Irish Rail - 5pm DART from Pearse now only 4 carriages long

foggy_lad · 15-07-2012 01:53AM

Millem wrote: »

Rail freight is one of only 2 profitable operations at irish rail. The other is rosslare europort. Rail freight made an €800k profit in 2010

some would call that creative accounting considering the way Bus Eireann are able to shift their money around between subsidised and non subsidised services.

CIE · 15-07-2012 03:11AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

some would call that creative accounting considering the way Bus Eireann are able to shift their money around between subsidised and non subsidised services.

You can always accuse a government agency of creative accounting without it being slanderous. However, profitable railfreight would not fall under that umbrella.

As for Rosslare, its business could only be boosted by returning the trains back to the actual boat terminal versus that remote platform that was constructed for some bizarre reason (if reason at all). It'd also help if the trains actually met the boats, as well; there is no excuse not to readjust timetables to do this.

end of the road · 15-07-2012 04:29AM

CIE wrote: »

As for Rosslare, its business could only be boosted by returning the trains back to the actual boat terminal versus that remote platform that was constructed for some bizarre reason (if reason at all). It'd also help if the trains actually met the boats, as well; there is no excuse not to readjust timetables to do this.

mwuh, not going to happen, IE are dead set on driving away all custom from rosslare including train passengers at all costs as part of their mission to close the line possibly all the way to graystones, their problem is that a lot of us down here are stubbern and won't go away from the trains no matter what they do. have celtic ferries left rosslare yet? apparently they were thinking about going?

CIE · 15-07-2012 09:15AM

end of the road wrote: »

mwuh, not going to happen, IE are dead set on driving away all custom from rosslare including train passengers at all costs as part of their mission to close the line possibly all the way to graystones, their problem is that a lot of us down here are stubbern and won't go away from the trains no matter what they do. have celtic ferries left rosslare yet? apparently they were thinking about going?

Time to vote in some politicians that are not of the current political machine, then? (And I'm not referring to those involved in an organisation that sounds a bit like the front bone of the lower leg, if you know what I mean.)

If Celtic Ferries stop operating out of Rosslare, then the government will be to blame for driving them out. When a government is that much anti-business, it's got to go.

bk · 15-07-2012 04:37PM

Wow, how can anyone seriously compare rail freight in the US and Canada with Ireland with a straight face?

Of course rail freight is very profitable in the US and Canada, I never said it wasn't, they are transporting massive amounts of heavy bulk freight and heavy mining materials thousands and miles across a continent!!

Ireland is nothing like that, you can put a parcel or freight on the back of a van or truck and have it in any city in Ireland within 3 hours. Also every city is on the sea and has a port. Finally Ireland has very little heavy industry or mining. Most Irish business is light to medium just in time type industries, totally unsuited to rail freight.

Basically you couldn't find a country in the world less suited to rail freight.

The reality is rail freight represents less then 1% of all freight moved in Ireland and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

dowlingm · 15-07-2012 05:35PM

the Alstom thing always intrigued me. If there was a candidate to be shifted off into a remote siding it was those, but there they were taking up a siding in Fairview (which might have been usable to park a set of C3Ks rather than sending them up to Dundalk on 6 nations weekends) and even occasionally moved to/from Inchicore for who knows what reason. I had some ideas about converting them to the front and back end of a longer EMU set but that died with Interconnector.

end of the road · 15-07-2012 06:55PM

what exactly is the problem or problems with the alsthoms? could they not be refurbished like the LHBS?

Losty Dublin · 15-07-2012 07:55PM

A lack of spare parts from the manufacturers GEC/Alstom means that it's impossible to keep them on the road for any length of time.

Losty Dublin · 15-07-2012 08:01PM

dowlingm wrote: »

the Alstom thing always intrigued me. If there was a candidate to be shifted off into a remote siding it was those, but there they were taking up a siding in Fairview (which might have been usable to park a set of C3Ks rather than sending them up to Dundalk on 6 nations weekends) and even occasionally moved to/from Inchicore for who knows what reason. I had some ideas about converting them to the front and back end of a longer EMU set but that died with Interconnector.

NIR drivers don't know the lay out of the Dart yard or towards Inchicore so they can't access either yard for laying over railcars. While a pilot man could be sent down, the drivers and pilot would need to be on hand to move their railcars if required so it's impractical as well.

end of the road · 15-07-2012 08:43PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A lack of spare parts from the manufacturers GEC/Alstom means that it's impossible to keep them on the road for any length of time.

canabalising one set for parts isn't an option either. a shame, their only 12/13 years old. IE were really screwed with these. doubt they will ever buy trains from alsthom again, can't say i blame them either.

CIE · 15-07-2012 09:57PM

bk wrote: »

Wow, how can anyone seriously compare rail freight in the US and Canada with Ireland with a straight face?

People still acting like things work differently in Ireland than in any other place in the world, seriously? Guess what: they work the same all over the world. The application is what is different.

bk wrote: »

Of course rail freight is very profitable in the US and Canada, I never said it wasn't, they are transporting massive amounts of heavy bulk freight and heavy mining materials thousands and miles across a continent

Short lines and regional lines do not do that. And they are still profitable. They are not subsidised. They couldn't stay in business if they could not make a profit doing what they do. They outnumber the big "Class 1" railways by about fifty to one.

bk wrote: »

The reality is rail freight represents less then 1% of all freight moved in Ireland and that isn't going to change anytime soon

No, the reality is that government is what controls transport policy in Ireland and whatever the situation is with railfreight is their unilateral decision, as arbitrary and as draconian as it is. That means that a government with a different orientation can either relax said control (which means actually allowing private railway operators to run trains in the country) or reverse the unilateral anti-railfreight policies of the country even with state operation of railways, which will mean massive reform of the status quo anyway.

For my part, I'm still waiting for someone to try to tell me "with a straight face" that a government that controls both rail and road transport policy and funding does not have a conflict of interest.

Millem · 15-07-2012 10:02PM

end of the road wrote: »

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A lack of spare parts from the manufacturers GEC/Alstom means that it's impossible to keep them on the road for any length of time.

canabalising one set for parts isn't an option either. a shame, their only 12/13 years old. IE were really screwed with these. doubt they will ever buy trains from alsthom again, can't say i blame them either.

I could be wrong but my understanding was that the issue was to do with the price of spares rather than their availability. A ten car subfleet spares purchase isn't going to offer the economies of scale that a LHB or jap order would. In addition their maintenance differs slightly from other dart units as they are of a different manufacturer.

At least 6 of the 10 units are rescueable and serviceable with a small amount of maintenance. Afaik set 4 was cannibalised for parts and I think set 2 suffered a fire?

A senior figure within IR told me that post the delivery of the refurbished LHBs a decision was made not to put more money into the alstom sets; that they would rather withdraw than overhaul as the 154 LHBs & japs would more than cover the dart service schedule.

A standard fleet is common to most major transport providers these days and it seems IR didn't want the hassle of maintaining a small fleet that had proven unreliable at times

CIE · 15-07-2012 10:08PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

A lack of spare parts from the manufacturers GEC/Alstom means that it's impossible to keep them on the road for any length of time.

Why did Alstom discontinue spare parts for EMUs that are only twelve years old? (I'm presuming the 8200 class is meant, here.)

Cookie_Monster · 15-07-2012 10:28PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

NIR drivers don't know the lay out of the Dart yard or towards Inchicore so they can't access either yard for laying over railcars. While a pilot man could be sent down, the drivers and pilot would need to be on hand to move their railcars if required so it's impractical as well.

What do NIR have to do with moving DART units?

Adnimistrator · 15-07-2012 10:32PM

devnull wrote: »

How many dart carriages do IE have and how many are used in service each day?

I know it will save fuel etc, but if they cut too much they will just have non performing assets sitting around?

Is it not more expensive to leave them in fairview depot than to hook them up to other trains .... can these electric dart carriages be hooked up to the diesel locos ?? One day I saw an out of service train heading to Dundalk past skerries with a Darts coupled to a diesel loco .. in that case can the redundant carriages in fairview not be hooked up to the ever-shortening diesel route ?? After the initial cost of fueling the rolling stock and paying the driver, surely adding an extra carriage or tow won't increase operating costs that much ??

Our man in Havana · 15-07-2012 11:20PM

Darts cannot be coupled to diesel locos for passenger service. Only for rescue/moving only.

dowlingm · 16-07-2012 02:34AM

the reality is that the Alstoms aren't needed now that the LHB refurb is done. When Varadkar was made minister I thought he might get a go to electrify Maynooth but it's clear now that would have created an even bigger excess of DMU in the current environment of declining demand and a shrinking network (or at least to this point the cancellation of Navan-M3) unhelped by the failure of NIR/IE to deploy 22s/C3Ks on additional scheduled Enterprise diagrams.

Losty, I take your point on driver currency but how hard would it be to familiarise C3K drivers with Fairview? To an amateur like myself it seems worth the effort rather burn diesel up and down the Northern Line, not to mention create better economics for specials currently deemed too marginal to operate.

end of the road · 16-07-2012 03:36AM

Millem wrote: »

At least 6 of the 10 units are rescueable and serviceable with a small amount of maintenance.

if thats the case then they should probably keep them on standby incase of an emergency (as in their not being enough LHBS or japs to cover, unlikely but you never know) nobody is going to buy them anyway so they may as well keep them surely?

Millem wrote: »

set 2 suffered a fire?

yes 1 set received fire damage.

Millem wrote: »

A senior figure within IR told me that post the delivery of the refurbished LHBs a decision was made not to put more money into the alstom sets; that they would rather withdraw than overhaul as the 154 LHBs & japs would more than cover the dart service schedule.

more waste. why didn't they take legal action against alsthom for providing inferior products?

Millem wrote: »

A standard fleet is common to most major transport providers these days

i think that was always the case realy? apparently many british rail locos and DMUS were withdrawn early or ran until they couldn't run no more because they weren't of a standard fleet. but these transport companies unless their in the EU don't have to deal with the EU rules in relation to the tendering and awarding of contracts. so if they don't want to buy from for example alsthom they don't have to. i don't know how these EU rules work but i imagine at the time both the 2700s and later the 8200s were bought alsthoms bid was the best one under those rules?

Millem wrote: »

it seems IR didn't want the hassle of maintaining a small fleet that had proven unreliable at times

while i can understand their decisian, its still waste as 12/13 year old units are being left to most lightly rot after seeing very little service. i believe IE should have took legal action against alsthom in relation to these units. without these EU rules maybe they could have awarded the contract for the 8200s and 2700s to tokio car (thats if they bid for the contract, and even if their bid was a little less or the cost of the units were a little more or however it works i don't know)

end of the road · 16-07-2012 03:45AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What do NIR have to do with moving DART units?

i think their saying that if the alsthom 8200 units weren't in fairview that NIR could stable their c3k/c4k trains there if they were down instead of running them empty back to york road or where-ever.

CIE · 16-07-2012 04:57AM

Millem wrote: »

I could be wrong but my understanding was that the issue was to do with the price of spares rather than their availability. A ten car subfleet spares purchase isn't going to offer the economies of scale that a LHB or jap order would. In addition their maintenance differs slightly from other dart units as they are of a different manufacturer.

At least 6 of the 10 units are rescueable and serviceable with a small amount of maintenance. Afaik set 4 was cannibalised for parts and I think set 2 suffered a fire?

A senior figure within IR told me that post the delivery of the refurbished LHBs a decision was made not to put more money into the alstom sets; that they would rather withdraw than overhaul as the 154 LHBs & japs would more than cover the dart service schedule.

A standard fleet is common to most major transport providers these days and it seems IR didn't want the hassle of maintaining a small fleet that had proven unreliable at times

So...on one hand they talk up expansion of DART service, and on the other, they talk shrinking the DART fleet. All at the same time. And when they rebuilt the Linke Hoffmann Busch 8100/8300 sets during the period that DART expansion was still being talked up, no thought was given to engaging Alstom to fix the problems with the 8200s. And all during this period, a binge-purchase of DMUs was going on and the railway was falling all over itself to retire rebuildable GM locos and Mark 3s (including the push-pull suburban Mark 3s that could have been re-adapted for Dublin-Cork). And that's aside from being all colour-scheme-happy, repainting DMUs that really only required a good washing and at most a touch-up. At this point, it looks to me like even retaining the Cravens in service would have saved the Irish public a lot of money.

Besides, IE does not have a so-called "standard fleet" whether EMU, DMU or push-pull.

bk · 16-07-2012 10:39AM

CIE wrote: »

People still acting like things work differently in Ireland than in any other place in the world, seriously? Guess what: they work the same all over the world.

Ah, come on really? I agree with the general sentiment that Irish people tend to be too negative and many things can work here in Ireland that we say can't (e.g. Dublin Bikes). But you do have to leverage a certain degree of logical critical thinking when comparing what can and can't work in Ireland.

Hey super high speed trains work in Japan, does that mean we can do them here too?

Of course not, we don't have the population size or densities to support the billions it would cost to build a high speed train.

Likewise with rail freight, you literally couldn't get a country less suited to it. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, if it can be done profitably without subsidy and doesn't effect passenger services, then great I'm all for it.

But the reality is it will never make up more the a percent or two of all freight in Ireland and it certainly won't save rail.

Again you never actually challenged any of the points I made about why rail freight isn't suited to Ireland:

- You can get from Dublin to any city in Ireland in less then 3 hours with a truck or van.
- Most freight would need to be trucked too and from the train anyway, making it pointless.
- Every city in Ireland is a port.
- Ireland has almost no heavy industry and almost no mining.
- Most of Irelands industry is light to medium, just in time type business, much more suited to road freight.
- No danger of a strike by Irish Rail crippling your business (a very important point for many companies).

Seeing all of these facts, if I was the CEO of IR, I wouldn't be putting much investment in rail freight either. There just isn't a logical business case for it.

Losty Dublin · 16-07-2012 11:02AM

CIE wrote: »

Why did Alstom discontinue spare parts for EMUs that are only twelve years old? (I'm presuming the 8200 class is meant, here.)

You'd need to ask them; personally I think it's crazy that they have done this. There have been discussions with GEC about some sort of closure about this but this mess is their doing.

@Cookie, NIR drivers don't know the layout, setting of points, local rules etc of Fairview yard or Inchicore so they can't use the two yards. For the 2 or 3 times a year they may need it and the time taken out to learn same, using Dundalk is a better option.

wile1000 · 16-07-2012 02:33PM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

This I think is the main point - the knock-on effect of people having to sprint up one end of the platform, squeezing on, at each stop an additional minute adds up. My Dart the other morning was 10 minutes late which rarely happens otherwise.

Agreed. I don't object so much to the reasoning behind running shorter trains, but they need to be used sensibly. Why drive all the way to the top of the platform each time leaving half a platform to run up and squeeze onto the 4th carriage? Appreciate it can't always happen (eg. where there is a bend in the platform and the tvs at the top of the platform need to be used) but I've seen trains pull into otherwise straight platforms and go all the way to the top.

Park halfway along the platform, like rail systems across the world does, and spread the crush across carriages 1 & 4...

end of the road · 16-07-2012 03:54PM

bk wrote: »

Hey super high speed trains work in Japan, does that mean we can do them here too?

well 100 to 125 mph running would be high speed enough. its not super high speed but it is fast and it is doable, maybe not now as we can't afford it but in the future it should be considered. of course it should have been done but this is ireland after all.

bk wrote: »

I'm not saying we shouldn't try, if it can be done profitably without subsidy and doesn't effect passenger services, then great I'm all for it.

of course we should try it, it doesn't have to be IE running it, it could be a private company but open access has to happen which it has to under EU rules? i believe these rules don't effect passenger services though.

bk wrote: »

But the reality is it will never make up more the a percent or two of all freight in Ireland and it certainly won't save rail.

nobody suggested it would save rail, it won't. it might help a little but ultimately attracting passengers to and back to the railways has to be the ultimate aim.

bk wrote: »

No danger of a strike by Irish Rail crippling your business (a very important point for many companies).

agree, wasn't that the reason in the end for the kingscourt branches closure? the company decided to move to road because of a strike in 2001? wouldn't be an issue if private operators were allowed to use our railways. their are EU rules in relation to this i believe

bk wrote: »

Seeing all of these facts, if I was the CEO of IR, I wouldn't be putting much investment in rail freight either. There just isn't a logical business case for it.

but they had the custom, they either drove it away or didn't do anything to keep it. they then got rid of more or less everything to do with freight.

Kumsheen · 16-07-2012 05:11PM

bk wrote: »

I feel they are targeting the completely wrong area for cut backs. I wonder if Irish Rail have given every department a 10% (for example) budget cut, rather then prioritising services and cutting the less important services more deeply.

Totally. These are their bread and butter customers and who's fares are carrying the company.

But it's a typical response from a state run company to go straight to cutting front line service delivery when cuts have to be made, because it's easier for them to do than look for savings elsewhere.

They don't even have to go as far as touching salaries, i'd say there are probably millions to be saved elsewhere on procurement, external providers and maybe even overall energy consumption techniques in other areas.

As an example. Look at the recent published cost to the HSE of a patient meal, and this had been left untouched during all those years of frontline service cuts.

LXFlyer · 16-07-2012 07:22PM

bk wrote: »

I feel they are targeting the completely wrong area for cut backs. I wonder if Irish Rail have given every department a 10% (for example) budget cut, rather then prioritising services and cutting the less important services more deeply.

With respect how do you know that they are not actually doing precisely that as well?

Millem · 16-07-2012 07:52PM

I know it's an easy one to point to, but the CEO grossed €331,565 in 2010. The annual report for 2011 is not yet available, the likelihood being his salary was not wildly different.

Optically it is very hard to justify severe service cuts if these aren't concurrent with cuts in the remuneration of management.

Anecdotally I have heard that management have not taken cuts anyway proximate to what staff have had to take.

dowlingm · 16-07-2012 08:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

i think their saying that if the alsthom 8200 units weren't in fairview that NIR could stable their c3k/c4k trains there if they were down instead of running them empty back to york road or where-ever.

Dundalk.

EDIT: Keeping the Alstoms means keeping driver type training current too.

LXFlyer · 16-07-2012 08:31PM

Millem wrote: »

I know it's an easy one to point to, but the CEO grossed €331,565 in 2010. The annual report for 2011 is not yet available, the likelihood being his salary was not wildly different.

Optically it is very hard to justify severe service cuts if these aren't concurrent with cuts in the remuneration of management.

Anecdotally I have heard that management have not taken cuts anyway proximate to what staff have had to take.

And what cuts did staff take so far?

Millem · 16-07-2012 08:58PM

lxflyer wrote: »

Millem wrote: »

I know it's an easy one to point to, but the CEO grossed €331,565 in 2010. The annual report for 2011 is not yet available, the likelihood being his salary was not wildly different.

Optically it is very hard to justify severe service cuts if these aren't concurrent with cuts in the remuneration of management.

Anecdotally I have heard that management have not taken cuts anyway proximate to what staff have had to take.

And what cuts did staff take so far?

I don't have any figures re take home pay for staff but I do know that Irish rail have rationalised over 3,000 staff since 2001 and by the end of next year will have shed 1/3 of its staff since 2000. It is unlikely that anything nearly as draconian has occurred at management level.

Irish Rail - 5pm DART from Pearse now only 4 carriages long

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