The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 03:40PM

awec wrote: »

Er, it's pretty easy. :pac:

If you are in any of Armagh, Down, Antrim, Derry, Fermanagh or Tyrone you are in NI. What's confusing about that? This is like me saying "ah y'know, that County Cork is a bit of a grey area. Where are the boundaries? Why do we have a county cork at all?" :pac:

Not quite. Part of county Louth is within the PSNI patrol area on the A1 and has 60 mph speed limits. If you drive from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6+ times.

awec · 20-07-2012 03:41PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Not quite. Part of county Louth is within the PSNI patrol area on the A1 and has 60 mph speed limits. If you drive from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6+ times.

Louth is not in NI.

If you are in any of the 6 counties I listed you are in NI. If you are not in those 6 counties you are not in NI.

What is confusing about that?

And again, driving from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6 times. So what? What does that prove?

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 03:43PM

awec wrote: »

Louth is not in NI.

If you are in any of the 6 counties I listed you are in NI. If you are not in those 6 counties you are not in NI.

What is confusing about that?

And again, driving from Augher to Sligo you cross the border 6 times. So what? What does that prove?

That the border only exists when its drawn on a map.

awec · 20-07-2012 03:44PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

That the border only exists when its drawn on a map.

Like thousands and thousands of borders all over the world then?

So really what you're saying here is that you don't think it exists because you aren't stopped at a passport control area when driving over it?

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 03:51PM

awec wrote: »

Like thousands and thousands of borders all over the world then?

So really what you're saying here is that you don't think it exists because you aren't stopped at a passport control area when driving over it?

The thread: "The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?"

I remarked that you can cross the border several times and not notice and that the border cant be defined by counties 100% accurately.
I don't see what confuses you.

awec · 20-07-2012 03:55PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The thread: "The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?"

I remarked that you can cross the border several times and not notice and that the border cant be defined by counties 100% accurately.
I don't see what confuses you.

Your confusion confuses me.

The border is defined by counties 100% accurately. If you are in those 6 counties you are in the state of NI. If you're not in them, you're not. It is that simple. Because the PSNI can cross the border a bit in Louth is totally and absolutely irrelevant.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 03:59PM

awec wrote: »

Your confusion confuses me.

The border is defined by counties 100% accurately. If you are in those 6 counties you are in the state of NI. If you're not in them, you're not. It is that simple. Because the PSNI can cross the border a bit in Louth is totally and absolutely irrelevant.

For that purpose the border has slightly different boundaries.
Mobile phone networks don't follow the border on the map either.
You don't need ID to cross the border although technically you should have a UK visa to enter the 6 counties (unenforceable).
There are a few examples where the border is a grey area or where it has no implication as has been mentioned in this thread.

awec · 20-07-2012 04:40PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

For that purpose the border has slightly different boundaries.
Mobile phone networks don't follow the border on the map either.
You don't need ID to cross the border although technically you should have a UK visa to enter the 6 counties (unenforceable).
There are a few examples where the border is a grey area or where it has no implication as has been mentioned in this thread.

Why would you need a UK visa to enter the UK from Ireland? It's the EU.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 08:22PM

awec wrote: »

Why would you need a UK visa to enter the UK from Ireland? It's the EU.

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

slimjimmc · 20-07-2012 09:11PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

For that purpose the border has slightly different boundaries.
Mobile phone networks don't follow the border on the map either.
You don't need ID to cross the border although technically you should have a UK visa to enter the 6 counties (unenforceable).
There are a few examples where the border is a grey area or where it has no implication as has been mentioned in this thread.

Hang on, are you seriously saying that parts of Co. Louth are subject to NI law and policing?

The border follows county boundaries precisely so no part of any county (NI or Irl) can ever crosses the border. Of course roads don't follow the borders and do criss-cross but each section remains 100% the jurisdiction of the relevant state.
There are circumstances where the PSNI and Gardaí can cross the border with permission and under certain conditions but that does not give either force any authority or patrolling rights when on the 'wrong' side.
The political boundary and the policing boundary are one and the same, there is no difference whatsoever.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 09:27PM

slimjimmc wrote: »

Hang on, are you seriously saying that parts of Co. Louth are subject to NI law and policing?

The border follows county boundaries precisely so no part of any county (NI or Irl) can ever crosses the border. Of course roads don't follow the borders and do criss-cross but each section remains 100% the jurisdiction of the relevant state.
There are circumstances where the PSNI and Gardaí can cross the border with permission and under certain conditions but that does not give either force any authority or patrolling rights when on the 'wrong' side.
The political boundary and the policing boundary are one and the same, there is no difference whatsoever.

The speed limit is 60 mph about 100 metres into county louth. A country road off to the right has speed given in km/h.

OMARS_COMING_ · 20-07-2012 09:33PM

Is Donegal in NI?

Mr_Spaceman · 20-07-2012 09:33PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

So it's the UK Govt's fault Asian tourists don't know basic visa requirements?

Okay then.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 09:36PM

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

So it's the UK Govt's fault Asian tourists don't know basic visa requirements?

Okay then.

Who said that? If you are having difficulty you can enlarge the text on your browser or get someone to help you with the big words

Mr_Spaceman · 20-07-2012 09:39PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Who said that? If you are having difficulty you can enlarge the text on your browser or get someone to help you with the big words

That was your implication and you know it.

Incidentally it works both ways. I've been on cross-border buses when Asian folk have been removed at the border by the Guards doing spot checks.

People should know where they can and can't access.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 09:42PM

Mr_Spaceman wrote: »

That was your implication and you know it.

I said that you don't need ID to cross the border but you do need a separate visa, not many people were aware of the visa issue and there are plans to end the separate visas.
I didn't say it was anyone's fault that Asian people weren't aware of the situation.

Mr_Spaceman · 20-07-2012 09:45PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I said that you don't need ID to cross the border but you do need a separate visa, not many people were aware of the visa issue and there are plans to end the separate visas.
I didn't say it was anyone's fault that Asian people weren't aware of the situation.

Fair enough.

Visa issues should be highlighted a bit better.

Feathers · 20-07-2012 09:49PM

awec wrote: »

It clearly is two seperate states. Clear as day in fact. Different goverments, taxes, currencies, flags, etc etc, in what way can that possibly be seen as "not seperate" ? Is it because you can drive over the border and don't have to show your passport or something?

In fairness, he said the boundaries aren't clear which they're not. Never mind tourists, as an Irish man the only reason you know you've crossed the border is when you reach the next road sign (lacking Irish) or speed limit sign (in mph). Not exactly a clear boundary.

awec · 20-07-2012 10:00PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

How will unionists stall things? It's nothing to do with unionists. There is no visa to visit Northern Ireland, it's a UK visa and any changes to visa policy will be made in Westminster and unionists will not care a jot.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 10:02PM

Feathers wrote: »

In fairness, he said the boundaries aren't clear which they're not. Never mind tourists, as an Irish man the only reason you know you've crossed the border is when you reach the next road sign (lacking Irish) or speed limit sign (in mph). Not exactly a clear boundary.

I know of one adventure day type company who started as a quad driving experience place. They had trouble getting insurance because no one knew exactly which side of the border their field was on. The road was an NI road but every other field was county Louth. Its right between Armagh, Louth and Monaghan.

Capt'n Midnight · 20-07-2012 10:26PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

There was a story a while back about Asian tourists being unaware that the Irish visa did not cover trips to Belfast and the North Coast. They plan to make one visa cover the island but unionists will stall things.

Aren't there lots of comonwealth countries that the UK allow in , that we don't ?

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 10:33PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Aren't there lots of comonwealth countries that the UK allow in , that we don't ?

Probably the commonwealth would come into it. IIRC the same report cited people spending a week in England, flying to belfast and renting a car at belfast airport for a week, driving around Ireland before flying back to London to catch a flight home.

The problem with this is that it is illegal to cross any EU border in a rental car. No one would ever know unless you're stopped at a checkpoint and they ask if you own the car so many people are unwittingly breaking the law.

inmyday · 20-07-2012 10:48PM

OMARS_COMING_ wrote: »

Is Donegal in NI?

Stupid or just being a prick!

awec · 20-07-2012 10:51PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Probably the commonwealth would come into it. IIRC the same report cited people spending a week in England, flying to belfast and renting a car at belfast airport for a week, driving around Ireland before flying back to London to catch a flight home.

The problem with this is that it is illegal to cross any EU border in a rental car. No one would ever know unless you're stopped at a checkpoint and they ask if you own the car so many people are unwittingly breaking the law.

The bit in bold is simply not true.

You can hire rental cars in Europe for one-way cross border travel for example.

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 11:01PM

awec wrote: »

The bit in bold is simply not true.

You can hire rental cars in Europe for one-way cross border travel for example.

I looked up this and it seems that there are some ways to arrange it. Maybe its just something that has to be pre-arranged.

mfceiling · 20-07-2012 11:09PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Probably the commonwealth would come into it. IIRC the same report cited people spending a week in England, flying to belfast and renting a car at belfast airport for a week, driving around Ireland before flying back to London to catch a flight home.

The problem with this is that it is illegal to cross any EU border in a rental car. No one would ever know unless you're stopped at a checkpoint and they ask if you own the car so many people are unwittingly breaking the law.

Not true....I rented a car last night for Barcelona next month with the intention of driving to France. Checked the small print and it's fine to do so...

slimjimmc · 20-07-2012 11:11PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The speed limit is 60 mph about 100 metres into county louth. A country road off to the right has speed given in km/h.

I'm fascinated to see where does the A1 encroach into the republic?
Can you show us exactly where the legislative border does not correspond with the international border.
Even google maps/streetview shows the 60mph sign and change in road markings occur right on the border.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

awec wrote: »

The bit in bold is simply not true.

You can hire rental cars in Europe for one-way cross border travel for example.

I looked up this and it seems that there are some ways to arrange it. Maybe its just something that has to be pre-arranged.

It's definitely not illegal the drive a rental across borders but you may be in breach of the rental contract and/or your hire-car insurance if either contracts prohibit cross-border travel.

gurramok · 20-07-2012 11:33PM

slimjimmc wrote: »

I'm fascinated to see where does the A1 encroach into the republic?
Can you show us exactly where the legislative border does not correspond with the international border.
Even google maps/streetview shows the 60mph sign and change in road markings occur right on the border.

There is a slip road of to the left off the M1 which has NI road speed limits immediately but yet the border does not appear on the M1 for another 200m or so. Its weird as if the border was created right along the left side of the M1 kerb all of a sudden!

Next time you drive on the M1 approaching the border, watch out for it

fasttalkerchat · 20-07-2012 11:46PM

gurramok wrote: »

There is a slip road of to the left off the M1 which has NI road speed limits immediately but yet the border does not appear on the M1 for another 200m or so. Its weird as if the border was created right along the left side of the M1 kerb all of a sudden!

Next time you drive on the M1 approaching the border, watch out for it

That's the spot. Also there is another road which runs perpendicularly to the A1 on the other side which is on the other side of the border.

The county Louth border can be seen when you line up the mountains on each side of the road.

gurramok · 20-07-2012 11:52PM

And if memory is correct, there is one of those Garda ramp things(where they can spy on traffic) also on the left side of the M1 at the same spot. Its bloody weird, where they going to speed to chasing traffic? Into NI?..LOL

I think slimjimmc should try travelling the N53 across Louth\South Armagh, on the same road in a short distance you are in the republic, then NI and then the republic again. Makes you wonder what bright spark created that border!

The Border/NI. Why is it there for some things, yet not for others?

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