have transgender etc. I mean its not like same sex parents means a specific thing) when probably not even 0.01% of children in the world are in a same sex home. This seems like more of a political desire than anything else. There seems to be more time given over to the LGBT politics for equality, than for any real concern for the possible issues for children. i mean even if there is a suspicion of risk, or any doubts about if there is anything a child will be missing out on without a mother or father, then all bets should be off.


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  • #961
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I suppose it probably is too much to ask you to use your own observational powers when its clear they fall short;)

    But wise crack immaturity aside, I still maintain that the two things you must ask are this:

    1) Do fathers and mothers in general parent differently? Try looking at the real life going on about you going forward, and I'll be flabbergasted if you don't see it.

    2) If yes is your answer to the above, then the natural question is then, do their parenting styles matter to a child?

    I would also repeat, that all you study junkies, look for studies not sullied by political motives. Look for ones relating to the differences in fathers and mothers etc. I can't believe that you would trust a study on homosexual parenting, (And does it account for every form that takes? Two men, no blood relation to child. Two men, one being their father. two lesbains etc. Then we have transgender etc. I mean its not like same sex parents means a specific thing) when probably not even 0.01% of children in the world are in a same sex home. This seems like more of a political desire than anything else. There seems to be more time given over to the LGBT politics for equality, than for any real concern for the possible issues for children. i mean even if there is a suspicion of risk, or any doubts about if there is anything a child will be missing out on without a mother or father, then all bets should be off.

    When all is said and done this is just mindless bigotry with absolutely nothing to back it up. Closed mind if ever there was one , but at last in the final lines the real venom inadvertently begins to show.


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