Permission granted to grow GM potatoes in Ireland

Seaneh · 26-07-2012 11:10AM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

None of which has anything to do with GM crops

IT has to do with GM foodstuffs though.

Also, the poster your quoted didn't specify GM crops, they merely said "There's enough artificial stuff in our foods out there as it is and it's having a crazy impact on people".

You asked them to back it up, I backed it up for them...

Cú Giobach · 26-07-2012 11:13AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Again, this is different.

We are isolating already present genetic advantages and over the course of generations developing something that is of more use to us. We turned corn and wheat from useless grasses to massive portions of the westren diet of hundreds/thousands of years. We do the same thing with cows, pigs, sheep, dogs, I know this.

But what monsanto and their ilk do is introduce entirely alien genetics into an organism, like thier beans and corn products.

These products are bad news, on a lot of levels.

I am just pointing out genetic modification has been going on for a long time, and not always with good results nor only using "already present genetic advantages", look at this poor creature.

There is good and bad in modifying genes the key point is "be very fucking careful".
I have no time for Monsanto etc.. as they are driven by profit, not by a desire to do good.

Seaneh · 26-07-2012 11:13AM

SocSocPol wrote: »

None of which has anything at all to do with GM foods, GM is NOT an additive!

None of those are from additives, they are from GM dairy cows, GM chickens and so forth.
Those animals are feed with GM cereals which make them grow quicker/produce more and the end result is, dun dun dun, the stuff I listed.

--Kaiser-- · 26-07-2012 11:15AM

Seaneh wrote: »

IT has to do with GM foodstuffs though.

Also, the poster your quoted didn't specify GM crops, they merely said "There's enough artificial stuff in our foods out there as it is and it's having a crazy impact on people".

You asked them to back it up, I backed it up for them...

(Actually, making statements without any evidence is not backing anything up, but anyway....)

How is feeding growth hormomes to chickens anything to do with GM? Merely a rhetorical question because I know the answer

Seaneh · 26-07-2012 11:16AM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I am just pointing out genetic modification has been going on for a long time, and not always with good results nor only using "already present genetic advantages", look at this poor creature.

There is good and bad in modifying genes the key point is "be very fucking careful".
I have no time for Monsanto etc.. as they are driven by profit, not by a desire to do good.

The problem is, that companies like Monsanto are the ones who will benefit from this in the long run.

Spuds will go the way of soy and corn and people won't be allowed to save their seed potatoes because some bastarding company will have a "patent" on the ****ing plant, that patented plant will cross contaminate the other plants in the area and then the company will sue the farmers who aren't even planting their organism for patent breech because of cross contamination.
It's already happening in the US.

steddyeddy · 26-07-2012 11:18AM

More or less every crop in Ireland is already genetically modified.

Seaneh · 26-07-2012 11:22AM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

(Actually, making statements without any evidence is not backing anything up, but anyway....)

How is feeding growth hormomes to chickens anything to do with GM? Merely a rhetorical question because I know the answer

Well, the chickens aren't just fed the growth hormones, the genetically modified corns they are fed also cause their bodies to produce more of the hormones themselves.

Cows fed GM corn/soy produce meat with much higher fat content and lower nutritional values.

etc, etc, etc.

My name is URL · 26-07-2012 11:23AM

I've no problem with the idea of GM crops in theory. Though if it goes in the way of the US where a couple of massive and highly litigious corporations have a monopoly on the market I wouldn't be too keen on it. There's various documentaries about Monsanto etc which people should watch just to get an idea of how they operate.

The whole GM thing was originally touted as a way to help farmers, and instead has led to thousands upon thousands of farmers been put out of action throughout the world. Monsanto have actually sued farmers because their patented seeds were found amongst their own crops (carried by wind in some cases). Some of their patented crops also require increased applications of pesticides, which in turn leads to soil degradation.

The modern agribusiness sector isn't as progressive as it lets on to be. It causes more problems than it solves in many cases.

--Kaiser-- · 26-07-2012 11:25AM

Seaneh wrote: »

Well, the chickens aren't just fed the growth hormones, the genetically modified corns they are fed also cause their bodies to produce more of the hormones themselves.

Cows fed GM corn/soy produce meat with much higher fat content and lower nutritional values.

etc, etc, etc.

Still waiting on that evidence. My thoughts are that problems with growth hormones would be due to the fact animals are injected with growth hormone to increase their size. Again, nothing to do with GM crops

Cú Giobach · 26-07-2012 11:30AM

Seaneh wrote: »

The problem is, that companies like Monsanto are the ones who will benefit from this in the long run.

Spuds will go the way of soy and corn and people won't be allowed to save their seed potatoes because some bastarding company will have a "patent" on the ****ing plant, that patented plant will cross contaminate the other plants in the area and then the company will use the farmers who aren't even playing their organism for patent breech because of cross contamination.
It's already happening in the US.

You're spot on there, though that is mis-use of the "tool", it is not genetic modification itself that is bad in the above examples, but how it is used.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, the modern world sadly runs on greed at the moment, and until that changes many wonderful tools we have will be used to put profit over people.

Conflats · 26-07-2012 11:31AM

CardBordWindow wrote: »

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But the problem is it is broke, Late blight is rampant this year especially due to the climate we live in, farmers are having great difficulty controlling the disease along with the fact the end up applying upto 15 sprays a season to try and hold the infection off.
Also the potatoes used in this trial use genes from the potato family from a region in mexico which is rampant in the strains of blight
Blight has shown the ability to become more aggressive with new strains and also the ability to become resistant to fungicides (selection pressure) GM is going to be another tool in the arsenal against this disease. If the trials are not done how can we find out how the potato behaves in the environment?

girl2 · 26-07-2012 11:49AM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Evidence?

I am referring to the evidence that the consumption of artificial products in some people's diets are producing side effects that mimic strokes, multiple sclerosis and a multitude of other auto immune diseases.

Here are a couple of websites that can give some food for thought……

http://www.foodandhealing.com/articles/article-aspartame.htm

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/dangers.html

http://m.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/the-very-real-danger-of-genetically-modified-foods/251051/

Shenshen · 26-07-2012 11:53AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Rice has been GM for decades, probably hasn't bothered you though has it?

GM usually means less artificial stuff required to make them grow, so the post is a contradiction in itself.

Somnus · 26-07-2012 11:55AM

I posted a lot in the GM thread a few months ago, so might try and avoid this one as the arguements get too frustrating.

I'm glad to see this being implemented. I agree with GM foods and think that the development of the industry will be a good thing here.
The only problem with it in my eyes are legal matters, which is nothing to do with the science/safety of the food.
The more organisations growing GM the more it will create a competitive marketplace, hence solving the monopoly problem.

Oh and for the pro-GM posters using selective breeding as an argument, it's not really the same thing but I know what you're trying to put across.

Duggys Housemate · 26-07-2012 11:57AM

Those articles tend to be rubbish, or mix up GM food with additives.

The OP is going to be surprised that his sarcastic comment about abominations and God got such serious replies, after all he did go on to say he welcomed GM food. I suppose that some people stop reading at God and had to get their new Atheist reply in.

SocSocPol · 26-07-2012 12:04PM

Seaneh wrote: »

None of those are from additives, they are from GM dairy cows, GM chickens and so forth.
Those animals are feed with GM cereals which make them grow quicker/produce more and the end result is, dun dun dun, the stuff I listed.

Link to factual scientific evidence for this?

Somnus · 26-07-2012 12:08PM

girl2 wrote: »

I am referring to the evidence that the consumption of artificial products in some people's diets are producing side effects that mimic strokes, multiple sclerosis and a multitude of other auto immune diseases.

Here are a couple of websites that can give some food for thought……

http://www.foodandhealing.com/articles/article-aspartame.htm

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/dangers.html

http://m.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/the-very-real-danger-of-genetically-modified-foods/251051/

Ah the old Aspartame arguement. Pure bullsh*t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame#Safety_and_approval_controversies

Anything is harmful in large enough doses, no one consumes near enough aspartame in their diet to have any effects at all.

The only article there worth reading is the last one. As it is actually backed up with a paper from Nature. Very interesting. But the miRNA could be harmful regardless of GM or not, as that article says it was just a normal rice crop, and also the genes being introduced to the plant may not code for miRNAs at all, so no problem there.

In fact you should read this article, in which the author states he contacted the editor of your third link and that it was corrected
http://biologyfiles.fieldofscience.com/2012/01/why-did-atlantic-publish-this-piece.html

Cú Giobach · 26-07-2012 12:09PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The OP is going to be surprised that his sarcastic comment about abominations and God got such serious replies, after all he did go on to say he welcomed GM food. I suppose that some people stop reading at God and had to get their new Atheist reply in.

Interesting that the only mention of god outside the OP was one person saying "God?" and you. (and now me of course).

--Kaiser-- · 26-07-2012 12:09PM

girl2 wrote: »

I am referring to the evidence that the consumption of artificial products in some people's diets are producing side effects that mimic strokes, multiple sclerosis and a multitude of other auto immune diseases.

Here are a couple of websites that can give some food for thought……

http://www.foodandhealing.com/articles/article-aspartame.htm

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/dangers.html

http://m.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/the-very-real-danger-of-genetically-modified-foods/251051/

That aspartame study was debunked years ago Link

Thanks for the rest, I'll have a look

Duggys Housemate · 26-07-2012 12:18PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Interesting that the only mention of god outside the OP was one person saying "God?" and you. (and now me of course).

There were 3 who took the abdominations or God seriously.

--Kaiser-- · 26-07-2012 12:18PM

Here's a good article, stating GM debate is commonly based on emotion rather than evidence.
http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/1526/gm-debate-in-europe-based-on-emotion-not-evidence

And they have a point, you can see by the rhetoric people use...

It's not natural! - cyandide is natural, doesn't mean it's good for you (and vice versa)

It's messing with nature! - we've been messing wit nature for hundreds of thousands of years, most of the food we eat bears little resemblance to the plants and animals we bred them from

It's bad for the environment! - actually, creating pest resistant crops is good for the environment

and so on and so forth

Conflats · 26-07-2012 12:21PM

A big marketing focus point for organic producers is no pesticides or artificial fertilizer's.
GM has the potential to cut the use of pesticides and is showing promise on the use of special bacteria on legume plants being transferred to non legumes.
A big point which often comes out in debates on GM is why dont we go organic? simple reason is we used to go organic but then we discovered ways to improve production and hence population grew due to the abundance of food in part.
If GM technology became widespread in Europe the organic movement would be down in a marketing strategy and thus wiping out their large premiums over 'conventional' produce.

wellboytoo · 26-07-2012 12:25PM

I heard they have genetically engineered a snorkel into the spuds for the Irish climate

Somnus · 26-07-2012 12:40PM

Conflats wrote: »

A big point which often comes out in debates on GM is why dont we go organic?

Plus there's nothing to stop an organic (hate that term) crop being completely decimated by a pest. We'll all starve now because there was no pesticides used, goodie.

Cú Giobach · 26-07-2012 12:41PM

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Those articles tend to be rubbish, or mix up GM food with additives.

The OP is going to be surprised that his sarcastic comment about abominations and God got such serious replies, after all he did go on to say he welcomed GM food. I suppose that some people stop reading at God and had to get their new Atheist reply in.

So someone saying "God, ah hold on" and someone saying " You know the word 'abomination' has a negative connotation?" note the smiley.
are new Atheists (what ever they are) getting their reply in, and taking things seriously.
Come on.

PS I'm not going further on this line because the thread is going too well to be disturbed by someone bringing atheism or god into it.

Duggys Housemate · 26-07-2012 12:46PM

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So someone saying "God, ah hold on" and someone saying " You know the word 'abomination' has a negative connotation?" note the smiley.
are new Atheists (what ever they are) getting their reply in, and taking things seriously.
Come on.

PS I'm not going further on this line because the thread is going too well to be disturbed by someone bringing atheism or god into it.

I am going further because the OP did thank me. You could have not responded.

On page 1, without a smiley vic Watson writes " God, on come on" and gets 3 thanks as of now. Post 23 sees books4sale opine Steady on there, not everyone believes in fairytales. Sea Filly might have been joking.

Since I had read the entire thread before posting, it was worth a comment. Your response was unneeded.

bbam · 26-07-2012 12:47PM

Surely GM is just a much more efficient method of selective proactive breeding that we have been practicing for hundreds of years. The introduction of orange carrots being a great example.
And Appart from tallaght not many people have turned orange, although I suspect it wasn't from eating carriots that happened

From the last information I read there has been no evidence that any negative effects are passed on to animals or humans consuming it.

Also someone mentioned problems with hormones in chickens and the like being passed on to humans. This isn't from GM crops, this from the introduction of growth hormones to animals to increase live weight gain and I would suspect it makes it's way into our food chain. This is why such products are banned in Ireland. Buy Irish meat and your safer.

Selective proactive breeding is part of our food chain. GM just regulates and makes the process more efficient. I don't have a problem with it.

The mention of God by OP is interesting. Im sure its no coincidence that people who have a fear of science but use God to rationalise their fear?

Duggys Housemate · 26-07-2012 12:49PM

As for the main topic, regulated GM is a good idea. I don't get the hatred of Monsanto either. They are accused of creating terminator seeds by the same ideologues who fear genetic spread. But we would need termination to prevent contamination.

Conflats · 26-07-2012 12:50PM

Dr.Poca wrote: »

Plus there's nothing to stop an organic (hate that term) crop being completely decimated by a pest. We'll all starve now because there was no pesticides used, goodie.

OH in fact i agree with you the organic crops are extremely difficult to grow in Ireland with disease and it's all well and good saying grow the sarpo varieties but the simple fact is the consumer will not buy them, they will give out when they can't buy their rooster or kerr's pink.
Organic potato growers use a known heavy metal for the control of blight which was widespread in use years ago until it was succeeded by chemicals which are easier on the actual plant due to the fact copper sulphate is phytotoxic.
Now i don't want to seem like i'm bashing organic lads everyone to there own but the consumer needs to be made aware of the facts on both sides of the argument

Channel Zero · 26-07-2012 12:50PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Here's a good article, stating GM debate is commonly based on emotion rather than evidence.
http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/article/1526/gm-debate-in-europe-based-on-emotion-not-evidence

And they have a point, you can see by the rhetoric people use...

It's not natural! - cyandide is natural, doesn't mean it's good for you (and vice versa)

It's messing with nature! - we've been messing wit nature for hundreds of thousands of years, most of the food we eat bears little resemblance to the plants and animals we bred them from

It's bad for the environment! - actually, creating pest resistant crops is good for the environment

and so on and so forth

That's a gross-oversimplication of those arguments, so they are easy to dismiss as 'emotional'.
There are many others though who oppose the roll-out of gm that don't neatly fit in to your stereotype of a clueless luddite.

http://www.foodnavigator.com/Financial-Industry/France-calls-on-Commission-to-ban-Monsanto-GM-corn

Permission granted to grow GM potatoes in Ireland

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