Sinn Fein in a huff over new signs

TheChizler · 07-08-2012 11:44PM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

The whole MPH/KPH issue is pretty irrelevant and would play no part in dictating where a person would or wouldn't go, unless they happen to be the most unadventurous Human Being on the planet.

If you actually considered it a real issue, I think an actual sign indicating that you've entered a MPH/KPH zone would be more appropriate than a sign that simply tells you that you've entered Northern Ireland, and provides you with absolutely no other information.

The sign serves no real practical purpose; certainly not in the sense that other posters have been arguing.

But that's my point. Coming across a MPH warning sign doesn't necessarily warn you of a new country, it certainly won't if you aren't aware of the differing standards used, for example if you were a tourist/not an Irish (in either way) resident.

Imagine you're in a situation where you aren't legally allowed to cross the border, but you have to be in a border area for whatever reason. How do you avoid crossing the border? SatNav aside, you can't make policy assuming everyone has a SatNav.

fasttalkerchat · 08-08-2012 12:00AM

LordSutch wrote: »

In reply to Fenian army, County x means nothing to tourists though, and surely even people from down south would welcome the signs which warns them of the diffenences I highlight in post#290. Anyway, if local people don't like the signs then they should complain and resolve the issue properly. Glead people arent shooting at each other that's for sure.

Goodnight.

Concerns were raised and the idea was dropped then the signs suddenly pop up on BBC newsline. The tourist board says it wasn't them, and Kennedy owns up. Now they're being removed and a few angry interviews were on the TV but nothing has been achieved other than a bit of real life trolling and £1000 wasted.

fasttalkerchat · 08-08-2012 12:01AM

TheChizler wrote: »

But that's my point. Coming across a MPH warning sign doesn't necessarily warn you of a new country, it certainly won't if you aren't aware of the differing standards used, for example if you were a tourist/not an Irish (in either way) resident.

Imagine you're in a situation where you aren't legally allowed to cross the border, but you have to be in a border area for whatever reason. How do you avoid crossing the border? SatNav aside, you can't make policy assuming everyone has a SatNav.

For this purpose hundreds of signs would be needed to cover every border crossing and this still would be of no help to any lost Chinese mountaineers without a valid visa!

EDIT: Would you put a sign here, for example?
The_Border_on_Killeen_School_Road_-_geograph.org.uk_-_446719.jpg

The_Border_on_Killeen_School_Road_-_geograph.org.uk_-_446719.jpg

Sound of Silence · 08-08-2012 12:03AM

TheChizler wrote: »

But that's my point. Coming across a MPH warning sign doesn't necessarily warn you of a new country, it certainly won't if you aren't aware of the differing standards used, for example if you were a tourist/not an Irish (in both ways) resident.

Coming across a MPH/KPH would mean that you're entering another Country. In fact it would be the clearest indication that you've entered another Country or jurisdiction.

Imagine you're in a situation where you aren't legally allowed to cross the border, but you have to be in a border area for whatever reason. How do you avoid crossing the border? SatNav aside, you can't make policy assuming everyone has a SatNav.

This is an exceedingly strange hypothetical as I would most likely have to assume that the person has not been provided with any sort of map, and yet they have to be in a very specific location - close enough to the border, but without crossing it.

I would tell them to keep an eye out for the MPH/KPH sign. If they can't see one, just look at the road; once the white line down the centre of the road ends, you're in the North. The Roads service up here don't seem to paint any small Country roads. The Road signs are also a dead giveaway as there is a very distinct difference in colour between those in the North and those in the South.

What exactly would be your solution? To place a "Welcome to Northern Ireland" sign on every major and minor road entering the North?

fasttalkerchat · 08-08-2012 12:04AM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

No, you need to answer the question. If your going to lie and say you've explained how it means Norhtern Ireland is in Britain then I'll just say no you didnt. Surely you'll want to shut me up and post the proof?

The Chizler made a couple of attempts to explain it to you but you ignored him.

Please just give it a rest. No one cares whether or not you said Great Britain or the UK. The point was made, you disputed it, anyone interested can read the relevant posts.

Guy:Incognito · 08-08-2012 12:10AM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Please just give it a rest. No one cares whether or not you said Great Britain or the UK. The point was made, you disputed it, anyone interested can read the relevant posts.

No. I made reasoned points and was met with childish posts and deflecting. I dont see why I should give anything a rest. All Geneyuss has to do is admit to being wrong or explain his point.

If you were that interested you could have told him how hes wrong ages ago. I can only assume you think this would be seen as you admitting that Northern Ireland exists or somthing, otherwise you are free to end the arguement and explain to him how the name United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland doesnt mean Northern Ireland is in Britain.

If you dont want to do that, feel free to keep out of it and continue wth your own debate. Why you felt the need to take the person making the reasoned point and tell them to give it a rest I dont know, is it just that I disagree with you on other issues?

Sound of Silence · 08-08-2012 12:10AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Glead people arent shooting at each other that's for sure.

I love that he makes the assumption that somehow all Nationalists disputes are likely to end in shooting and mayhem.

Good thing this was solved quickly, otherwise the 'RA would've rode again!

TheChizler · 08-08-2012 12:11AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Coming across a MPH/KPH would mean that you're entering another Country. In fact it would be the clearest indication that you've entered another Country or jurisdiction.

This is an exceedingly strange hypothetical as I would most likely have to assume that the person has not been provided with any sort of map, and yet they have to be in a very specific location - close enough to the border, but without crossing it.

I would tell them to keep an eye out for the MPH/KPH sign. If they can't see one, just look at the road; once the white line down the centre of the road ends, you're in the North. The Roads service up here don't seem to paint any small Country roads. The Road signs are also a dead giveaway as there is a very distinct difference in colour between those in the North and those in the South.

What exactly would be your solution? To place a "Welcome to Northern Ireland" sign on every major and minor road entering the North?

I dunno, a Pakistani reporter here to report on the poorly defined border, who has attained a southern visa but not on that would cover the north. I don't know. I admitted that it was a bit out there, but it's not unfathomable that the situation would crop up. Obviously I'm not calling for coverage on every single boreen, but if they have m/km signs up I don't see what the huge hassle for country signs would be (on a practical level).

I just think it's bizarre that there's no official statement that you are passing into another jurisdiction, and you don't know unless you are aware of the code implanted in speed signs.

Sound of Silence · 08-08-2012 12:21AM

TheChizler wrote: »

I just think it's bizarre that there's no official statement that you are passing into another jurisdiction, and you don't know unless you are aware of the code implanted in speed signs.

Unless we throw a fence around the whole North of the Island, someone's bound to cross the Border without immediately realising that they're in the UK.

We could, however, return to the 1970's and 80's and have countless Army Checkpoints littering the Border areas to give people a good idea of what side of the divide they're on.

For now I think the small MPH/KPH signs are suitable enough for their purpose. Certainly a lot cheaper and discreet than thousands of "Welcome to Northern Ireland" signs.

Melanoma · 08-08-2012 12:33AM

In the UK when you enter Wales it says welcome to Whales. They have the same currency and laws. There is nothing wrong with the sign.

In most counties there is a sign saying welcome to county ... There is nothing wrong with the signs.

Sinn Fein must become a more mature party and allow some things to pass by without over reacting. There are not a main stream party till they do.

Personally I like there being no signs as it is better to just pass through without thinking about it. I think leaving no signs for a while longer would be no harm.

On the other hand the idea tourists need to know about rule changes is valid. The 100 km to 60 mph is subtle but important. I'd rather just signs stating the speed limit.

I think the tourist thing might be best served without pointing out jurisdiction issue. Not for the time being at least.

Melanoma · 08-08-2012 12:35AM

Welcome to Whales, hehe.

Where To · 08-08-2012 12:49AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Coming across a MPH/KPH would mean that you're entering another Country. In fact it would be the clearest indication that you've entered another Country or jurisdiction.

This is an exceedingly strange hypothetical as I would most likely have to assume that the person has not been provided with any sort of map, and yet they have to be in a very specific location - close enough to the border, but without crossing it.

I would tell them to keep an eye out for the MPH/KPH sign. If they can't see one, just look at the road; once the white line down the centre of the road ends, you're in the North. The Roads service up here don't seem to paint any small Country roads. The Road signs are also a dead giveaway as there is a very distinct difference in colour between those in the North and those in the South.

What exactly would be your solution? To place a "Welcome to Northern Ireland" sign on every major and minor road entering the North?

That's not true.

Road markings on country roads on Donegal and Derry vary according to the contractor, not the jurisdiction.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=leiter+culdaff&hl=en&ll=55.301402,-7.172871&spn=0.049348,0.165825&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.136115,84.902344&hnear=Culdaff,+County+Donegal,+Ireland&t=m&z=13&layer=c&cbll=55.301144,-7.172849&panoid=0-nLjPRtYJO1Guzv5A_J0A&cbp=12,37.77,,0,0

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Carmoney+Road,+Eglinton,+United+Kingdom&hl=en&ll=55.020777,-7.236407&spn=0.006212,0.020728&sll=55.301109,-7.172871&sspn=0.04974,0.165825&oq=carmoney+road+&hnear=Carmoney+Rd,+Eglinton,+Londonderry,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=55.02074,-7.235516&panoid=AtI72aXiEbcZxK3pyCXucQ&cbp=12,101.24,,0,2.83

TheChizler · 08-08-2012 12:55AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

I just think it's bizarre that there's no official statement that you are passing into another jurisdiction, and you don't know unless you are aware of the code implanted in speed signs.

Unless we throw a fence around the whole North of the Island, someone's bound to cross the Border without immediately realising that they're in the UK.

We could, however, return to the 1970's and 80's and have countless Army Checkpoints littering the Border areas to give people a good idea of what side of the divide they're on.

For now I think the small MPH/KPH signs are suitable enough for their purpose. Certainly a lot cheaper and discreet than thousands of "Welcome to Northern Ireland" signs.

Oh course I'm not saying we fence off the north. I just think it weird as its the norm when driving from county to county and country to country both here and abroad.

I think it's unfortunate that the reason that there are no signs is either cause the locals are in denial, or for political reasons, in this case not willing to admit that they're deprecate countries. I also would think it unfortunate if the signs were up purely to distance them, as Is what happened this time. The signs are just a statement of fact and emotions and politics shouldn't come into it.

I find it bizarre that there is so much denial that we have pseudo boundary signs in the form of speed warnings.

awec · 08-08-2012 12:55AM

Don't see the issue. It's entertaining in fact.

Every so often when Sinn Fein start to panic that they're getting too cosy with the DUP they come out with nonsense like this to appease their more politically simple minded supporters. It usually works, they're pretty good at it by this stage. There's a reason it's a nobody like Phil Flanagan coming out with it though.

The uber-republicans will lap it up as some sort of victory when the signs disappear while everyone else looks on in a sense of bemusement.

Hopefully they keep replacing them, the continual yapping over a sign will amuse me further. Maybe the next ones could say "Welcome to the United Kingdom" just to take it up a notch, that'd really make them moist. Once we get the likes of Barry "Da Comoontay" McElduff or Conor "No Prods" Murphy commenting we're in business. And of course, let's not forget Director of Unionist Engagement (:pac:) Martina Anderson, she's bound to have some interesting views given her role.

If ye can't be light hearted about crap like this, when can ye be?

im invisible · 08-08-2012 12:55AM

but, aren't we all part of the British Isles anyway???:pac:

TheChizler · 08-08-2012 01:08AM

awec wrote: »

Don't see the issue. It's entertaining in fact.

Every so often when Sinn Fein start to panic that they're getting too cosy with the DUP they come out with nonsense like this to appease their more politically simple minded supporters. It usually works, they're pretty good at it by this stage. There's a reason it's a nobody like Phil Flanagan coming out with it though.

The uber-republicans will lap it up as some sort of victory when the signs disappear while everyone else looks on in a sense of bemusement.

Unfortunately I think you've hit the nail on the head.

johne30 · 08-08-2012 02:44AM

TheChizler wrote: »

Unfortunately I think you've hit the nail on the head.

LOOK THE SHINNERS MISSED THE BOAT . why didn't they insist on a new border commision before agreeing to th g f agrement . a new b commision was the way to go and would have returned parts of the border areas on n i side back to the irish state. blair was a gangster and would have agreed to anything to be famous but the s fein give in and signed it and there is no goin back now.

Genghis Khan. · 08-08-2012 03:01AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

But how could that possibly be bad Governance! I thought you guys were the plucky Rebels who were fighting for the rights of people and Counties.

Stormont should focus on local issues? Then I guess they will tear these signs down if the local Community don't in fact want them.

I'm sorry Genghis, but unless you start a new profile under some assumed name I'm going to find it difficult to take you seriously after having read your previous posts.

We don't live in 1969. Perhaps you should realise that the sun doesn't shine out of the arse of Dublin.

jaykay74 · 08-08-2012 05:42AM

I saw the sign and it opened up my eyes
I saw the sign
life is demanding without understanding
I saw the sign and it opened up my eyes
I saw the sign
no one's gonna drag you up
to get into the light where you belong
but where do you belong

Crooked Jack · 08-08-2012 06:40AM

awec wrote: »

Don't see the issue. It's entertaining in fact.

Every so often when Sinn Fein start to panic that they're getting too cosy with the DUP they come out with nonsense like this to appease their more politically simple minded supporters. It usually works, they're pretty good at it by this stage. There's a reason it's a nobody like Phil Flanagan coming out with it though.

The uber-republicans will lap it up as some sort of victory when the signs disappear while everyone else looks on in a sense of bemusement.

Hopefully they keep replacing them, the continual yapping over a sign will amuse me further. Maybe the next ones could say "Welcome to the United Kingdom" just to take it up a notch, that'd really make them moist. Once we get the likes of Barry "Da Comoontay" McElduff or Conor "No Prods" Murphy commenting we're in business. And of course, let's not forget Director of Unionist Engagement (:pac:) Martina Anderson, she's bound to have some interesting views given her role.

If ye can't be light hearted about crap like this, when can ye be?

lighthearted? That was a little bit too bitter to be lighthearted.

LordSutch · 08-08-2012 06:45AM

Sound of Silence wrote: »

The whole MPH/KPH issue is pretty irrelevant and would play no part in dictating where a person would or wouldn't go, unless they happen to be the most unadventurous Human Being on the planet.

If you actually considered it a real issue, I think an actual sign indicating that you've entered a MPH/KPH zone would be more appropriate than a sign that simply tells you that you've entered Northern Ireland, and provides you with absolutely no other information.

The sign serves no real practical purpose; certainly not in the sense that other posters have been arguing.

But what about telling people that they are now entering the Sterling/GBP zone, and that the speed signs will now be in Miles Per Hour (reset your Speedo), that the traffic lights have a different sequence (extra Orange)

and that they are in a new jurisdiction (as part of the UK), that you have now moved out of the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland. What about informing tourists that the telephone codes Vodafone UK/ O2 UK/ Orange UK mobile network/ have changed, and letting the driver know that you are now policed by the PSNI and not the Gardai, different laws, different rules of the road, sterling used in the shops etc . . . .

I think tourists would certainly benefit from the signs, and why not signal the fact that you are leaving the Republic and entering the UK? its a fact as you cross the border. I do understand that many peoplw wish the border didn't exist in the 1st place - but it does - and these signs inform drivers of the changes which I have highlighted above.

Would signs saying "YOU ARE NOW ENTERING ING THE UK" be any better?

mackg · 08-08-2012 06:50AM

If the signs are that important could we not just stick them on our side and have them say "You are now leaving the Republic of Ireland"?

If the problem is the term "Northern Ireland" surely that negates it.

Ghandee · 08-08-2012 06:56AM

LordSutch wrote: »

But what about telling people that they are now entering the Sterling/GBP zone, and that the speed signs will now be in Miles Per Hour (reset your Speedo), that the traffic lights have a different sequence (extra Orange) and that they are in a new jurisdiction (as part of the UK), that you have now moved out of the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland. What about informing tourists that the telephone codes Vodafone UK/ O2 UK/ Orange UK mobile network/ have changed, and letting the driver know that you are now policed by the PSNI and not the Gardai, different laws, different rules of the road, sterling used in the shops etc . . . .

I think tourists would certainly benefit from the signs, and why not signal the fact that you are leaving the Republic and entering the UK? its a fact as you cross the border. I do understand that many peoplw wish the border didn't exist in the 1st place - but it does - and these signs inform drivers of the changes which I have highlighted above.

Would signs saying "YOU ARE NOW ENTERING ING THE UK" be any better?

I've travelled from Holland to Belgium recently, didn't notice any of these signs tbh.

(open to correction on this, but certainly never noticed them)

My flemish speaking friend (Belgian) told me that 'you'd know you've entered Holland when the road changed'
As she said it, the car went over a slight bump, and the tarmacadam changed slightly. Then roadsigns changed, cars had coherent reg plates etc etc.

I find it strange that one section of the community in the north continually need to remind themselves where in the world they are.

philologos · 08-08-2012 06:57AM

mackg wrote: »

If the signs are that important could we not just stick them on our side and have them say "You are now leaving the Republic of Ireland"?

If the problem is the term "Northern Ireland" surely that negates it.

Its nonsense though. Would they prefer welcome to the United Kingdom? People need to realise that Northern Ireland is a part of the UK and most people including Catholics want it to stay that way in the latest opinion polls.

This is just a waste of time that could be spent on more important issues.

To note in most other EU land borders they do clearly tell you that you're leaving the country. If you're going to be bound to different laws that makes sense.

gurramok · 08-08-2012 07:09AM

philologos wrote: »

People need to realise that Northern Ireland is a part of the UK and most people including Catholics want it to stay that way in the latest opinion polls.

Not in the last election, they voted SF and SDLP. Interesting that the SDLP have been quiet on this issue so far, not condemning the signs removal.

LordSutch · 08-08-2012 07:09AM

Ghandee wrote: »

I've travelled from Holland to Belgium recently, didn't notice any of these signs tbh.

(open to correction on this, but certainly never noticed them)

My flemish speaking friend (Belgian) told me that 'you'd know you've entered Holland when the road changed'
As she said it, the car went over a slight bump, and the tarmacadam changed slightly. Then roadsigns changed, cars had coherent reg plates etc etc.

I find it strange that one section of the community in the north continually need to remind themselves where in the world they are.

But what about the spacific points I mention in post#412 re tourists?

mackg · 08-08-2012 07:15AM

philologos wrote: »

Its nonsense though. Would they prefer welcome to the United Kingdom? People need to realise that Northern Ireland is a part of the UK and most people including Catholics want it to stay that way in the latest opinion polls.

This is just a waste of time that could be spent on more important issues.

To note in most other EU land borders they do clearly tell you that you're leaving the country. If you're going to be bound to different laws that makes sense.

I've no real interest in getting dragged into this too much I was just offering a common sense alternative.

I don't really see the problem with the signs but then again I'm not familiar with the issues up there and don't really understand the nuances of the relationship between the two communities.

Chuck Stone · 08-08-2012 07:41AM

I'm sure if SF countered this.. 'territory marking' by seeking that 'Welcome To Ireland' signs be placed at the airports and ferry ports the issue would be quickly dropped.

A simple sign like this is all I could find on entering the six counties from the the Dublin direction on the main route between Ireland's two most populous cities.

Not much further up the road you have a bloody big sign offering currency exchange services.

Ghandee · 08-08-2012 07:58AM

LordSutch wrote: »

But what about the spacific points I mention in post#412 re tourists?

But Netherlands/Belgium would get their fair share of tourists also.
They have different laws (cannabis being one thing that jumps at me here)
In some regions, they speak completely different languages.
Different police forces.

philologos · 08-08-2012 08:01AM

gurramok wrote: »

Not in the last election, they voted SF and SDLP. Interesting that the SDLP have been quiet on this issue so far, not condemning the signs removal.

It's possible that some SDLP and SF voters aren't anti-union in the same way that not all Tories are anti-EU. For this reason the poll that clean out asks purely on the union rather than party affiliation is logically better.

Sinn Fein in a huff over new signs

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