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Just a thought...

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Comments

  • #332
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    A
    At the end of the day, neither Atheist's or religious can prove they are right so its really a pointless argument. Its a matter of respect IMHO.
    Again, atheism is not a positive belief and does not need evidence as it is the default logical position you hold without evidence to the contrary.

    The religious need to provide evidence otherwise their beliefs are no different to any other ridiculous claims.

    Do you believe that silly beliefs like fairies or psychic powers etc deserve the same respect you think that religion deserves?
    If not, what makes those ridiculous things different to the ridiculous claims of the religious?


  • #333
    whatsup?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭whatsup?


    swampgas wrote: »

    (1) If evidence is not the reason you believe in God, then can I assume that your faith is basically belief based on "gut feel" ? And that what you feel is correct is what matters, rather than what logic might dictate?

    In a sense you are correct. I have a very clear understanding that God is very very real, in the same way you have a very clear understanding that he is not.
    Basic logic will never dictate otherwise as no matter what discoveries the human race unearths the issue of God is beyond our reach. We can never know.
    swampgas wrote: »
    (2) Does it ever concern you that what you believe (based on faith) might be only partly correct, or might in fact be completely wrong? That maybe you should have faith in something slightly different?

    Of course that concerns me. Doubt is a big factor in my faith as it is in everyone's faith. We all have the ability to disregard Christ as we may think he is not needed or that the guidelines he gives us are too complicated so better to ignore his existence rather than attempt to live by his message.
    The only thing that assure me is faith, Catholicism, and the fact that we all search for meaning, like our ancestors did, but the ultimate question of meaning can never be realized. God is the center of our unexplained meaning.
    swampgas wrote: »
    Down through the ages people have believed a billion different bizarre and superstitious concepts, our brains seem to be hard-wired to err that way. Only relatively recently have we started to figure out what makes our brains work the way they do, and we have learned that it is possible to think more critically.

    You are perfectly correct. Humans have always and will always seek to answer the questions that baffle them. Once it was why does the wind blow? why does the ocean roar? why does fire burn? They placed Gods as the answer. Their Gods were shown to be false as the human brain was capable of discovering the answers that they at the time could not.
    Today our questions have changed to, is there life elsewhere? Can the universe be measured? What is beyond our solar system?
    They are equally as baffling as the questions of the ancient world.


    I personally accept that we will continue to grow and learn about our existence. Our unanswered questions of today will be answered someday.
    So therefore the atheist assumes that eventually we will learn so much about ourselves that God will be proven to be untrue, in other words we will reach a point where all our questions will be answered. We will know it all.

    What I accept, and what Christians accept, is that although our brains will advance and explain our mysteries, the ultimate mystery will never and can never be answered as humans are incapable of doing so. I'm referring to the question of why there is something rather than nothing. Every other question the human mind has asked ultimately leads to this great mystery and although we will dismantle our universe and study, examine and learn from it, we will never ever explain why it is there in the first place. That great mystery is therefore, well for me anyway, only understood with God.
    swampgas wrote: »
    A really difficult concept to get across to a big bunch of people with a shared delusion is that they are deluded in the first place.

    We are all deluded by the mystery of life, and we will always continue to be deluded by it.
    swampgas wrote: »
    One reason people believe "makey-uppy" stuff is because lots of other people profess to believe it too. We tend to follow the crowd, ideologically.
    swampgas wrote: »
    The only reason so many people are Catholics in Ireland, is because, well, lots of other Irish people are Catholics. That's it. No other reason.

    I highly disagree. History is a great teacher, every civilization in the past has placed God at the center of what they cant understand. It is what humans are designed to do, seek to answer the unanswerable. You must give the human mind greater credit and admit that placing a God as the be all and end all is a basic human inclination and is not just a habit we have inherited from our parents. We don't just believe because our ancestors believed. The passage of time has answered the old mysteries and so the ancient Gods can and should be disregarded. Our Christian God is placed in the middle of what humans are incapable of understanding regardless of the scientific advantages of the day. It makes him unexplainable but not any less real for those who believe.


  • #334
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    "The passage of time has answered the old mysteries and so the ancient Gods can and should be disregarded. Our Christian God is placed in the middle of what humans are incapable of understanding regardless of the scientific advantages of the day."

    So, in about a thousand or two thousand years we can disregard your god too?

    Excellent news but not sure I can hold out that long.


  • #335
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Our Christian God is placed in the middle of what humans are incapable of understanding regardless of the scientific advantages of the day. It makes him unexplainable but not any less real for those who believe.
    And the Norse put their god in what they thought humans would never be capable of understanding.

    What makes you think that your question is unanswerable? What leads you to think it's even a valid question in the first place? (And answers along the line of "I just believe" are not acceptable)

    And how do you know your answer is the right one? Cause for all the other gaps that were closed, we know we have the right answer because we can objectively show as much.
    How can your answer be an answer if you can't show it is objectively?

    But then if you are going to rehash the "nothing is really objective" nonsense you loose your only reason to reject gods you don't believe in.

    And is there any chance at all you'll at least explain why you are refusing to answer the simple questions I've been repeatedly asking you?


  • #336
    whatsup?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭whatsup?


    King Mob wrote: »
    And the Norse put their god in what they thought humans would never be capable of understanding.

    What makes you think that your question is unanswerable? What leads you to think it's even a valid question in the first place? (And answers along the line of "I just believe" are not acceptable)

    And how do you know your answer is the right one? Cause for all the other gaps that were closed, we know we have the right answer because we can objectively show as much.
    How can your answer be an answer if you can't show it is objectively?

    But then if you are going to rehash the "nothing is really objective" nonsense you loose your only reason to reject gods you don't believe in.

    And is there any chance at all you'll at least explain why you are refusing to answer the simple questions I've been repeatedly asking you?

    So you think we will advance to a stage where we will know why there is a universe in place of no universe? why there is something rather than nothing? Why you and I are here debating instead of not? Why reality invades our understandings yet the very notion of what reality is and why it exists at all is beyond all human comprehension.

    The basic question I was referring to can never and will never be understood because all human attempts to even examine it will only ever lead to more mystery. Humans are incapable of answering the mystery.

    At least admit that.

    It is in that general understanding of the world that I see God, very clearly infact.

    And every question you have asked I have answered, perhaps in a round about way. Just look for your answer based on what I said, interpret it whatever way you like. That's how the mind works anyway.


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  • #337
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    You're not giving humanity very much credit. We've only been thinking sensibly about reality for the last four or five hundred years, and we seem to be doing pretty well as regards working out how it all works. A whole bunch of "unanswerable" mysteries have been figured out. And God wasn't behind any of them so far. You have to admit it's not looking good for him.


  • #338
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whatsup? wrote: »
    So you think we will advance to a stage where we will know why there is a universe in place of no universe? why there is something rather than nothing? Why you and I are here debating instead of not? Why reality invades our understandings yet the very notion of what reality is and why it exists at all is beyond all human comprehension.
    Yes, there's no reason to think that we won't. The ancient Norse had no concept of the physics you need to understand thunder, so to them their "unanswerable question" is just as unanswerable.
    If you were alive back then, would the idea of Thor be any more or less real?
    whatsup? wrote: »
    The basic question I was referring to can never and will never be understood because all human attempts to even examine it will only ever lead to more mystery. Humans are incapable of answering the mystery.

    At least admit that.

    It is in that general understanding of the world that I see God, very clearly infact.
    I'm not going to admit that because you are just declaring it without any support. That's not how logic works.

    Why specifically do you believe that the question is unanswerable? And again "I just believe it" is not an answer.
    whatsup? wrote: »
    And every question you have asked I have answered, perhaps in a round about way. Just look for your answer based on what I said, interpret it whatever way you like. That's how the mind works anyway.
    No they have not. I listed them and asked you to point out specifically where you had addressed them. You ignored that as well.
    Here they are again:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79768114&postcount=322
    Please either answer them directly and succinctly, point out where you have already done so or at least be honest enough to admit that you cannot answer them.

    These questions are central to my point and your answers are important.


  • #339
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Any fool knows these lads are just trying to make a quick buck of gullible people like yourself. I'd bet my left testicle you don't have any sources to back up 99% of the claims made in that picture :D

    Methinks thou dost protest too much.
    You're claiming to be an atheist, right? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    I don't have to prove any of the 'claims', because it's all a fairy tale (including the Christianity part).
    I do, however, believe in Russell's teapot.


  • #340
    whatsup?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭whatsup?


    King Mob wrote: »
    Yes, there's no reason to think that we won't. The ancient Norse had no concept of the physics you need to understand thunder, so to them their "unanswerable question" is just as unanswerable.
    If you were alive back then, would the idea of Thor be any more or less real?


    I'm not going to admit that because you are just declaring it without any support. That's not how logic works.

    Why specifically do you believe that the question is unanswerable? And again "I just believe it" is not an answer.


    No they have not. I listed them and asked you to point out specifically where you had addressed them. You ignored that as well.
    Here they are again:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79768114&postcount=322
    Please either answer them directly and succinctly, point out where you have already done so or at least be honest enough to admit that you cannot answer them.

    These questions are central to my point and your answers are important.

    Firstly, for you to even say that we will ever understand the "why" in this world is amazing. So you assume we will reach a point where the very essence of what it is to be human (to ask questions) will be accomplished and we will know everything about everything that there is to know about.

    Just think about it for a minute...this is a basic fundamental issue that even the most atheist of people must surly admit! we will ALWAYS search for meaning in our world. Even if we discover a whole lot more than we do now we can always ask, but why?

    Imagine a world where we knew everything. No need for science or testing theories or basic enquirey..it is all accomplished. Then maybe you will see how pointless such an argument is. And i'm not speaking from a religious point of view when I say we will never answer life's mystery..all humans must admit we will always have questions.

    This is a human question..we ask because we are human..not because we want to show there is a God or not.

    Now you say I didn't answer your questions. I think these are the questions you were referring to..

    Why you think people still currently believe things that are false?


    I assume you're referring to why the ancient societies believed in Gods that we have proven to be false.
    They like us asked questions they couldn't answer so they placed a "God" at the heart of their philosophical weakness. The gods were real to them, they worshiped them, talked to them, prayed to them and adored them. These peoples finally could answer their basic questions. Questions such as why the wind blows....why the earth moves..etc..etc.
    That was there main overwhelming issues and God helped them understand.
    The Gods were real to them but not real to us, their almighty s have been shown to be false but the idea of God will never cease to exist.

    We now have developed and our questions have expanded:
    Why does the weather change?
    Why does day and night occur?
    Why does seasons occur?
    How do they follow a cyclical pattern?
    These questions emerge over the centuries and answers are attained and in the process the various Gods are abandoned

    Skip forward hundreds of years:
    How do humans effect weather? (climate change)
    What does the the solar system teach us about our planets charecteristisc?
    What about other planets?
    Lets discover them, Draw a map of our solar system, place it in a universe of which we know nothing about.
    Whats beyond our universe? etc etc etc


    What i'm trying to say is that the endless amounts of questions go on and on and God still plays a part until he can be proven to be untrue, but what makes the christian God overwhelmingly different from any pagan belief is that the ultimate question he is placed at will never and can never be answered.

    The very basic question we will arrive at at the end of human discovery is why is there something in the first place? What started it all? Why is there something in place of nothing?
    God will always occupy that spot and no amount of human discovery will remove him.


    You did not answer the follow up about how you know that the same does not apply to you.


    The exact same does apply to me. The ultimate question of Life is only understood by God.
    Similarly the basic questions held by ancient people were only understood by their Gods, the only difference being that their questions were always going to be answered and they all lead to the ultimate question, which is the meaning of life, which can never be realized and at which the Christian God is placed at the center.

    So if you can show me why there is something in place of nothing, if you can answer the mystery of life, I will admit there is no God, just like the ancient peoples had to admit that their Gods were false...but until then, I'll continue to pray.

    Overall we are not much different to the ancient peoples but our ultimate question, unlike theirs, will never be answered because we are humanly incapable. But if you can supply an answer as to why there is a universe in place of nothing, I will gladly join you in the atheist corner, but until then, God is real.


    Also sorry for not replying sooner I am out and about and can't reply right away..


  • #341
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Methinks thou dost protest too much.
    You're claiming to be an atheist, right? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    I don't have to prove any of the 'claims', because it's all a fairy tale (including the Christianity part).
    I do, however, believe in Russell's teapot.

    Russell's Teapot spoke to me one night.

    I remember it well. It said: "Stick on the kettle, my son".

    That was exactly what I wanted to hear. I was thirsty at the time and I love an oul cup of tea.


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  • #342
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Firstly, for you to even say that we will ever understand the "why" in this world is amazing. So you assume we will reach a point where the very essence of what it is to be human (to ask questions) will be accomplished and we will know everything about everything that there is to know about.
    Those two things aren't necessarily the same thing, so that is not my stance, making your points irrelevant.
    The answers to the questions: "why is there something in the first place?" "What started it all?" would not answer all questions, nor would they necessarily be the last questions to be answered.
    And there are already a few physics models that might offer answers to these questions.

    And yet again you avoid a very direct very simple question: how do you specifically know it is unanswerable?


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Now you say I didn't answer your questions. I think these are the questions you were referring to..


    This is like pulling teeth :rolleyes:

    I directly linked you to the list of questions I asked you, you only addressed two, then completely misunderstood the questions you did try to answer.
    whatsup? wrote: »
    Why you think people still currently believe things that are false?


    I assume you're referring to why the ancient societies believed in Gods that we have proven to be false.
    .
    No, I was not referring to ancient societies. I very clearly and specifically said: still and currently. I have no idea how you could have missed this considering you quoted the question.

    People today still believe in ancient gods, even though the question they supposedly answered is long answered. Also people believe in stuff that don't even answer any questions, and have been totally explained by science, such as psychics.

    So now it is very very clear what I am refering to, please answer the question I actually asked. The rest of your post is waffle about I point I was not making.


  • #343
    whatsup?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭whatsup?


    King Mob wrote: »
    Those two things aren't necessarily the same thing, so that is not my stance, making your points irrelevant.
    The answers to the questions: "why is there something in the first place?" "What started it all?" would not answer all questions, nor would they necessarily be the last questions to be answered.
    And there are already a few physics models that might offer answers to these questions.

    And yet again you avoid a very direct very simple question: how do you specifically know it is unanswerable?






    This is like pulling teeth :rolleyes:

    I directly linked you to the list of questions I asked you, you only addressed two, then completely misunderstood the questions you did try to answer.

    No, I was not referring to ancient societies. I very clearly and specifically said: still and currently. I have no idea how you could have missed this considering you quoted the question.

    People today still believe in ancient gods, even though the question they supposedly answered is long answered. Also people believe in stuff that don't even answer any questions, and have been totally explained by science, such as psychics.

    So now it is very very clear what I am refering to, please answer the question I actually asked. The rest of your post is waffle about I point I was not making.

    Patience is a virtue.....

    Debate is impossible with you.
    Once you assume my posts are "waffle" then you automatically assume you are correct in what you say, rendering my argument more amusement than discussion.
    The number one rule in debate is realizing the other view is acceptable to them, maybe not to you, but to them it is, and not ignoring it or calling it sh1t.
    I repeat debate with you is impossible.

    Why do people believe in fairies so? is that your question?
    How the hell do I know why people believe in them, how do I know how anyone believes in anything..you don't know, no one knows. Its the human mind you are trying to understand here and no amount of logic will sufficiently explain it to suit you're seemingly very high standards of reasoned evidence.
    We cannot understand the human being at work....no'r will we ever.

    The link you gave me DID have just two questions from what I could gather and I did answer them


    Read over my posts if you REALLY want to understand me.

    Again, you can NOT POSSIBLY say that we will understand why there is something in place of nothing...ever.

    Its common sense rather than philosophical debate.

    Read what I already said, I think I've laid my beliefs down..and stop bothering me with requests to expand when I am sure that I've explained it all before.

    Re- read my posts...they are my views...you don't agree with them, but doesn't matter to me.


  • #344
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Patience is a virtue.....
    Debate is impossible with you.
    Once you assume my posts are "waffle" then you automatically assume you are correct in what you say, rendering my argument more amusement than discussion.
    Your last post referred to and was specific to ancient peoples without modern knowledge.
    The question it was addressing specifically and clearly was not referring to those people.
    whatsup? wrote: »
    Why do people believe in fairies so? is that your question?
    How the hell do I know why people believe in them, how do I know how anyone believes in anything..you don't know, no one knows. Its the human mind you are trying to understand here and no amount of logic will sufficiently explain it to suit you're seemingly very high standards of reasoned evidence.
    Great, so is it possible for people to honestly and truly believe in something that isn't true? Yes or no?
    whatsup? wrote: »
    The link you gave me DID have just two questions from what I could gather and I did answer them
    1) You have not pointed to anything that distinguishes your god of the gaps from other gods of the gaps beyond "I just believe it". Insisting you believe something is true without evidence is not an argument.

    2) You have not answered the question about why you think people still currently believe things that are false.

    3) You did not answer the follow up about how you know that the same does not apply to you.

    whatsup? wrote: »
    Again, you can NOT POSSIBLY say that we will understand why there is something in place of nothing...ever.

    Its common sense rather than philosophical debate.
    If it is common sense then it would be easy to show specifically how you know it is true.
    IF you do not provide these reasons you are simply stating it's true because you believe it, which is not an argument and something you've accused me of doing.


  • #345
    whatsup?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭whatsup?


    King Mob wrote: »

    Great, so is it possible for people to honestly and truly believe in something that isn't true? Yes or no?

    Yes, if they cant be proven to be untrue then they are perfectly real.
    Our Lord Jesus can never be proven to be untrue. Therefore he is real. he can be experienced, but not proved.

    King Mob wrote: »
    If it is common sense then it would be easy to show specifically how you know it is true.
    IF you do not provide these reasons you are simply stating it's true because you believe it, which is not an argument and something you've accused me of doing.

    I believe based on no proof. God cannot be proven with evidence. Logic defies God. God defies logic. Logic understands his creation but cannot understand the creator.
    Faith proves him, not evidence. You don't have it so how can you see God.

    Evidence and logic will get you so far but the basic question of life will never be understood by logic. God is this mystery.


    Do not ask for evidence again. Evidence can prove so much but what proves evidence? what proves reality? where is there evidence to show anything exists?

    I heard a quote once.." are we men dreaming to be butterflys or butterflys dreaming to be men"

    God defies logic. End of.


    again i couldn't reply right away, apologies..


  • #346
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Russell's Teapot spoke to me one night.

    I remember it well. It said: "Stick on the kettle, my son".

    That was exactly what I wanted to hear. I was thirsty at the time and I love an oul cup of tea.

    Well, there's no way I can disprove that, so it must have happened.


  • #347
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Yes, if they cant be proven to be untrue then they are perfectly real.Our Lord Jesus can never be proven to be untrue. Therefore he is real. he can be experienced, but not proved.
    So then Thor and psychics and fairies all exist even though you know they don't?
    None of these have been proven to be untrue, Thor can't ever be disproven, and people genuinely believe they exist.
    So your logic requires that they do. Yet you don't believe them.
    Your logic is therefore clearly flawed.

    And since you agree that it is possible for people to genuinely believe in something that isn't true, is it then also possible that those same people can then justify this belief with various arguments with varying degrees of logic and reasoning? Yes or no?
    whatsup? wrote: »
    I believe based on no proof. God cannot be proven with evidence. Logic defies God. God defies logic. Logic understands his creation but cannot understand the creator.
    Faith proves him, not evidence. You don't have it so how can you see God.

    Evidence and logic will get you so far but the basic question of life will never be understood by logic. God is this mystery.

    Do not ask for evidence again. Evidence can prove so much but what proves evidence? what proves reality? where is there evidence to show anything exists?
    Again you have not answered the question I asked.
    I did not ask you for evidence or proof of anything, and I did not refer to god in that section. I asked you how do you know that the question is unanswerable.
    You are just declaring that it is because you believe it to be. You do not offer anything to support this other than you just believe it. This is not an argument.

    You accused me of doing exactly this as if it was a wrong thing to do in a debate. How come you are allowed to do it?
    whatsup? wrote: »
    God defies logic. End of.
    Yes, just like Thor defies logic as do ghosts and fairies and completely random nonsense plucked from my imagination.
    Simply declaring that does not make it an excuse for the fact you can't reconcile your beliefs with reality or logic.


  • #348
    whatsup?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭whatsup?


    King Mob wrote: »
    So then Thor and psychics and fairies all exist even though you know they don't?
    None of these have been proven to be untrue, Thor can't ever be disproven, and people genuinely believe they exist.
    So your logic requires that they do. Yet you don't believe them.
    Your logic is therefore clearly flawed.

    And since you agree that it is possible for people to genuinely believe in something that isn't true, is it then also possible that those same people can then justify this belief with various arguments with varying degrees of logic and reasoning? Yes or no?


    Again you have not answered the question I asked.
    I did not ask you for evidence or proof of anything, and I did not refer to god in that section. I asked you how do you know that the question is unanswerable.
    You are just declaring that it is because you believe it to be. You do not offer anything to support this other than you just believe it. This is not an argument.

    You accused me of doing exactly this as if it was a wrong thing to do in a debate. How come you are allowed to do it?

    Yes, just like Thor defies logic as do ghosts and fairies and completely random nonsense plucked from my imagination.
    Simply declaring that does not make it an excuse for the fact you can't reconcile your beliefs with reality or logic.

    It is unanswerable because it is just that. unanswerable. I know it's unanswerable because it is.

    God is a mystery, life is a mystery. No more i can say.

    I seriously believe my other posts will explain where i'm coming from.

    People believe what they want to believe but God is the ultimate mystery as he seeks to explain the ultimate question each human has.

    That question, why there is something in place of nothing, it will never be realized.

    Never.

    Good night.:)


  • #349
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    whatsup? wrote: »
    It is unanswerable because it is just that. unanswerable. I know it's unanswerable because it is.
    That is not an argument. And you accused me of using a similar tactic.
    Debate is impossible with you.
    Once you assume my posts are "waffle" then you automatically assume you are correct in what you say, rendering my argument more amusement than discussion.
    Why are you allowed to automatically assume you are correct?
    How come you cannot provide any reasons for your conclusion other than this assumption?

    What if just declared that the question was answerable because I know it is answerable? Is this a good reason to accept it is? If not how come your insistence is more valid?

    Or is it just a case of you can't actually explain how you know it is true? Perhaps because you never thought about it beyond your completely random assertion?

    Your own logic is self contradictory and flawed and you are unable to explain your way out of the loop.
    Your arguments mean you have to believe in thor and fairies and other nonsensical things just as much as your god. Yet you ignore it because you reject the reasons you use to justify your god when they are applied to other things because you know they are flawed.

    You realise that people can have just as much faith in absolute crap as you do in your god, and you don't want to admit the possibility that you are just the same, even though you know such a possibility is both inescapable and likely

    And of course when you run into a point you can't actually address you ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist even though you know that this is dishonest.

    You really should be wondering and asking yourself why you have to engage in such dishonesty to maintain your point. But you won't because you need to abandon honesty to believe in a religion, you just rebrand that as faith or "god defies logic."


  • #350
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Yes, if they cant be proven to be untrue then they are perfectly real.
    Our Lord Jesus can never be proven to be untrue. Therefore he is real. he can be experienced, but not proved.

    Did you know that virtually ever major civilization has had a version of Vampire, all following the exact same basic features, the only things that really change are the position of the teeth and what animal they can become.

    Following your logic, because the Vampires can not be disproven, they are real. And so is Allah, Odin, Kali, Gaia, Horus and everything more.

    What you are basically saying is "I believe this, therefore it's true.", which I'm sorry, but that is just complete nonsense.


  • #351
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    A minor quibble, I am trying to be as respectful as possible to the OP but his or her insistence in using the phrase "Our Lord" and so on... whilst I believe that there was indeed an historical charismatic man, Jesus ... he is not, I repeat, not my lord.

    Could the OP perhaps keep this in mind, that Jesus (nice bloke and all that) does not hold dominion over us and never shall. Thanks :)


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  • #352
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Patience is a virtue.....
    You're exhausting most of our patience.
    whatsup? wrote: »
    Debate is impossible with you.
    Other way around.

    whatsup? wrote: »
    Why do people believe in fairies so? is that your question?
    How the hell do I know why people believe in them, how do I know how anyone believes in anything

    You are the 'believer' here. We don't believe in the supernatural, so you're the 'expert'. Enlighten us heathens.
    whatsup? wrote: »
    Read over my posts if you REALLY want to understand me.

    Not very likely.

    whatsup? wrote: »
    Again, you can NOT POSSIBLY say that we will understand why there is something in place of nothing...ever.

    Therefore god? Dogma?
    whatsup? wrote: »
    Read what I already said, I think I've laid my beliefs down..and stop bothering me with requests to expand when I am sure that I've explained it all before.

    Obviously you haven't.

    whatsup? wrote: »
    Re- read my posts...they are my views...you don't agree with them, but doesn't matter to me.

    Your post count in this thread begs to differ.


  • #353
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    whatsup? wrote: »
    Again, you can NOT POSSIBLY say that we will understand why there is something in place of nothing...ever.
    Quantum physics, specifically quantum fluctuations, virtual particles and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, allow us a pretty solid theory to say why right now. There are still questions as to why that small amount of matter that was left over from the big bang and makes up the entirety of the universe didn't annihilate itself in an antimatter explosion along with everything else, and there are some interesting hypothesises into that. But the progress we are making towards addressing these questions is staggering to say the least.

    It seems both incredibly naive and arrogant to assume that we can never understand or answer these questions. Naive because it ignores the great strides that physics, and especially quantum physics, has made into understanding the universe, and arrogant because to make a statement that something is forever impossible one must assume their understanding is perfect.


  • #354
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Ha!

    Kivaro, I seriously face-palmed when I saw your lovely picture! You see I saw the Zeitgeist movies not too long ago and unlike yourself, I did a bit of research into the claims made. I don’t just assume things are true .......
    Horus

    Born of a virgin

    Horus's parents were married. He was conceived beside a river.

    Star in the east

    There is no star in any of the stories of Horus to announce his birth.

    Walked on water

    No mention / pictures of Horus walking on water.

    Healed the sick / Restored sight

    Any religious figure would do that so saying Christianity is a plagiarism because of this is like saying a Ferrari is a copy of a Porsche because they both drive.

    Crucified / Dead for 3 days / Resurrected

    No stories of any of this happening to Horus.

    Mithra

    Born of a virgin

    There is no mention of a virgin birth in Mithra. A fully-mature Mithra emerged from a rock.

    Born on December 25

    Many religious festivals were consolidated into one holiday to coincide with the winter solstice. Christmas is only celebrated on December 25th due to this tradition. There is no mention anywhere in the bible that Jesus was born on 25th of December.

    Had 12 disciples

    Mithra is often depicted next to the twelve zodiac signs but there is no mention of there being twelve disciples. This is just Joseph / Massey playing on peoples gullibility.

    Dead for 3 days / Resurrected

    Mithras was taken to the afterlife on a chariot whilst still alive. No mention of a death hence no resurrection.

    Krishna

    Born of a virgin

    A virgin birth is never attributed to Krishna and his parents bore seven previous children.

    Son of carpenter

    Nowhere in the Hindu texts does it say Krishna's father was a carpenter. I beleive he was some sort of judge / law person. His foster-father was a cow-herder.

    Resurrected

    Thats true but there are many differences between the Christian version and the Hindu version.

    Dionysus

    Born of a virgin

    There are two birth accounts concerning Dionysus (neither implies a virgin birth).

    Born on December 25

    There is no record of this date being significant for Dionysus.

    Traveling teacher

    Yep that one is accurate.

    Turned water into wine

    Nope. Turned things to gold. Filled empty vessels up with wine but never actually turned water to wine.

    Called "Holy Child"

    I'm sure every holy child would have been called that. :rolleyes:

    Sources:

    http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?id=124&option=com_content&task=view


    http://stupidevilbastard.com/2005/01/ending_the_myth_of_horus/

    http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

    And feel free to refer to the religious texts in question also.
    Good post which deserves a response. I'll just use wiki as I'm too lazy to search more widely :)
    Dionysus
    Conceived when a god came down to earth and impregnated a mortal woman. This is as much "a virgin birth" as what happened in the Jesus story. It was Midas who turned stuff to gold. Dionysus was the god credited with bringing wine-making tech to mortals.

    Horus
    Another unconventional birth. His father was the god Osiris and was killed by another god. The father was resurrected into some kind of zombie god, and this holy spirit impregnated Horus' mother.

    Cult of Mithras


    No virgins involved; born of a rock.This cult was an early rival to Christianity among the Romans. People met in temples and had certain secret rituals. As it was based on a much earlier Persian religion, we assume any similarities with Christian rituals were copied by the Christians and not the other way round.
    The Christian apologist Justin Martyr wrote:
    Wherefore also the evil demons in mimicry have handed down that the same thing should be done in the Mysteries of Mithras. For that bread and a cup of water are in these mysteries set before the initiate with certain speeches you either know or can learn.
    The Christian apologist Tertullian wrote that as a prelude to the Mithraic initiation ceremony, the initiate was given a ritual bath and at the end of the ceremony, received a mark on the forehead. Tertullian described these rites as a diabolical counterfeit of the baptism and chrismation of Christians.
    Marvin Meyer argues that "early Christianity ... in general, resembles Mithraism in a number of respects – enough to make Christian apologists scramble to invent creative theological explanations to account for the similarities."

    In a way you are correct, none of the other gods have exactly the same properties as Jesus. It's not as if they are all versions of one true god.
    Basically, no two religions are exactly the same, but the point remains that none of the ideas in Christianity are new; they are the same old concepts rehashed for a new age (well new-ish if we are talking about a cult synonymous with the rise of Jewish nationalism within the Roman Empire)
    There are a few more gods mentioned but I get tired of researching fiction easily :)
    The whole Christmas thing is very obviously connected with the death and rebirth of the Sun (god) at the winter solstice. Surviving the winter has always been of the utmost importance to people in the northern hemisphere, and therefore the first thing for a cult to seize upon as something they might have some influence or control over. As Christianity spread further north, it incorporated this aspect from local pagan religions and added it to the Persian and Egyptian root concepts, hence there is not much mention of Dec 25th in the early scriptures.


  • #355
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Is it wrong that I don't really care why we are here, or why the earth is here or why the universe exists rather than doesn't? Am I interested? Yes. Would I like to know? Yes. Do I really care if I never know? No, I don't.

    I love the fact that we are trying to find out. I love the fact that we (we as in humans) built the LHC. I love that we (we as in humans not including creationists) never stop asking the questions, but I don't care if I never get the answer.

    The fact that I don't know why rather than why not has absolutely no impact on my life. I love my life, it has the purpose I assign to it and that is enough for me.

    Is that wrong?

    MrP


  • #356
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Good post recedite. Do you have a source for that info, I'd like to have a look myself. Cheers.


  • #357
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Methinks thou dost protest too much.
    You're claiming to be an atheist, right? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    If I defend a Muslim's beliefs does that mean I'm a Muslim? If theres a black guy in the street getting racially abused and I defend him, does that mean I'm black? If there's a kid in a wheelchair getting slagged be bully's and I defend that kid, does that mean I'm also in a wheelchair? If theres a gay guy getting slagged for being gay and I defend him, will you assume I must be gay too?
    Kivaro wrote: »
    I don't have to prove any of the 'claims', because it's all a fairy tale (including the Christianity part).
    I do, however, believe in Russell's teapot.

    I never said it wasn't a fairytale, I was merely point out that your claims of plagiarism are very wrong.


  • #358
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    If I defend a Muslim's beliefs does that mean I'm a Muslim? If theres a black guy in the street getting racially abused and I defend him, does that mean I'm black? If there's a kid in a wheelchair getting slagged be bully's and I defend that kid, does that mean I'm also in a wheelchair? If theres a gay guy getting slagged for being gay and I defend him, will you assume I must be gay too?

    If you were defending a slave owner, I'd hazard a guess that you too owned slaves. If you defended a paedophile I'd have my suspicions about you.

    Being a muslim is a choice*. The rest are traits that the person is born with or has no way of changing.

    I suppose you could defend a muslim's right to hold those beliefs. Why you would defend the beliefs yourself, if you thought they were silly, I don't understand.

    There's no way I would defend belief in the supernatural, especially when it is used to mentally enslave others. (Religion and psychos psychics)
    "Now you asked me and it's a joke question, do I think I'm going to paradise, of course not. I wouldn't go if I was asked. I don't want to live in some ****ing celestial North Korea for one thing where all I get to do is praise the dear leader from dawn til dusk. I don't want this, it would be hell for me." -- Christopher Hitchens debate with Rabbi Kushner, Rev Gomes.


    *Except for women and children.


  • #359
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Why you would defend the beliefs yourself, if you thought they were silly, I don't understand.

    Just because I'm atheist doesn't mean I think peoples beliefs are silly. Its that disgusting attitude that gets me mad :mad:


  • #360
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I never said it wasn't a fairytale, I was merely point out that your claims of plagiarism are very wrong.

    Firstly, it is not correct to call it plagiarism, more syncretism and it is a largely uncontroversial idea in mythology.

    Secondly, like others who have objected to the idea that a significant portion of christian myth was borrowed from earlier cultures you seem to have assumed that this was done as a deliberate act of copying, which isn't necessarily true.

    Two examples of Jesus the cosmic cover artist to illustrate my point.

    The first is the story of Jesus raising the daughter of Jairus which is told in Mark 5:21-43 and again in Matthew 9:18-26 and Luke 8:40-56. The story (as told in Mark) goes like this:

    "When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” So Jesus went with him. A large crowd followed and pressed around him. And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?” “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”
    But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.”
    While Jesus was still speaking, some people came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” they said. “Why bother the teacher anymore?” Overhearing what they said, Jesus told him, “Don’t be afraid; just believe.” He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” But they laughed at him. After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat."

    I have highlighted the parts which will become important in a minute. Now let's look at this passage from 2 Kings 4:25-35:

    "So she set out and came to the man of God at Mount Carmel. When he saw her in the distance, the man of God said to his servant Gehazi, “Look! There’s the Shunammite! Run to meet her and ask her, ‘Are you all right? Is your husband all right? Is your child all right?’”
    “Everything is all right,” she said. When she reached the man of God at the mountain, she took hold of his feet. Gehazi came over to push her away, but the man of God said, “Leave her alone! She is in bitter distress, but the Lord has hidden it from me and has not told me why.” “Did I ask you for a son, my lord?” she said. “Didn’t I tell you, ‘Don’t raise my hopes’?”
    Elisha said to Gehazi, “Tuck your cloak into your belt, take my staff in your hand and run. Don’t greet anyone you meet, and if anyone greets you, do not answer. Lay my staff on the boy’s face.” But the child’s mother said, “As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you.” So he got up and followed her. Gehazi went on ahead and laid the staff on the boy’s face, but there was no sound or response. So Gehazi went back to meet Elisha and told him, “The boy has not awakened.” When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the Lord. Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out on him, the boy’s body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out on him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes."

    Both stories, Jesus and Elisha share curiously similar elements, the parent falling at the prophet's feet, continuing on even after a messenger has told them that the child is dead, demanding privacy before healing the child and taking the child by the hand. Furthermore there are linguistic devices which indicate that the author of Mark's gospel was deliberately borrowing from the story of Elisha. The father in the first story is Jairus whose name comes from the Hebrew yair meaning awaken. Later in the story Jesus commands the young girl to awaken or egeire in Greek. In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament story Elisha is told that the boy had not yet awakened or egerthe (past tense of egeire). Mark seems to be using a linguistic tip of the hat to the story of Elisha in his narrative.


    The second example is that of Lazarus in John 11:1-43. The story is rather long to present in its entirety so I will direct anyone interested to the link above. However, the relevant features of the story are:

    • A man names Lazarus dies and is mourned by his two sisters Mary and Martha.
    • He is buried in a tomb and remains there for four days before being resurrected.
    • The sisters send word to Jesus that Lazarus has died.
    • Jesus goes to the tomb and raises Lazarus by calling out in a loud voice "Come forth"
    Now in Egyptian mythology we have the story of Osiris. Osiris dies (at the hands of his brother Set). Now again we see similarities with the previous narrative:


    • Osiris dies and is mourned by his sisters Isis and Nephthys.
    • He is buried in the necropolis known as the House of Anu and remains there for four days.
    • The sisters send word to Horus that Osiris has died.
    • Horus goes to the tomb and calls out in a loud voice "Come forth"


    In both of these stories the authors use linguistic and narrative similarities to relate the story they are telling to one which, presumably, the reader will already be familiar with. In the stories above, the purpose for doing so is to show the power of Jesus by comparing him to the prophets of old and the older myths of the region. It isn't necessarily deliberate plagiarism in the sense we understand it today, more like when The Simpsons employ cultural references to amplify the humour of a scene. There's nothing sinister or underhand to these borrowings but they do have a significant detrimental impact on any claim that these events actually happened.


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  • #361
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Just because I'm atheist doesn't mean I think peoples beliefs are silly. Its that disgusting attitude that gets me mad :mad:

    I don't follow you Kidchameleon , surely you think some peoples beliefs are silly and some are even dangerous . Why is that disgusting ? Why are you giving a pass to religious beliefs ? Would you do the same for the KKK or the NSDAP or The Psychics Of Ireland ?

    Why would you defend beliefs you don't believe in ? Particularly religious beliefs as they are well able to defend themselves and when in positions of power have no problem abusing it to suppress any disenting belief.


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