Permission granted to grow GM potatoes in Ireland

Colmustard · 27-07-2012 04:11PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

They already have developed drought resistant corn, or are certainly along way advanced with its development

The question is where does your idea on food production end?? Fence to fence industrial farming sounds great but do you have any idea of the resources that are used to keep that show on the road?

What happens when you use all the supplies of potash?
What happens when we end up diverting more and more water for crop production?
Do you continue to destroy other habitats, such as rainforest, to grow more and more industrial food to feed an unsustainable population?

As i have already said i am not an organic farmer and despise the green movement - but i am not stupid enough to think that we can continue with this trend indefinately

I say over population is already the problem, you can't euthanise that population through starvation you somehow have to feed it for now. Industrial farming is the only way.

Either way whether it is sustainable or not, we have no choice, we hope there is a tech solution and GM is the only tech that can increase production while reducing other agricultural needs such as water, land use, chemicals ETC.

Organic is not a solution but a fantasy.

CruelCoin · 27-07-2012 04:16PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

If the entire planet was farmed organically we could still feed 7 billion people and probably fairly easily

Not really.

Organic farming produces roughly 33% of what industrial farming does.

Were to go all organic, we would have to at the very least double ALL land under agricultural use.

Not an awfull lot of room left for habitats, endangered slugs etc.

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 04:24PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Not really.

Organic farming produces roughly 33% of what industrial farming does.

Were to go all organic, we would have to at the very least double ALL land under agricultural use.

Not an awfull lot of room left for habitats, endangered slugs etc.

Where did you get 33% from??

Certainly in Ireland it would produce a hell of a lot more than that

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 04:28PM

Colmustard wrote: »

I say over population is already the problem, you can't euthanise that population through starvation you somehow have to feed it for now. Industrial farming is the only way.

Either way whether it is sustainable or not, we have no choice, we hope there is a tech solution and GM is the only tech that can increase production while reducing other agricultural needs such as water, land use, chemicals ETC.

Organic is not a solution but a fantasy.

What is this fascination about increasing production??

Do people not realise that Europe is still curtailing it's milk production through quotas for instance??

Europe has introduced things such as the Nitrates directive which limits the amount of nitrogen we can apply thereby reducing production

Production is not an issue

With regards to GM as far as i am aware there is no significant increase in yield of GM crops

CruelCoin · 27-07-2012 04:29PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Where did you get 33% from??

Certainly in Ireland it would produce a hell of a lot more than that

National Geographic. Reputable publication.

And no, the green green fields of Eire, etc, etc, would not produce more than 33% of what you could do with GM and chemicals.

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 04:38PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

National Geographic. Reputable publication.

And no, the green green fields of Eire, etc, etc, would not produce more than 33% of what you could do with GM and chemicals.

Lets be having some links to that then

Re your "Green Green field of Eire" comment, organic in Ireland can produce way more than 33% of commercial on the same land base - it is a lie to say otherwise. We haven't spread fertilser for our cattle enterprise for about 7 years now (we are not organic) and guess what we are growing nearly the same amount as when we farmed intensively. And we are making more money as a result

Using GM is the easy way out the question should be is it the sustainable way out

Colmustard · 27-07-2012 04:47PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

What is this fascination about increasing production??

Do people not realise that Europe is still curtailing it's milk production through quotas for instance??

Europe has introduced things such as the Nitrates directive which limits the amount of nitrogen we can apply thereby reducing production

Production is not an issue

With regards to GM as far as i am aware there is no significant increase in yield of GM crops

Then why is there food inflation??

I am sure you noticed price increases.

GM does increase yields a blight resistant potato would certainly increase yields in Ireland. It hasn't went away you know and Irish farmers still lose a significant amount of production through blight. Even if they drench the crop with anti blight chemicals.

WhatNowForUs? · 27-07-2012 04:48PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

lucylu wrote: »

My concern about the GM potato testing in Carlow is on the same Site Dr. Mary Coffey manages approx 100 Beehives, examining them and trialing products available in Europe trying eliminate the Varroa Mite and foul brood disesases on the Irish bee population. The Varroa mite is wiping out bee colonies worldwide.

A full working beehive have have 60k plus bees * 100 hives. a honeybee is pollen dependent and will forage on the 1 plant only.
Potato plants produces flowers. GM potato plants will also produce flowers.
A bee will travel for pollen up to 2 miles. There are alot of potato growers that have leased grounds around carlow town outskirts so cross pollination will be my fear.

I think bee keepers have more to worry about than gm crops like colony collapse disorder. If colony collapse disorder affects Ireland to a large degree Irish agriculture will be fecked. Also gm crops reduce the need for pesticide which is one of the potential causes of colony collapse disorder.

Does anybody know if GM crops have a lower pollen count in their flowers compared to the equivalent plant?

My name is URL · 27-07-2012 04:55PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Then why is there food inflation??

I am sure you noticed price increases.

http://www.independent.ie/farming/potato-surplus-sparks-call-for-25pc-cut-in-crop-3074996.html

Supply has been around 25% greater than demand for the last few years. I really don't know where people are getting the idea that it's imperative to switch to a blight resistant crop in order to protect or increase productivity. It's in no real danger to begin with.

WhatNowForUs? · 27-07-2012 05:04PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

The problem with the famine was not just about the potato blight, there was plenty of food being shipped out of the country.
Now if the government of the day all-be-it governed from London was willing to ship out food in front of the starving millions what would a corporation do who has these crop patented and are governed by share holder profits.

For one it's not the 1800's, corporation witholding of goods resulting in millions dying would not happen today.

Also, there was not so much corn being shipped out that it could have supported the 4 million that died/left. Perhaps 250k but thats about it.

I was replying to a post which had mentioned the famine and using it as a reason to us GM crops.

If you think that coporations would not ship out a countries product if there were starving millions in the said country you are naive in the extreme.

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 05:09PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Then why is there food inflation??

I am sure you noticed price increases.

GM does increase yields a blight resistant potato would certainly increase yields in Ireland. It hasn't went away you know and Irish farmers still lose a significant amount of production through blight. Even if they drench the crop with anti blight chemicals.

Couple of reasons for food inflation

1. Costs go up over time - so diesel, fertiliser, medicines have all increased dramatically
2. The Chinese (and others) are getting richer and are prepared to spend their money on food - western countries no longer have it all their own way on the world markets

As i have said already production is not an issue -certainly not a long term 1. Issues such as US drought obviously lead to spikes. its the general trend thats important

Colmustard · 27-07-2012 05:14PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Couple of reasons for food inflation

1. Costs go up over time - so diesel, fertiliser, medicines have all increased dramatically
2. The Chinese (and others) are getting richer and are prepared to spend their money on food - western countries no longer have it all their own way on the world markets

As i have said already production is not an issue -certainly not a long term 1. Issues such as US drought obviously lead to spikes. its the general trend thats important

So you agree with me, with the increase of demand from the Far East supply is an issue, hence the price increases.

Increase supply you lower the price you potentially feed more people.

Duggys Housemate · 27-07-2012 05:16PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Colmustard wrote: »

Then why is there food inflation??

I am sure you noticed price increases.

GM does increase yields a blight resistant potato would certainly increase yields in Ireland. It hasn't went away you know and Irish farmers still lose a significant amount of production through blight. Even if they drench the crop with anti blight chemicals.

Couple of reasons for food inflation

1. Costs go up over time - so diesel, fertiliser, medicines have all increased dramatically
2. The Chinese (and others) are getting richer and are prepared to spend their money on food - western countries no longer have it all their own way on the world markets

As i have said already production is not an issue -certainly not a long term 1. Issues such as US drought obviously lead to spikes. its the general trend thats important

1) over the long term prices in food have reduced because of the green revolution.
2) that argument is spurious. The west is generally self sufficient. If it became a political football that beef became more expensive because of the Chinese we would produce more beef, or export less.

It is changes in technology which make food cheaper relative to wages, and GM is part of that. Lab grown meat is another.

Colmustard · 27-07-2012 05:16PM

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/farming/potato-surplus-sparks-call-for-25pc-cut-in-crop-3074996.html

Supply has been around 25% greater than demand for the last few years. I really don't know where people are getting the idea that it's imperative to switch to a blight resistant crop in order to protect or increase productivity. It's in no real danger to begin with.

Because demand is growing, as India, China and the african economies grow they are demanding more food.

We need cheap food, therefore a cheaper more efficient supply is good future planning.

Colmustard · 27-07-2012 05:19PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

1) over the long term prices in food have reduced because of the green revolution.
2) that argument is spurious. The west is generally self sufficient. If it became a political football that beef became more expensive because of the Chinese we would produce more beef, or export less.

It is changes in technology which make food cheaper relative to wages, and GM is part of that. Lab grown meat is another.

Yes till now, the green revolution met the supply, but now a greater supply is needed. Besides the green revolution is on shaky grounds, it is a very thirsty way of farming and water is an issue in all production centres as in North America and the Punjab.

We need another tech leap. Maybe that will be GM.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-07-2012 05:20PM

I only came across this thread.

Title Edit: Permission granted to grow dumb down spuds.

No doubt the EU is behind this.

Dave! · 27-07-2012 05:22PM

As if this thread didn't have enough crazy....

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 05:29PM

Colmustard wrote: »

So you agree with me, with the increase of demand from the Far East supply is an issue, hence the price increases.

Increase supply you lower the price you potentially feed more people.

No because the problem is distribution of food not supply of food - there is a huge difference. If i milk 10 extra cows this evening it is not going to help any starving child in Africa. People need to realise that cheap food will NOT help the starving people around the world. We tried giving them FREE food before and that was a disaster

The price increases also goes back to what i said earlier about the %age of household budgets spent on food. Asian (and some african) countries are prepared to spend a higher %age on food - so although they are not as well off as Western countries they are still strong buyers

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 05:31PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

1) over the long term prices in food have reduced because of the green revolution.
2) that argument is spurious. The west is generally self sufficient. If it became a political football that beef became more expensive because of the Chinese we would produce more beef, or export less.

It is changes in technology which make food cheaper relative to wages, and GM is part of that. Lab grown meat is another.

Sorry wrong post quoted

Tipp Man · 27-07-2012 05:32PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Because demand is growing, as India, China and the african economies grow they are demanding more food.

We need cheap food, therefore a cheaper more efficient supply is good future planning.

did you even read his post and the linked article

Supply of spuds in Ireland outstripped demand for spuds in Ireland by 25% over the last few years

Spud farmers have been making losses and dumping spuds.

THIS IS NOT A PRODUCTION ISSUE

WhatNowForUs? · 27-07-2012 05:34PM

Colmustard wrote: »

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

The problem with the famine was not just about the potato blight, there was plenty of food being shipped out of the country.
Now if the government of the day all-be-it governed from London was willing to ship out food in front of the starving millions what would a corporation do who has these crop patented and are governed by share holder profits.

LOL
The British government never forced the Irish farmers (and they were Irish) to ship their produce to Britain. They did it because they were in the business of farming..

You there WhatNowForUs You have a field of 100 cattle that you have raised and farmed and it is time for them to go to the market. You hear of a famine in the west of Ireland. So do you ship your produce to them for free or do you sell them to the market for a profit.

Don't be ashamed of your answer because all of us would also sell them to the market. That is business and human nature.

That was my point. What do you think I was saying.

Conflats · 27-07-2012 05:56PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Well the iphone is a symbol of consumerism - why do you think Apple have become one of the biggest companies in the world in the last few years

In your typical western economy food accounts for about 6% of household expenditure - compared to 30% in the 70's. The public is demanding that our most important item of expenditure is produced cheaper and cheaper so that more money is available for "discretionary" expenditure. If the public was willing to pay proper prices for food produced in a sustainable manner then long term the world would be much better off

On your last point - Why mess with nature when you can use natural selection methods?

Your last point- the natural selection methods have been used for 100's of years and have failed in producing a blight resistant potato which meets taste and market requirements.

I personally do not see a problem when you get the genes of a plant which for a simple term is related and put them into its relation. The reduction of fungicides on to a crop is a key issue for potato farmers, it also would benefit the environment. The Teagasc potatoes came from a university in the Netherlands which was publicly funded so thus publicly owned. The gene that has been transferred exists in nature in the wild potato so its just speeding up the process.

Conflats · 27-07-2012 06:01PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

1) over the long term prices in food have reduced because of the green revolution.
2) that argument is spurious. The west is generally self sufficient. If it became a political football that beef became more expensive because of the Chinese we would produce more beef, or export less.

It is changes in technology which make food cheaper relative to wages, and GM is part of that. Lab grown meat is another.

The west is not self sufficient in one essential product of proteins such as soya soy prices are going upwards because of the chinese buying it up. A large proportion of this comes from south america.

And beef has become more expensive due to the Chinese down to the fact they buy the 5th quarter as its known.

steddyeddy · 28-07-2012 04:06PM

Moe letters about this in the paper today. Where where all the letters from those concerned about nature when the sea eagle was poisoned or pesticides where introduced?

Nodin · 28-07-2012 04:18PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I only came across this thread.

Title Edit: Permission granted to grow dumb down spuds.

No doubt the EU is behind this.

I hear once abortion is brought in, they'll use them stem cells to genetically modify the spuds.

SocSocPol · 28-07-2012 04:22PM

Nodin wrote: »

I hear once abortion is brought in, they'll use them stem cells to genetically modify the spuds.

Yes, then they will give them all free cars houses and buggies.
Oops nearly forgot, and mobile fones.

MadYaker · 28-07-2012 06:11PM

The only reason people are opposed to this sort of change is because they lack a basic understanding genetic engineering. This is a good thing. The only difference between these spuds and non GM spuds is that these ones will grow faster and be more resistant to blight. They will look the same and taste the same. I understand why anyone has a problem with this.

granturismo · 28-07-2012 07:13PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I only came across this thread.
Title Edit: Permission granted to grow dumb down spuds.
No doubt the EU is behind this.

Queue the black helicopters and blue helmets taking over Carlow, oh wait thats the Michigan Militias conspiracy theory of how the UN runs the US.

Dave! · 31-07-2012 09:08AM

Just read this letter in the IT this morning and thought it was good

Sir, – Darina Allen’s letter on GM crops (July 28th) is either blatant disinformation or stunning ignorance. Contrary to her claims, the blight-resistant GM potato trials are not a result of multi-nationals “getting their way” as it is Teagasc, an independent State research body, which is to carry out the trials.

Further, Ms Allen’s assertion that there will be “likely effects on insect life, eg bees” is pure scaremongering as the GM potatoes to be tested protect against blight (which is a fungus) and they have no new ability to impact insect life.

Lastly, her suggestion that Ireland’s green food image is damaged by the trials is actually the opposite as the GM potatoes in question could help cut the 250,000lbs of toxic fungicide used annually against potato blight in Ireland which could certainly enhance the image of Irish agriculture as truly green and sustainable.

Ms Allen has shown yet again that taking crop science advice from celebrity chefs is like taking tax advice from those who do the art on your tenner euro. – Yours, etc,

Dr SHANE MORRIS, PhD,
Coolkill,
Sandyford, Dublin 18.

My name is URL · 31-07-2012 10:49AM

Shane Morris is a well known industry shill and lobbyist, and has been condemned by the UK parliament for his attempts to mislead the public and silence those who oppose him.

That this House regrets the continuing attempts to silence or misrepresent scientists whose research indicates possible human health problems from GM crops ... deplores the continuing efforts by an employee of the Canadian Government, Shane Morris, to close down websites in the UK and Republic of Ireland which have, along with Dr Richard Jennings of Cambridge University, said that research which claimed that consumers prefer GM sweetcorn published by this employee and others and given an Award for Excellence, is a flagrant fraud

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/business-papers/commons/early-day-motions/edm-detail1/?session=2007-08&edmnumber=425

Permission granted to grow GM potatoes in Ireland

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