10 shot dead at Batman showing in Denver

lesserspottedchloe · 21-07-2012 06:48PM

Very good report on this here. Some of the eyewitness accounts-absolutely awful.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/aurora-dark-knight-shooting-suspect-identified-james-holmes/story?id=16818889#.UArmxc1zNQM[/URL]

As far as gun laws are concerned there's pros and cons to both sides of the argument. The situation is a mess and it's far, far too easy to get hold of weapons in America but the fact is they're already out there and people need to be allowed to defend themselves against the threat that poses. It's a viscous circle.

Situations like this http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/05/9968356-no-charges-for-teen-widow-who-killed-intruder?litehappen far too frequently in America and it does make you think about what would have happened this mother and baby had she not been armed to defend herself?

Personally I'm undecided. I don't think it's as black and white as others are making out. I'm anti guns but pro people defending themselves appropriately. What I consider to be more important issues raised by this tragedy are mental health awareness and societal problems. Guns don't kill people-people do.

Nodin · 21-07-2012 07:03PM

Reading a good few of the comments on this thread, you'd be forgiven for thinking a number of weapons had gone to a cinema and shot up the place.

Mardy Bum · 21-07-2012 07:04PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Religion has something to do with it? Fine, if we want religious equivalencies, is not a priest usually referred to as a shepherd taking care of his flock? Is it not the responsibility of a shepherd to protect the flock of sheep under his care?

My post was in relation to somebody saying that they know of a priest or pastor, who brings a gun to church in America not Iraq. Im not saying religion has something to do with it, Im saying that if it has gotten to the point were passive men who are supposed to preach the "Golden Rule" are bringing guns to their place of ministry then there has come a point where something has gone terrible wrong with the society. I posted a clip of Brass Eye which took the piss out of such a notion but low and behold this has actually happened, although it is only a once off anecdotal occurrence.

There will psychopaths in every society so limiting the availability of guns is important. The most dangerous thing following something like this is the media coverage of the story which low and behold has been as sensationalist as ever and will no doubt inspire some other whacko to do the same thing.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 07:05PM

You know I have been following this and I think the element that is missing here is the recognition of the social control that firearms exert on American society.

Naturally there is the theory that a well-armed society is a polite society, I certainly see none of the road-rage seen on Irish roads on a daily basis. It is also much more common to greet strangers immediately, and walking into a small store without greeting the staff is rarely done. Why? Because people like to get a sense of what people are about and there is always the possibility of having to react to a firearms situation.

You will hear a lot of talk about the "right to bear arms" however the reality is that in the US it is a privilege to bear arms and that exerts social control. A felon cannot even touch a firearm in the land of the free home of the brave that is also the land of the strong - not having access to firearms weakens you and most Americans will avoid that like the plague.

In my state, a Concealed Carry also requires good character, not just no felonies but no DWI, domestic violence or drugs misdemeanors in the last 5 years. You also get a choice between CCW and a Med Marijuana card (you cannot hold both) This naturally has the effect as CCW applications go up, people get more careful about what they do in society to retain their permit.

With that privilege comes responsibility. You will also have it absolutely drilled into you that having a permit does not make you a freelance policeman and that you are fully legally accountable for any consequence of discharging the weapon. You shoot what you thought was a bad guy and are wrong, you are going to jail for a long time. This means CCW permit holders consider that situation long and hard before drawing - this is no longer the Wild West despite some of the attitudes prevailing (the positive ones, help your neighbour, be honest, defend your family)
Stats tend to show that permit holders are more law-abiding - but this is also hotly debated

Some posters seem to miss the point about "more guns" as the solution, the concern for many permit holders is that there are an increasing number of places where property owners post "no guns" signs which have force of law. The nutters naturally are smart enough not to go postal at a gun show or police station, but those places that ban guns. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, and other spree killing locations all had gun bans. Some people have asked how the Aurora killer got guns into the building, well he walked past a picture of a gun with a big red strike through it. Others were legally forced to comply with that sign including three ex-military civilians who were injured in the attack.

I don't think the majority of hostility towards America displayed on this thread is meant with any real hatred, but I do wonder if many posting here have actually considered what they would do if they were living here, with the option to own a firearm as a last line of defence under/beside the bed to protect their family, would they take that privilege offered to them by the US?

steelcityblues · 21-07-2012 07:06PM

Nodin wrote: »

Reading a good few of the comments on this thread, you'd be forgiven for thinking a number of weapons had gone to a cinema and shot up the place.

Sounds like a good story for a future film.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 07:09PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

My post was in relation to somebody saying that they know of a priest or pastor, who brings a gun to church in America not Iraq. .

He's a deacon. A 'civilian' lay person in the church. Not an 'employee'.

UCDVet · 21-07-2012 07:16PM

I'm not sure why so many people are talking about gun control laws. The gun control laws in Ireland would not prevent someone from shooting people.

Of course, that's if you assume that people who are going to shoot people are also going to respect gun control laws.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 07:18PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Number of guns isn't the issue. It's the freedom with which you can tote them around.

America is, so far as I know and willing to be proved otherwise, the only otherwise normal democracy which allows the ordinary citizen to walk down the high street carrying a loaded firearm. Canada does NOT allow its citizens to do that.

I asked that specific question of an Irish-born mountie home on a visit only a few weeks ago.

You might want to look up Open Carry. There is a long list of OC countries. Even one in Europe - the Czech republic, also Czech gun law allow its citizens to carry a concealed weapon without having any specific reason.

I've had a gun pulled on me twice out there, once by a cop, one by a pissed off taxi driver.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Open_carry

My name is URL · 21-07-2012 07:21PM

I must say I'm surprised by some of the people who are arguing on the side of the pro-gun argument. I wouldn't have expected some of those to be of that particular persuasion.

Somebody will be linking to Conservapedia next... oh wait.

Witcher · 21-07-2012 07:24PM

UCDVet wrote: »

I'm not sure why so many people are talking about gun control laws. The gun control laws in Ireland would not prevent someone from shooting people.

Of course, that's if you assume that people who are going to shoot people are also going to respect gun control laws.

Nothing is going to stop gun violence except eradication of firearms. That's why it's called gun control, you can only try and control the situation. Look at the measures you go through to get a firearm here, it would be easier to just get one illegally..probably cheaper too.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 07:42PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I must say I'm surprised by some of the people who are arguing on the side of the pro-gun argument. I wouldn't have expected some of those to be of that particular persuasion.

Somebody will be linking to Conservapedia next... oh wait.

A stopped clock is right twice a day.

And yes, I'm politically left leaning and liberal, that includes liberal in the real sense about gun control - although I do believe all firearms should be registered and a test fire for rifling on file for CSI purposes. You will also note that Reagan and Bush enacted stronger gun controls than say Obama (given an F by the Brady campaign)

Manic Moran · 21-07-2012 07:56PM

My post was in relation to somebody saying that they know of a priest or pastor, who brings a gun to church in America not Iraq. Im not saying religion has something to do with it, Im saying that if it has gotten to the point were passive men who are supposed to preach the "Golden Rule" are bringing guns to their place of ministry then there has come a point where something has gone terrible wrong with the society.

I agree with you that there are certain societal problems that anyone should feel it worthwhile to be armed as they go about their daily business, but I don't believe that the clergy should be exempt from being 'anyone', just like anyone else. The bottom line is that there are risks to both your safety and those around you, and those risks tend not to be respecters of the cloth.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 08:04PM

Spookily, it was in Aurora that one of the congregation (an off duty cop) shot this guy in the car park after he killed a woman.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/suspect-in-colo-church-sh_n_1450313.html

Church shootings are getting more common.

http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/crime_checker/howard_county_crime/new-information-on-deadly-church-shooting-in-howard-county

Some (potentially biased) stats here by a "security consultant".

http://www.carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html

MadsL · 21-07-2012 08:11PM

Incidentally for all those up in arms about US gun control, did you happen to note the consequences when an armed 71 year old dealt with two armed robbers at an internet cafe. They were arrested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrDi9x1cFeg

Meanwhile Irish police let four armed robbers out bail! Wtf?

http://www.thejournal.ie/long-mile-road-petrol-station-armed-robbery-525792-Jul2012/

21-07-2012 08:12PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

If you want to go at the group of bunnies, you might want the semi-auto feature. I'd wager that after the first one goes down, the others won't be hanging around very long. And the higher power allows you to kill bunnies more easily due to the longer effective range and flat trajectory. Alternatively, if you're out camping in some place with things like mountain lions or bears, you probably want the semi-auto because if you do need it, you're probably going to be too rushed to make the first shot count. And, finally, since the law in the US does allow clearly and distinctly for the shooting of people in certain circumstances, the fact that semi-autos are good for shooting people should be a factor in their selection. The single most common stated reason of firearm ownership in the US is self defence, not hunting, and not target shooting.

Come off it, shooting bunnies..

I post on some American guitar forums and you'll have one post where a guy is showing off his new guitar, and right below it somebody showing off their new gun. And they've got assault style weapons all dressed up with tactical rails and scopes etc. Showing off all their spare magazines and posing with the guns.

These guys arent shooting bunnies. They are buying them to live out some kind of army/rambo fantasy.

The scary thing is that guns have become almost fetishised among some Americans. People post comments in these threads about how 'sexy' or badass another guys gun looks. They lust after them in the same way you would a nice sportscar.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 08:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The scary thing is that guns have become almost fetishised among some Americans. People post comments in these threads about how 'sexy' or badass another guys gun looks. They lust after them in the same way you would a nice sportscar.

Teenagers will fetishise anything. There was a craze for swords in Ireland a while ago.

edit (btw "I kill you scum" - what's that about? seems you have violent fantasies of your own)

Manic Moran · 21-07-2012 08:17PM

I post on some American guitar forums and you'll have one post where a guy is showing off his new guitar, and right below it somebody showing off their new gun. And they've got assault style weapons all dressed up with tactical rails and scopes etc. Showing off all their spare magazines and posing with the guns

Allow me to re-quote part of my own post:

And, finally, since the law in the US does allow clearly and distinctly for the shooting of people in certain circumstances, the fact that semi-autos are good for shooting people should be a factor in their selection. The single most common stated reason of firearm ownership in the US is self defence, not hunting, and not target shooting.

Here's my one... I keep it simple, a CCO, FTS magnifier, and torch. Quite a practical setup. Those tac-rails have a purpose, you know.

NTM

Tym · 21-07-2012 08:21PM

They lust after them in the same way you would a nice sportscar.

Who are "they"?

Nodin · 21-07-2012 08:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

...........

The scary thing is that guns have become almost fetishised among some Americans. People post comments in these threads about how 'sexy' or badass another guys gun looks. They lust after them in the same way you would a nice sportscar.

O NOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Truly the world is ending because some people have an interest in something you don't share.

21-07-2012 08:50PM

Nodin wrote: »

O NOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Truly the world is ending because some people have an interest in something you don't share.

What are you, 10? That's no way to carry yourself in an otherwise mature discussion.

CMpunked · 21-07-2012 08:50PM

There's a few facebook pages (such as this one) asking for christian bale dressed in his batman gear to visit the victims. Good idea or bad idea?

Nodin · 21-07-2012 08:54PM

CMpunked wrote: »

There's a few facebook pages (such as this one) asking for christian bale dressed in his batman gear to visit the victims. Good idea or bad idea?

Visit the kids in the gear yeah.

Ron pearlman did somethin similar recently, so its not unprecedented.
http://collider.com/ron-perlman-hellboy-make-a-wish/178037/

Paully D · 21-07-2012 08:58PM

CMpunked wrote: »

There's a few facebook pages (such as this one) asking for christian bale dressed in his batman gear to visit the victims. Good idea or bad idea?

Great idea IMO, would love to see this happen.

Nodin · 21-07-2012 08:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you, 10? That's no way to carry yourself in an otherwise mature discussion.

People collect stamps, snail shells, birds eggs, cars, knives, swords, armour, planes, models (of everything), movie props, posters, records, furniture, jewllery, clothing, shoes, razors, tools, books, porn, racist memorbillia, greek pottery, roman penis totems/jewellery, pre-columbian latin american art, native woodwork (from all over) and christ knows what else. Why should firearms be looked at any differently?

CMpunked · 21-07-2012 09:02PM

Reason why i said good idea or bad idea is that some are saying the idea could backfire:

This is a nice idea but a HORRIBLE gesture. Think about it. If you were an 8 year old kid that was shot and possibly watched as a family member was killed by a man wearing black clothes, a black bulletproof vest, and a black mask, would you really want a man in a black Batman suit visiting your hospital room? Plus it not be fair or appropriate to directly link a Hollywood movie with such a tragedy. If any thing, Christian Bale should visit the kids as himself.

Others are saying that the murderer tried to become somewhat a real life version of the Joker so why give him the satisfaction of bringing out the RL batman?

Personally i'm not sure where i stand on the idea yet.

21-07-2012 09:14PM

MadsL wrote: »

Some posters seem to miss the point about "more guns" as the solution, the concern for many permit holders is that there are an increasing number of places where property owners post "no guns" signs which have force of law. The nutters naturally are smart enough not to go postal at a gun show or police station, but those places that ban guns. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, and other spree killing locations all had gun bans. Some people have asked how the Aurora killer got guns into the building, well he walked past a picture of a gun with a big red strike through it. Others were legally forced to comply with that sign including three ex-military civilians who were injured in the attack.

That's a point I'm always making, if there's a row of shops which will someone try to hold-up, the ones that allow guns or the ones that don't?

Also an important question in my eyes is how many of the gun murders in the US are done using illegally held firearms? Changing the law isn't going to make those guns disappear and even if after 50 years the number of guns had somehow gone down the reasons for those murders would still be present.

21-07-2012 09:15PM

Nodin wrote: »

People collect stamps, snail shells, birds eggs, cars, knives, swords, armour, planes, models (of everything), movie props, posters, records, furniture, jewllery, clothing, shoes, razors, tools, books, porn, racist memorbillia, greek pottery, roman penis totems/jewellery, pre-columbian latin american art, native woodwork (from all over) and christ knows what else. Why should firearms be looked at any differently?

Don't forget airsoft. As "sad" as someone might think it is to collect firearms when they're not easily available people resort to collecting fake ones.

MadsL · 21-07-2012 09:19PM

MadsL wrote: »

Meanwhile Irish police let four armed robbers out bail! Wtf?

http://www.thejournal.ie/long-mile-road-petrol-station-armed-robbery-525792-Jul2012/

All this vitriol about US law-abiding gun owners and yet not one single comment about the fact the Gardai consider it acceptable to let illegally-held firearms offenders out on bail. Interesting.

Nodin · 21-07-2012 09:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't forget airsoft. As "sad" as someone might think it is to collect firearms when they're not easily available people resort to collecting fake ones.

If thats what yer into, sure why not and fuck the begrudgers.

Seriously, people need to show a bit of fucking tolerance. Men collect stuff, always have, and generally have a bit of a gra for weaponry.

Nodin · 21-07-2012 09:23PM

MadsL wrote: »

All this vitriol about US law-abiding gun owners and yet not one single comment about the fact the Gardai consider it acceptable to let illegally-held firearms offenders out on bail. Interesting.

They're probably content now the firearms are in custody.

10 shot dead at Batman showing in Denver

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