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*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

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    #2522
    Canard
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 8,572 Mod ✭✭✭✭Canard


    QoL average posts per day: 4.03
    nogivingup: 5.02

    :O

    SLIPPERY SLOPE MAN GO HIT THE BOOKS LEST YOU BECOME MEDIOCRE :pac:


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    #2523
    Kirby2k07
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭Kirby2k07


    Lols on nogivingup there be many more pretentious twats such as yourself across the pond looking down their snooty noses from oxbridge medical schools at yourself so..... way.


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    #2524
    jumpguy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    nogivingup wrote: »
    If you care so much about patients, why didn't you avail of a better education by going to the better university, Trinity, instead of the worst Medical school in the country, NUIG?
    Dude, normally I wouldn't dignify that with a response, but there are doctors in Africa who care about patients working off hand-me-down textbooks from the 1980s and 1990s doing their best. It's not dependent on the status of your med school. For you though, it clearly is, thus really reinforcing my point.


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    #2525
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Kirby2k07 wrote: »
    Lols on nogivingup there be many more pretentious twats such as yourself across the pond looking down their snooty noses from oxbridge medical schools at yourself so..... way.
    Kirby, you also are new to this forum and Boards, so I'll leave it at pointing out that we don't tolerate abuse / insults even when there is provocation.

    Now let's leave it and move along.


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    #2526
    Leinsterr
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 401 ✭✭Leinsterr


    Hey guys just a few questions about the HPAT and LC marks. Oh yeah don't listen to that nogivingup guy or whatever he calls himself. He couldn't fight his own useless argument and is now throwing around insults. Anyway, I know the baseline mark for the LC to get into medicine is 480 and the maximum is 565 (after adjusted points), just wondering what would be the average mark that people get in the LC and still succeed in the HPAT and get into medicine? Would 540-550 be enough? Thanks


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    #2527
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    Leinsterr wrote: »
    Hey guys just a few questions about the HPAT and LC marks. Oh yeah don't listen to that nogivingup guy or whatever he calls himself. He couldn't fight his own useless argument and is now throwing around insults. Anyway, I know the baseline mark for the LC to get into medicine is 480 and the maximum is 565 (after adjusted points), just wondering what would be the average mark that people get in the LC and still succeed in the HPAT and get into medicine? Would 540-550 be enough? Thanks

    Depends how you do in the hpat, you're gonna need a combined total of around 740 to be almost certain of a place. which would need a hpat of 190 at 550 points. the minimum will probably be lower than 740 for nuig but it's a safe enough number to aim for.


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    #2528
    DoctorMedicine
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭DoctorMedicine


    CookieMonster.x wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply about the HPAT and UKCAT, I really appreciate it! Luckily I have two different work experiences in the medical field so I should be ok for that. Thanks again!

    In response to nogivingup: I have read your posts and while I am not usually one to get involvede, I really feel compelled to respond. Your comments really baffle me. I just cannot comprehend how one could have such a stupid and silly outlook and be one of our future doctors. I am not a mean person, but I would hate for you to be my doctor. To say that someone does not have the aptitude for medicine because they got a 'mediocre' Leaving Cert. ie. less than 550 points is just absurd. The Leaving Cert is a memory test and nothing else.

    Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong. The L.C. does spawn rote-learning for certain aspects of several subjects, including English, Irish, Geo, History among others. However, you need intelligence to succeed in any subject. You can't just learn off a few essays and get an A1-what you're saying is ludicrous. How can you possibly assert that the L.C. is a memory test for subjects like Chem, Physics, Maths etc.?

    Seriously, I always try to maintain a level of restraint when reading posts on boards, but ones like your post really take the biscuit. IT IS NOT A MEMORY TEST. You try telling someone who has achieved 550+ that they have only been tested on their memory.


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    #2529
    CookieMonster.x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭CookieMonster.x


    DoctorMedicine wrote: »
    CookieMonster.x wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply about the HPAT and UKCAT, I really appreciate it! Luckily I have two different work experiences in the medical field so I should be ok for that. Thanks again!

    In response to nogivingup: I have read your posts and while I am not usually one to get involvede, I really feel compelled to respond. Your comments really baffle me. I just cannot comprehend how one could have such a stupid and silly outlook and be one of our future doctors. I am not a mean person, but I would hate for you to be my doctor. To say that someone does not have the aptitude for medicine because they got a 'mediocre' Leaving Cert. ie. less than 550 points is just absurd. The Leaving Cert is a memory test and nothing else.

    Sorry, but you are absolutely wrong. The L.C. does spawn rote-learning for certain aspects of several subjects, including English, Irish, Geo, History among others. However, you need intelligence to succeed in any subject. You can't just learn off a few essays and get an A1-what you're saying is ludicrous. How can you possibly assert that the L.C. is a memory test for subjects like Chem, Physics, Maths etc.?

    Seriously, I always try to maintain a level of restraint when reading posts on boards, but ones like your post really take the biscuit. IT IS NOT A MEMORY TEST. You try telling someone who has achieved 550+ that they have only been tested on their memory.
    Well yes I agree that not all subjects are based on memory however many are. In many you just need to learn to manipulate the marking scheme and you're sorted. But yes I do agree that intelligence is need in some way for some subjects.


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    #2530
    DoctorMedicine
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭DoctorMedicine


    CookieMonster.x wrote: »
    Well yes I agree that not all subjects are based on memory however many are. In many you just need to learn to manipulate the marking scheme and you're sorted. But yes I do agree that intelligence is need in some way for some subjects.

    That's just another way of describing the act of answering the question! You will only get marks for what's detailed in the marking scheme. What you're saying lacks accuracy and is generally incoherent.

    The fact remains that obviously rote-learning is a factor in some aspects of certain subjects but you will not, under any circumstances, achieve an A without being proficient at a given subject. Intelligence, first and foremost, is what is required to do well in any subject. People who work consistently and are fully dedicated and determined to do well in the L.C. will succeed in getting the marks they deserve.

    Apart from unnecessary aspects of certain subjects, e.g. poetry in Irish, the L.C. is an very good way of differing between those who are and are not deserving of a place in a course. However, for Medicine, I believe the criteria should differ with interviews being introduced and the HPAT abolished. However, that is a different matter than what I am dealing with here which is you incorrectly saying that the L.C. is a memory test. Your statement was inaccurate and deeply flawed.


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    #2531
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    DoctorMedicine wrote: »
    However, that is a different matter than what I am dealing with here which is you incorrectly saying that the L.C. is a memory test. Your statement was inaccurate and deeply flawed.
    WRONG. The leaving cert is by and large a memory test with the exception of maths, physics, chemisty, applied maths and a few others. To suceed in the other subjects demands merely rehearsing the exam questions and hope they come up on the day. There's very little critical thinking involved in regurgitating a 5 page essay in the space of 30 minutes.


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    #2532
    Canard
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 8,572 Mod ✭✭✭✭Canard


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    WRONG. The leaving cert is by and large a memory test with the exception of maths, physics, chemisty, applied maths and a few others. To suceed in the other subjects demands merely rehearsing the exam questions and hope they come up on the day. There's very little critical thinking involved in regurgitating a 5 page essay in the space of 30 minutes.
    He's not wrong. It's a memory test if you make it one, but personally I don't remember learning things off for English, Irish, Maths or French - rather I learned the storylines (which isn't exactly intensive rote-learning), for maths I tried to understand concepts, and even with proofs I understood them moreso than rote-learned. Constructions are 25/600 marks, hardly a memory test, and French is learning but it's definitely not testing you on your memory when you go into the exam. I learned the Irish and French languages, I didn't memorise them. If it's "just a memory test" then why does everyone make such a big deal of it? It's more than that. Even in history you form your own opinions and critically analyse the document on the day and in business's applied section you apply what you've learned. You can't hope for a certain document or applied business question, or a certain word in Irish and French, and while you can hope for a poet you have to thoroughly understand their work to do well in English - you have to think on your feet.

    I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but it really puts down all the hard work people do for the exams when people make comments like that. I, personally, see it as more than a memory test, but maybe some don't.


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    #2533
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    Patchy~ wrote: »
    I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but it really puts down all the hard work people do for the exams when people make comments like that. I, personally, see it as more than a memory test, but maybe some don't.

    You said it yourself, the Leaving Cert is hard work and I don't deny that. It takes months to build up the knowledge base for it, BUT there's little that's conceptually difficult in it. If you had text book knowledge in most subjects and average intelligence, you would inevitably do well in it. That's all that's required, HARD WORK. I know many high pointers (I am one) and many aren't particularly intellectual or cerebral, some are downright everday Joes.


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    #2534
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Patchy~ wrote: »
    I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but it really puts down all the hard work people do for the exams when people make comments like that. I, personally, see it as more than a memory test, but maybe some don't.

    You said it yourself, the Leaving Cert is hard work and I don't deny that. It takes months to build up the knowledge base for it, BUT there's little that's conceptually difficult in it. If you had text book knowledge in most subjects and average intelligence, you would inevitably do well in it. That's all that's required, HARD WORK. I know many high pointers (I am one) and many aren't particularly intellectual or cerebral, some are downright everday Joes.

    FINALLY! Someone speaking logically! Hard work gets you points, hard work makes good doctors- what's wrong with increasing the points requirement?


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    #2535
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Patchy~ wrote: »
    I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but it really puts down all the hard work people do for the exams when people make comments like that. I, personally, see it as more than a memory test, but maybe some don't.

    You said it yourself, the Leaving Cert is hard work and I don't deny that. It takes months to build up the knowledge base for it, BUT there's little that's conceptually difficult in it. If you had text book knowledge in most subjects and average intelligence, you would inevitably do well in it. That's all that's required, HARD WORK. I know many high pointers (I am one) and many aren't particularly intellectual or cerebral, some are downright everday Joes.

    FINALLY! Someone speaking logically! Hard work gets you points, hard work makes good doctors- what's wrong with increasing the points requirement?

    Only ~70 people will have hpat scores high enough to lower the points requirement below a reasonable score like 540. Of those 70 who managed 98.5th percentile hpat scores, don't you think only a negligible few would actually get below 540 but still get in? The 480 thing is just a formality anyway since currently nobody can get in with those points. Clearly the department believes that places should be allocated based on combined scores regardless of the proportion which comes from the hpat. What evidence do you have to back your view? Do you think you're a better judge of who would make a good doctor(because you go to trinity perhaps LOL) than an entire department of people with decades of experience more than you? Do you think that the world revolves around you, that just because you had to work hard to get certain grades then everyone else should have to do the exact same so that you feel better?

    Also pure hard work doesn't make doctors, some people have the aptitude for it and others don't regardless of how hard they worked. Some people can wing it to class tests and get A's, others work their asses off and get B's. Do you think someone like Roger Federer was so dominant in tennis because he just worked harder than anyone else? Do you think if I trained as hard as Usain Bolt I could break the world 100m record? Hard work is only one part of the equation.

    Your argument isnt objective at all, and you just latch on to anyone that shows mild agreement with you 'finally someone who speaks logic'(I'm paraphrasing).


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    #2536
    DoctorMedicine
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭DoctorMedicine


    Patchy~ wrote: »
    He's not wrong. It's a memory test if you make it one, but personally I don't remember learning things off for English, Irish, Maths or French - rather I learned the storylines (which isn't exactly intensive rote-learning), for maths I tried to understand concepts, and even with proofs I understood them moreso than rote-learned. Constructions are 25/600 marks, hardly a memory test, and French is learning but it's definitely not testing you on your memory when you go into the exam. I learned the Irish and French languages, I didn't memorise them. If it's "just a memory test" then why does everyone make such a big deal of it? It's more than that. Even in history you form your own opinions and critically analyse the document on the day and in business's applied section you apply what you've learned. You can't hope for a certain document or applied business question, or a certain word in Irish and French, and while you can hope for a poet you have to thoroughly understand their work to do well in English - you have to think on your feet.

    I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but it really puts down all the hard work people do for the exams when people make comments like that. I, personally, see it as more than a memory test, but maybe some don't.

    Great post! You are right. You can not and will not succeed in achieving an A in the L.C. without proficiency in that subject. Pugzilla can say what she/he wants-quite simply, she/he is wholly wrong. I also think that the fact Nogivingup is supporting her/him speaks volumes for the point being made.


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    #2537
    QueenOfLeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭QueenOfLeon


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Hard work gets you points, hard work makes good doctors- what's wrong with increasing the points requirement?

    Why is it so important to you that the points requirements go up? Medicine isn't decided by the LC results alone. If someone reaches the ~730 necessary by whatever combination of LC/HPAT, well then they're in. Why are you so bothered by that?

    To be honest they could get rid of the points cut off altogether. Last year for example, no one would have gotten in with a Leaving Cert under 500 (highest HPAT was 238).


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    #2538
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    DoctorMedicine wrote: »
    Great post! You are right. You can not and will not succeed in achieving an A in the L.C. without proficiency in that subject. Pugzilla can say what she/he wants-quite simply, she/he is wholly wrong. I also think that the fact Nogivingup is supporting her/him speaks volumes for the point being made.

    Of course you need proficiency to get an A. When did I ever say you didn't need it? It's achieved mostly through memorisation not because you're smart. The reason it takes so long to study for the LC is because of all of the rote learning you must do.

    MEMORY, not intelligence, is king in LC land.

    I also think that Nogivingup is an arrogant and idiotic pr*ck. His support is not welcomed nor needed.


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    #2539
    SpirantSpem
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭SpirantSpem


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Of course you need proficiency to get an A. When did I ever say you didn't need it? It's achieved mostly through memorisation not because you're smart. The reason it takes so long to study for the LC is because of all of the rote learning you must do.

    MEMORY, not intelligence, is king in LC land.

    I also think that Nogivingup is an arrogant and idiotic pr*ck. His support is not welcomed nor needed.

    I disagree. I have terrible memory yet managed to attain 5 A1s & 2 A2s in my Leaving Cert. My grades were down to hard work, determination & above all an understanding of the subject. I could barely remember a quote in English (I think I quoted one sentence in each of my essays) yet managed to get an A2 because I understood the texts. The sciences, maths, accounting, applied maths - they're all about understanding. Languages are all about understanding. Some people just make the Leaving Cert a memory game for themselves.


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    #2540
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    DoctorMedicine wrote: »
    Patchy~ wrote: »
    He's not wrong. It's a memory test if you make it one, but personally I don't remember learning things off for English, Irish, Maths or French - rather I learned the storylines (which isn't exactly intensive rote-learning), for maths I tried to understand concepts, and even with proofs I understood them moreso than rote-learned. Constructions are 25/600 marks, hardly a memory test, and French is learning but it's definitely not testing you on your memory when you go into the exam. I learned the Irish and French languages, I didn't memorise them. If it's "just a memory test" then why does everyone make such a big deal of it? It's more than that. Even in history you form your own opinions and critically analyse the document on the day and in business's applied section you apply what you've learned. You can't hope for a certain document or applied business question, or a certain word in Irish and French, and while you can hope for a poet you have to thoroughly understand their work to do well in English - you have to think on your feet.

    I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything but it really puts down all the hard work people do for the exams when people make comments like that. I, personally, see it as more than a memory test, but maybe some don't.

    Great post! You are right. You can not and will not succeed in achieving an A in the L.C. without proficiency in that subject. Pugzilla can say what she/he wants-quite simply, she/he is wholly wrong. I also think that the fact Nogivingup is supporting her/him speaks volumes for the point being made.

    When you get into Medicine first attempt then we'll acknowledge your opinion.


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    #2541
    finality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Of course you need proficiency to get an A. When did I ever say you didn't need it? It's achieved mostly through memorisation not because you're smart. The reason it takes so long to study for the LC is because of all of the rote learning you must do.

    MEMORY, not intelligence, is king in LC land.

    I also think that Nogivingup is an arrogant and idiotic pr*ck. His support is not welcomed nor needed.

    But you do need a certain degree of natural intelligence to do well in the LC. There are people who work extremely hard and don't do exceptionally well. The ability to memorize large amounts of information is related to intelligence.

    Maybe it rewards hard work more than natural intelligence, but that's arguably a good thing. And if a person is very intelligent it's possible to get very high points in the LC without putting in a huge amount of work.

    It also depends on subject choices. You can make your leaving cert about memorizing, or you can make it about intelligence. What's wrong with being able to do well as a result of hard work anyway? Hard work is necessary in any college course. It could be argued that that makes the leaving cert quite suitable for its purpose.


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    #2542
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    nogivingup wrote: »
    When you get into Medicine first attempt then we'll acknowledge your opinion.

    Who is 'we'? There's nobody on your side mate! Again you can't even defend your point and resort to insults. Don't you see the irony in that? lmao


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    #2543
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Darksider wrote: »
    nogivingup wrote: »
    When you get into Medicine first attempt then we'll acknowledge your opinion.

    Who is 'we'? There's nobody on your side mate! Again you can't even defend your point and resort to insults. Don't you see the irony in that? lmao

    Royal plural.


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    #2544
    Mad Shark
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Mad Shark


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Of course you need proficiency to get an A. When did I ever say you didn't need it? It's achieved mostly through memorisation not because you're smart. The reason it takes so long to study for the LC is because of all of the rote learning you must do.

    MEMORY, not intelligence, is king in LC land.

    I also think that Nogivingup is an arrogant and idiotic pr*ck. His support is not welcomed nor needed.


    Be careful or you will get the yellow card from 'randylonghorn' !!


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    #2545
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Mad Shark wrote: »
    Be careful or you will get the yellow card from 'randylonghorn' !!

    Ya, personally I found his/her post to be very offensive. I can't work out how I offended him/her?


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    #2546
    Mad Shark
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Mad Shark


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Ya, personally I found his/her post to be very offensive. I can't work out how I offended him/her?


    You deserve to be red carded no bother for your arrogance alone - disagreed with most things you said but the more i read your comments and the responses i really think you are winding everyone up for the crack - so i suggest any more crap from you that others just ignore you... then it wont be much fun for you anymore.... ha...


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    #2547
    Dicksboro_man
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭Dicksboro_man


    every time i click on this thread im secretly hoping people could stop writing pointless arguments and rubbish and just enjoyed the last couple of days before results...


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    #2548
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Dicksboro_man wrote: »
    every time i click on this thread im secretly hoping people could stop writing pointless arguments and rubbish and just enjoyed the last couple of days before results...

    You're enjoying the last few days before results by going on boards?


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    #2549
    Togepi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,813 ✭✭✭Togepi


    I want to post my opinion on the points system and whether or not getting a fantastic Leaving Cert would make you a good doctor, but I really don't want to get into this argument...

    I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle secondary school... I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy...


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    #2550
    Canard
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 8,572 Mod ✭✭✭✭Canard


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    You said it yourself, the Leaving Cert is hard work and I don't deny that. It takes months to build up the knowledge base for it, BUT there's little that's conceptually difficult in it. If you had text book knowledge in most subjects and average intelligence, you would inevitably do well in it. That's all that's required, HARD WORK. I know many high pointers (I am one) and many aren't particularly intellectual or cerebral, some are downright everday Joes.
    Again I respectfully disagree - my English style of writing improved greatly in 6th year and that's not down to memory, it's technique. You can't even learn anything for English Paper 1. Hard work won't do anything if you're determined to do applied maths but don't have the intelligence, for example.
    nogivingup wrote: »
    FINALLY! Someone speaking logically! Hard work gets you points, hard work makes good doctors- what's wrong with increasing the points requirement?
    Um, YOU are the one raving on about the need for intelligence and a million other characteristics - that poster is saying you can essentially be "normal" (are you horrified yet?) and get in on memorising.
    Pugzilla wrote: »
    Of course you need proficiency to get an A. When did I ever say you didn't need it? It's achieved mostly through memorisation not because you're smart. The reason it takes so long to study for the LC is because of all of the rote learning you must do.

    MEMORY, not intelligence, is king in LC land.
    Well, memory and intelligence are pretty interlinked I find. I didn't get good at French by memorising, I got good at it by practice and by using my memory yes, but memory is the basis for everything - you'll never get proficient at maths with short-term memory loss, for example. I didn't even get good at English by reading, it comes naturally, and that's something I'm rather proud of and I don't put it down to memorisation.


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    #2551
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Pugzilla wrote: »
    I also think that Nogivingup is an arrogant and idiotic pr*ck. His support is not welcomed nor needed.
    Did you not actually notice my warning to Kirby a few posts before? ... or just decide it didn't apply to you?!

    Red card.
    nogivingup wrote: »
    When you get into Medicine first attempt then we'll acknowledge your opinion.
    No, we'll acknowledge his / her opinion anyway.

    I suggest you go back and read my post from last night; I am getting seriously tired of your confrontational attitude / trolling.


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