Just a thought...

whatsup?

This is an atheist forum but why on earth do ye guys spend the vast majority of ye're time talking about the Catholic Church and poking fun at it? Why have ye such an interest in something ye claim to be nothing more than fairy-tale? surly the concept of atheism has enough interesting debate to offer other than regular church bashing? I respect ye're beliefs of course, but this forum makes atheism look like a church hater's group rather than a viable alternative to organised religion.

FouxDaFaFa

Atheism isn't an alternative to organised religion in the way that you mean, it's just a lack of belief in God. I think what you're talking about is more "spirituality".

We spend a lot of time talking about the Catholic church because it's the majority religion in Ireland, wields a lot of power and has an effect on our lives even though we're atheists. (Limited schooling options, etc).

Pushtrak

Huh, yeah, damn us and only talking about Catholics...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055898112

whatsup?

Pushtrak wrote: »

Huh, yeah, damn us and only talking about Catholics...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055898112

the majority of topics here link in with the CC, i'm not say other stuff isn't talked about!

I don't think the Catholic Church really effects day to day life that much either...it does with education but in general it has become what it should be, a church, rather than dictatorship like it was years ago here. Ireland has become more like other European countries whereby religion is something engaged upon by those who want it rather than being forced upon everyone.

Improbable

whatsup? wrote: »

the majority of topics here link in with the CC, i'm not say other stuff isn't talked about!

I don't think the Catholic Church really effects day to day life that much either...it does with education but in general it has become what it should be, a church, rather than dictatorship like it was years ago here. Ireland has become more like other European countries whereby religion is something engaged upon by those who want it rather than being forced upon everyone.

How about abortion? How about same-sex marriage?

Rev Hellfire

whatsup? wrote: »

why on earth do ye guys spend the vast majority of ye're time talking about the Catholic Church and poking fun at it?

If their mammy's had made them go to Quaker meetings they'd be railing at those instead.

Dades

whatsup? wrote: »

the majority of topics here link in with the CC, i'm not say other stuff isn't talked about!

I don't think the Catholic Church really effects day to day life that much either...it does with education

Well education is a big one. I've two kids going to school in the next few years and I don't want them taught someone else's religion in a school I pay for. I really don't really care too much about what else the church gets up to.

Also, the RC is not a nice organisation. As "moral guardians" they leave a lot to be desired and there's a lot of pent up dislike. People like to rant and this is the place if you have a beef with the church. Yeah, we talk about lots of other stuff too but the fact that most of us are ex-Catholics and every day seems to bring a new story of the churches antics makes it a hard topic to avoid.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If their mammy's had made them go to Quaker meetings they'd be railing at those instead.

A disappointing simplification, tbh.

Kidchameleon

whatsup? wrote: »

This is an atheist forum but why on earth do ye guys spend the vast majority of ye're time talking about the Catholic Church and poking fun at it? Why have ye such an interest in something ye claim to be nothing more than fairy-tale? surly the concept of atheism has enough interesting debate to offer other than regular church bashing? I respect ye're beliefs of course, but this forum makes atheism look like a church hater's group rather than a viable alternative to organised religion.

OP its because most of the people in here are not actually atheists, they are "militant atheists". Two very different belief systems...

im invisible

Shur what else would an atheist club talk about, only religion? If they want to talk about something else, anything else, there is probably an other forum on boards for it

another question would be how active the active posters here are elsewhere on boards

Waking-Dreams

Just because we’re atheists doesn’t mean we now have no opinion on religious organisations. There’s much to be said for spending time in the company of like-minded people (and not all atheists are alike by the way) who perhaps have had similar experiences. Sharing stories of what it was like telling their families they no longer believe, discussing the role of religion in public affairs and, yes, posting some rather funny cartoons are just some of the many reasons why people contribute here.

Of course, many will see it all as just a “hater’s group” or “church bashing” but venting is a natural part of expressing one’s opinion, especially when it comes to one’s memories of their own childhood indoctrination or being told they were going to hell, etc. And it’s not like you’re going to find topics here calling on atheists to set fire to catholic churches.

iguana

whatsup? wrote: »

I don't think the Catholic Church really effects day to day life that much either...it does with education but in general it has become what it should be, a church, rather than dictatorship like it was years ago here. Ireland has become more like other European countries whereby religion is something engaged upon by those who want it rather than being forced upon everyone.

You think that? But you aren't free to marry the person of your choosing and share many of the rights my husband and I share. You won't be free to adopt as a couple or to have the same rights as a parent that I have.

As a woman I'm not free to have the same control over my body that women in every other Western country has. 20 years ago we had a referendum where the majority voted to prioritise the health, including the mental health of, of the mother over the foetus but that has still not been legislated for. Several years ago the European Courts ordered our government to get on with that legislation but they ignored it as has our subsequent government.

As a pregnant woman I don't get offered a nuchal fold test or a cvs as a normal part of my maternity care. If a different abnormality had shown at my 20 week scan, my hospital (along with all other state hospitals) would have been forced to wash their hands of me if I wanted to know about all options. I would have needed to seek medical help from a charity and then travel to a different country for treatment. Because of this state of affairs I, along with all other women at a similar stage of pregnancy this year, got to spend a month unable to avoid constant exposure to the worst that can happen in pregnancy because the women who that worst did happen to were forced to mount a huge national campaign for proper treatment. That's a pretty small one in the grand scheme of things but it doesn't feel like it when you are crying yourself to sleep the night before a scan because you know that if anything goes wrong the hell you are going to be faced with will be made unaccountably worse by the hurdles you'll have to jump even just to get proper medical counsel, never mind treatment.

If you are a woman with fertility problems so severe that you choose a gestational surrogate don't expect there to be a process by which you will be recognised as the biological mother of your child as most other countries now have. You won't be. Or if a couple is married but for whatever reason feel that they want to allow their child to be adopted, well it's quite literally only over their dead bodies that that can happen, as 'legitimate' children can not be adopted. For some reason no state hospital in this country allows parents, at their own expense, to harvest their newborn's stem cells, which is a common practice in much of the developed world. Supposedly because it's of no real benefit despite so much evidence to the contrary and despite the fact that it would cost the HSE nothing, so what do they care if it's of no benefit?

Then as a parent you are faced with the very real dilemma of whether or not to baptise because if you don't baptise you are playing a risky game with getting your child into a school. Have you the first clue about what it feels like to have a new person rely on you entirely and have to decide between that person's right to religious freedom or right to an education? And then if you get it into a school but if it's a religious school or a VEC you know that your child will be subjected to religious segregation on a daily basis?

Maybe when you are an adult teenager or in your early 20s the Church doesn't seem to exert much influence. You can live as you like, have all the casual sex you and any other willing partners want to have. You can dress as you want and nobody makes you go to Mass. So it can seem as if the Church doesn't exert much influence (unless of course you are a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, then you'll have a very sharp reminder).

But as you get older and find that if you want to marry at the weekend, as most people do, you can't do that unless it's a religious ceremony. As you find that your maternity care is still dictated by Church morals. As you have to struggle to be free to raise your children without Church influence. That as a homosexual your rights are still very much less than those of heterosexuals. Then you will know that how it seemed when you were younger was a complete illusion. Or maybe if you actually read the threads you are so quick to condemn you'd already have learned that when it comes to many of the really, really important things in life the Church is still very much in control and people are extremely justified in their unhappiness and anger at that situation.

Galvasean

Kidchameleon wrote: »

OP its because most of the people in here are not actually atheists, they are "militant atheists". Two very different belief systems...

You again?

Links234

Because the catholic church is the worlds biggest pedophile ring? It teaches that contraception and condoms are evil in places that are ravaged by aids? As well as the reasons others have given.

paddyzk

Because we can

mcmoustache

Kidchameleon wrote: »

OP its because most of the people in here are not actually atheists, they are "militant atheists". Two very different belief systems...

For a guy who's so anti-atheism, you sure like to spend a lot of energy taking swipes in here.

Sarky

I think he fancies one of us, but is just too shy to admit it.

endacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

OP its because most of the people in here are not actually atheists, they are "militant atheists". Two very different belief systems...

I'm not militant.

I'm staunch.

:pac:

endacl

What's wrong with poking fun at the cat lick church, by the way?

Genuine question.

Pushtrak

endacl wrote: »

What's wrong with poking fun at the cat lick church, by the way?

Genuine question.

The worst thing that happened cats was having their name be such as it is.

Kidchameleon

I'm not taking a swipe at anyone, I feel there is a difference between an atheist and someone who gets a bone from church bashing

paddyzk

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I'm not taking a swipe at anyone, I feel there is a difference between an atheist and someone who gets a bone from church bashing

That is clearly taking a swipe.

Pushtrak

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I'm not taking a swipe at anyone, I feel there is a difference between an atheist and someone who gets a bone from church bashing

Of course there is (a difference), because the first is just a declaration on their position on the existence of a deity. The second one is about an attitude a person has towards the church. There are people who are religious in group 2, and there are atheists who aren't vocal against the church. Hopefully reading this thread will illustrate why people might be motivated to bash the church.

Galvasean

Sarky wrote: »

I think he fancies one of us, but is just too shy to admit it.

I'd say it's me.
I'm very handsome.

Kivaro

Kidchameleon wrote: »

OP its because most of the people in here are not actually atheists, they are "militant atheists". Two very different belief systems...

Zombrex

whatsup? wrote: »

This is an atheist forum but why on earth do ye guys spend the vast majority of ye're time talking about the Catholic Church and poking fun at it? Why have ye such an interest in something ye claim to be nothing more than fairy-tale?

You just answered your own question. Atheists don't believe God exists. Thus the Catholic church's claim to legitimacy is nonsense to an atheist. Not only do you have the dangerous environment of cover up and self protection in the Church that lead to among other things the sexual abuse scandals (which both believers and non-believers alike were horrified by), but to an atheist the whole set up is a sham, a con job, a system of self promotion and self aggrandizing. The most basic claims the Church make to moral authority over the rest of us, that being that they are God's representative on Earth, are based on a lie. God doesn't exist, so he cannot have representatives on Earth and those that claim to do so are enacting a fraud.

Are you seriously telling me that if you knew of an organisation that had wide spread influence over the society you lived in, influence that was based on false authority derived from a lie, influence that was routinely negative and damaging to society, you would not be bothered to discuss it at all?

Pull the other one. :rolleyes: If for example you knew your local bank was running a financial scam and tricking people into giving over their savings the question "Why do you talk about it since you know the scheme is a scam" would seem nonsensical. It is precisely because it is a scam you would discuss it.

Asking why do atheists, who know the Catholic church is a lie, discuss the Catholic church is equally nonsensical. We discuss it precisely because we know it is a lie.

Genghiz Cohen

OMG I'm getting trolled so hard in this thread, Rev, Kidchameleon & im invisible; masters of the art.
I think I need to sit down....

Kidchameleon

Sarky wrote: »

I think he fancies one of us, but is just too shy to admit it.

Post pics and ill rate

Dades

Play nice everyone and I won't have to put the mod hat on.

Kidchameleon - careful now you're pushing the limits.

18AD

whatsup? wrote: »

why on earth do ye guys spend the vast majority of ye're time talking about the Catholic Church and poking fun at it?

Why should we not poke fun at them?

Fun is pretty fun.

Kidchameleon

18AD wrote: »

Why should we not poke fun at them?

Fun is pretty fun.

Church bashing while at the same time promoting atheism can make all athiests look like church bashers to the average joe. You should leave your church bashing for another forum so as not to associate the two.

What has your hatred for the church got to do with a belief in god or lack thereof? Do you hate the church because of their beliefs or because of their actions? I'm sure their are plenty of Muslim pedophiles out there, Jewish ones, Buddhist ones and of course there are probably plenty of atheist pedophiles too.

endacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

18AD wrote: »

Why should we not poke fun at them?

Fun is pretty fun.

What has your hatred for the church got to do with a belief in god or lack thereof? Do you hate the church because of their beliefs or because of their actions?

Actions. Vile and reprehensible actions. And a long established pattern of refusing to accept the consequences of those actions.

Kidchameleon

endacl wrote: »

Actions. Vile and reprehensible actions. And a long established pattern of refusing to accept the consequences of those actions.

Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum? You might aswell slag off Sega on a Nintendo forum! Its got feck all to do with the churchs beliefs, its their actions that are so wrong. There are millions of Christians out there who despise the church. Being Christian / believing in god, does not necessarily mean you are part of the church.

frozenfrozen

It's not the churches beliefs?! Oh sweet lord jesus zeus thor mary are you being serious?

endacl

Kidchameleon wrote: »

endacl wrote: »

Actions. Vile and reprehensible actions. And a long established pattern of refusing to accept the consequences of those actions.

Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum? You might aswell slag off Sega on a Nintendo forum! Its got feck all to do with the churchs beliefs, its their actions that are so wrong. There are millions of Christians out there who despise the church. Being Christian / believing in god, does not necessarily mean you are part of the church.

Simple. The belief provided the framework to build the structure.

There's nothing inherently wrong with bacteria, but the resulting rotten tooth can be a real problem. Belief in a deity is primitive anachronism, and has no place in the modern world. I've no problem with individual delusion, but when they gather in an organised structure, they effect other people's lives.

It's long past time that the rotten church was pulled.

18AD

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Church bashing while at the same time promoting atheism can make all athiests look like church bashers to the average joe. You should leave your church bashing for another forum so as not to associate the two.

What has your hatred for the church got to do with a belief in god or lack thereof? Do you hate the church because of their beliefs or because of their actions? I'm sure their are plenty of Muslim pedophiles out there, Jewish ones, Buddhist ones and of course there are probably plenty of atheist pedophiles too.

What makes you think I hate the church? I don't really expend any dedicated amount of emotional/mental energy toward it. You have to admit the whole thing is a pretty silly enterprise, no? Go on.

I just think nothing should be free from satire. Seriousness is the worst vice.

Kidchameleon

18AD wrote: »

What makes you think I hate the church? I don't really expend any dedicated amount of emotional/mental energy toward it. You have to admit the whole thing is a pretty silly enterprise, no? Go on.

I just think nothing should be free from satire. Seriousness is the worst vice.

Feckin hate the church myself and sorry if I said you did. I'm just trying to answer the OP's question. It would seem to a bystander that most atheists hate the church. I just dont see what not believing in a god has to do with not liking a club for peados. Believing in god, the teachings of Jesus or the bible does not mean you are part of the church. They are two different things.

Sonics2k

Well to be fair, it comes across for numerous reasons (which we've answered before).

1) This is a largely Catholic country. It's had a huge impact on the country and has caused a lot of controversies over the last few years, especially with the amount of child abuse claims have come out, and it's views on homosexuality, contraception and so on.

2) A lot of this comes up in the news. In this forum you have a lot of politically minded people who have an interest in such things, and so will discuss it. Even with the recent poster Rasheed, it was shown the vast majority of posters here will take part in a good debate, as long as the 'believer' is willing too as well.

3) We actually talk about a lot of religions, but it's easier to discuss things when we have a discussion to base it on.

4) It's so freaking easy to point out the numerous flaws in Christianity, especially Catholicism.

Kidchameleon

endacl wrote: »

Simple. The belief provided the framework to build the structure.

There's nothing inherently wrong with bacteria, but the resulting rotten tooth can be a real problem. Belief in a deity is primitive anachronism, and has no place in the modern world. I've no problem with individual delusion, but when they gather in an organised structure, they effect other people's lives.

It's long past time that the rotten church was pulled.

First of all, a truly modern world would be one where people are free to believe or not believe whatever they want. Saying something "has no place" is a backward statement.

Secondly, I dont agree that belief in God / Jesus set the ground work for the RCC to become a pedophile ring. There are peado rings the world over that have nothing to do with religion. I believe that people with pedophile tendencies joined the church to exploit the position of power and child access that it granted priests. The vast majority of priests are good people. You will find that pedophiles will often settle in areas that have plenty of kids (schools nearby, playgrounds etc...). Parole conditions for the convicted stipulate that they must avoid these types of areas, so it is typical behavior for these types of people to seek out vulnerable people. My point is that the RCC was not set up to abuse children, rather, abusers used it to abuse children.

Sarky

I'm still trying to figure how writing about the silliness of religion in general on the internet can be described as "militant". Are posters on the Beer/Wine/Spirits forum militant alcoholics? Is the film forum militantly anti-book?

Galvasean

Sarky wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure how writing about the silliness of religion in general on the internet can be described as "militant". Are posters on the Beer/Wine/Spirits forum militant alcoholics? Is the film forum militantly anti-book?

If we're what passes for militant atheists then one would imagine the world has very little to fear from militant atheism...
No one seems to apply the word 'militant' to religious folk though. Surely if the same standard was applied to the religious then anyone who attended church or talked about their faith openly would also be 'militant'?

paddyzk

Kidchameleon wrote: »

First of all, a truly modern world would be one where people are free to believe or not believe whatever they want. Saying something "has no place" is a backward statement.

Secondly, I dont agree that belief in God / Jesus set the ground work for the RCC to become a pedophile ring. There are peado rings the world over that have nothing to do with religion. I believe that people with pedophile tendencies joined the church to exploit the position of power and child access that it granted priests. The vast majority of priests are good people. You will find that pedophiles will often settle in areas that have plenty of kids (schools nearby, playgrounds etc...). Parole conditions for the convicted stipulate that they must avoid these types of areas, so it is typical behavior for these types of people to seek out vulnerable people. My point is that the RCC was not set up to abuse children, rather, abusers used it to abuse children.

You seem to know quiet a lot about that sir.

Penn

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum? You might aswell slag off Sega on a Nintendo forum! Its got feck all to do with the churchs beliefs, its their actions that are so wrong. There are millions of Christians out there who despise the church. Being Christian / believing in god, does not necessarily mean you are part of the church.

Which is exactly why we don't post these things on the Christianity forum. It's the church, not its followers that cause most of the harm, so we shouldn't go out of our way to annoy Christians who still follow the church. There's a difference between the church, and it's followers. The Christianity forum is for the followers. Here, we can discuss the church from a more objective view.

Zombrex

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Exactly. So why church bash on an atheist forum?

What forum do you think would be more appropriate for non-believers to discuss the problems and dangers of religious belief?

Your question is like asking why bash dog fighting on the animal welfare forum since the regular posters on that forum don't go to dog fights :rolleyes:

Zombrex

Kidchameleon wrote: »

First of all, a truly modern world would be one where people are free to believe or not believe whatever they want. Saying something "has no place" is a backward statement.

Just because you are free to believe something doesn't mean it is a good idea that you should. You are free to believe that black people are a violent criminals or that the Jews are secretly trying to take over the world. Doesn't mean that such backwards and damaging beliefs have any place in a modern society.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Secondly, I dont agree that belief in God / Jesus set the ground work for the RCC to become a pedophile ring.

Christianity is based around the notion of salvation, specifically salvation by following particular teachings and avoiding wrong doing as defined by the religion. Such a set up, very common among religions, gives any organisation dictating to the masses what is or isn't the correct way to behave particular power and authority over believers. This power and authority leads very easily to abuse, as seen by the unquestioning trust that people put in the Catholic church that allowed the church to carry out the massive cover up of sexual abuse.

Kidchameleon

Zombrex wrote: »

Just because you are free to believe something doesn't mean it is a good idea that you should. You are free to believe that black people are a violent criminals or that the Jews are secretly trying to take over the world. Doesn't mean that such backwards and damaging beliefs have any place in a modern society.

Yes but you said believing in a deity has no place in the modern world. You cant go around telling people what they can and cant believe, that is exactly what organized religion does. Believing in a God is not a problem. Believing in / following the Catholic church is the problem.

Zombrex

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Yes but you said believing in a deity has no place in the modern world. You cant go around telling people what they can and cant believe, that is exactly what organized religion does. Believing in a God is not a problem. Believing in / following the Catholic church is the problem.

Believing in God is a problem because such a belief requires compliance with the "will of God", ie the nonsense some priests and warlords made up a few thousand years ago.

Kidchameleon

Zombrex wrote: »

Christianity is based around the notion of salvation, specifically salvation by following particular teachings and avoiding wrong doing as defined by the religion. Such a set up, very common among religions, gives any organisation dictating to the masses what is or isn't the correct way to behave particular power and authority over believers. This power and authority leads very easily to abuse, as seen by the unquestioning trust that people put in the Catholic church that allowed the church to carry out the massive cover up of sexual abuse.

You could say the same thing about modern day atheism, which is becoming more and more organized. Say in 500 hundred years when most people are atheist, should we start bashing atheism because a small number of them are pedophiles?

And what about other religions? Do they have the same problems with child abuse? Does Islam and Buddhism have the same problems?

Id imagine every organization has problems like this. Its just more pronounced with the RCC because of the sheer size. Is it the biggest organization in the world?

Do schools have a place in the modern world if a teacher abuses a pupil and the school covers it up? Same problem, smaller scale...

Kidchameleon

Zombrex wrote: »

Believing in God is a problem because such a belief requires compliance with the "will of God", ie the nonsense some priests and warlords made up a few thousand years ago.

Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".

Pushtrak

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You could say the same thing about modern day atheism, which is becoming more and more organized. Say in 500 hundred years when most people are atheist, should we start bashing atheism because a small number of them are pedophiles?

If there is an atheist organisation which covers up abuses, and moves abusers around the place, yes.

And what about other religions? Do they have the same problems with child abuse? Does Islam and Buddhism have the same problems?

Islam actually has a bit of a work around for its morality for prostitution. I don't know how common this is, but the work around is like this: The guy will pay a fee to marry the woman for however long, and at the end the marriage is ended. Isn't exactly the catholic church, but it isn't exactly following the religion in a particularly honest fashion.

It also says that muslims should be like Muhammad, who I think most here would agree was not really the model man.

Buddhism? Can't say I've heard anything bad on the matter where child abuse came in to it. Someone may come in and point out examples though.

Id imagine every organization has problems like this. Its just more pronounced with the RCC because of the sheer size. Is it the biggest organization in the world?

Doesn't justify moving abusers around the place to hide the abuse.

Do schools have a place in the modern world if a teacher abuses a pupil and the school covers it up? Same problem, smaller scale...

The school is fine if the teacher is brought up on it, and not merely moved to another school under the influence of someone in the Dept of Education.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".

One can talk to god. He talks back, you may have to visit a mental asylum.

Ickle Magoo

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Nope your wrong there. You can believe in god, have a friendship with god, talk, pray ect with god. Again, the church is the one preaching the "will of god".

What's the ratio of agnostics to religious do you think?

Or the ratio of religious Vs theist irreligious?

Kidchameleon

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

What's the ratio of agnostics to religious do you think?

Or the ratio of religious Vs theist irreligious?

Wouldn't have a clue. Id imagine more and more people every day, while still believing in God / Jesus, are seeing the RCC for what it is.