Irish Rail - 5pm DART from Pearse now only 4 carriages long

RoryMurphyJnr

Can anyone tell me why the 5pm dart from Pearse to greystones now only has 4 carriages?

Resulting in most passengers standing the whole way home not to mention the heat.
This right at the start of rush.
Ta
R

LXFlyer

Cost cutting I'd imagine.

devnull

How many dart carriages do IE have and how many are used in service each day?

I know it will save fuel etc, but if they cut too much they will just have non performing assets sitting around?

patrickbrophy18

devnull wrote: »

I know it will save fuel etc, but if they cut too much they will just have non performing assets sitting around?

The thing is, unlike the Commuters and Intercitys, DARTs are not powered by any fuel. They are powered by the overhead wires. Additionally, the overhead wires are always live when the DARTs are in operation. As such, I cannot see how shortening trains lowers their operational cost. Unless, four extra carriages draw a significantly higher amount of energy from the overhead wires. However, I would have thought that electrified carriages, in general, are many times more economical and energy efficient than their diesel cousins.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, this also happened to me yesterday on the exact same service coming back from Pearse (i.e the 5:00PM Greystones service). Either-way, it is unacceptable to cram peak hour commuters into a four carriage train like a sardine can.:mad:

Our man in Havana

Maybe there are issues with the availability of rolling stock?

n97 mini

A lot of people have been asking this on twitter and the stock answer is:

There is reduced capacity on a number of services due to lower seasonal demand

Some services have reduced capacity due to lower seasonal demand

Hi, there is reduced capacity on some services at present due to lower seasonal demand.

Captain Chaos

That's a load of BS. The rush hours DARTs in the mornings are only 4 cars aswell and are too over crowded. 6 minimum is needed at all times. 8 cars on all DARTs from 6am-10am and 4pm to 8pm.

There is no excuse to operate DARTs are pre 2000 capacity. At this rate I'm going back to my car.

Losty Dublin

The Dart has usually dropped a few carriages on some sets in July and August as commuter passenger numbers drop significantly during the school and summer holidays. The power saving would be reasonable as the trains will be consuming pro rata less electricity than a longer set. A lot of servicing on sets is undertaken around this time of year as well.

n97 mini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That's a load of BS. The rush hours DARTs in the mornings are only 4 cars aswell and are too over crowded. 6 minimum is needed at all times. 8 cars on all DARTs from 6am-10am and 4pm to 8pm.

There is no excuse to operate DARTs are pre 2000 capacity. At this rate I'm going back to my car.

You should have seen the Maynooth line. For most of 1998 I travelled in the guard's van to work. I regularly got on and off from the ditch as the guard's van didn't reach the platform. And this was in leafy Castleknock, not some out of the way place.

Atlantic Dawn

Same with the 7.45 from Howth, previously was 8 carriages at peak, now 4. It's always helpful that the drivers don't turn on the air conditioning and in some cases have the heating on in the non window opening DARTs just to everyone can feel that extra bit ill.

Irish Rail is a joke of an organisation with regards to taking customer feedback, they annually run a survey about what station you think it the best on the route, as if I would decide to go to Bray in the mornings because it's a lovely station instead of my local station in Howth :rolleyes:, it's something no passanger has any preferance on whatsoever. They never have any surveys on passenger comfort on the DARTs or rather lack of it, drivers not knowing when to heat the carriages and when not to.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The Dart has usually dropped a few carriages on some sets in July and August as commuter passenger numbers drop significantly during the school and summer holidays.

stats for that? While you can discount the school kids alright not ever commuter goes on holidays for all of july and aug you know. maybe a 10-15% drop in number but I seriously doubt it's 50%
given that even when at absolute peak they have numerous sets out of operation anyway(as you can see going past Clontarf) maintenance should be easy to spread evenly throughout the year rather than concentrated

Victor

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Maybe there are issues with the availability of rolling stock?

Plenty of stock available.

ArmaniJeanss

I guess they have a theory that 80% of 9-5 workers take their fortnights holidays in July/August, therefore on any day of these two months there are 20% less commuters than normal at morning and evening peak.

And this was possibly true one time, but there may well be a changing trend of people taking holidays at different times.

And one-off events like the Euros with Irish qualification might have suddenly seen a lot of commuters use their holidays earlier than normal and be working straight through July and August (I'd definitely be one ).

foggy_lad

It's just miserable penny-pinching from some manegerial bean counter who has forgotten the number of kids who will be using the dart to go everywhere else besides school during the holidays, Also they reduce rolling stock by 50% for a 20% decrease in passengers for a service which would have been fairly full with 8 carriages........beggars belief.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

beggars belief.

You know, it doesn't really. Us users (prisoners) of the Maynooth line view DART users as spoilt, what with being able to get seats, having trains that are much faster and quieter over a comparable distance, being able to get a train home after 9pm on Sundays after 11:15pm weekdays, having a service more frequently than hourly etc.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

You know, it doesn't really. Us users (prisoners) of the Maynooth line view DART users as spoilt, what with being able to get seats, having trains that are much faster and quieter over a comparable distance, being able to get a train home after 9pm on Sundays after 11:15pm weekdays, having a service more frequently than hourly etc.

But loike Maynooth is not loike Blackrock or Killoiney, the dart has its own accent and the only thing the maynooth line has is a quick turnaround and back to civilisation:D

I remember when Maynooth only had 2 commuter "wagon" trains morning and evening plus standing room only on the Sligo cattle carts. The old station staff member was a bit of a pr1ck at times was often late pulling up the shutter and would often pull the shutter down before the trains arrived so anyone who was just a bit late had no chance of getting the train!

end of the road

its irish rail, need i say more? they realy need to get a grip and listen to the customer feedback they get, but as usual they won't of course because that would make sense

CIE

I do have to laugh at this one. They had the DART closed on weekends a little under nine years ago so that they could rebuild the station platforms to accommodate eight-carriage trains. And here we are in 2012 with four-car DART trains during peak hours. It's not operating costs, since with electrified trains, those are minimal depending on train length; it sounds to me like maintenance/reliability problems and the company isn't telling the public. (We going to go back to two-car DARTs off-peak as well, like when the DART service first started in the 80s?)

BTW, as far as the DMUs go, they have better seating than the DART, faster top speeds (only the 8500/8600 class DART approaches the top speed of DMUs), acceleration very close to the EMUs, no annoying AC traction motor whine, and lavatories. I think I'd regard myself as spoiled riding those compared to a cattle-car DART.

n97 mini

CIE wrote: »

BTW, as far as the DMUs go, they have better seating than the DART, faster top speeds (only the 8500/8600 class DART approaches the top speed of DMUs), acceleration very close to the EMUs, no annoying AC traction motor whine, and lavatories. I think I'd regard myself as spoiled riding those compared to a cattle-car DART.

I'd give up all those things in exchange for a fast, frequent service.

BTW, whine of en electric motor is far preferable to the rattle and fumes of a diesel engine.

BraziliaNZ

I feel for all of you, the dart is an absolute joke, it hasn't improved over the years at all. Must be the slowest public transport line in Europe too, it snails along. I'm from near Harmonstown station so I used it in the past. It's fine after about 9am as it's not too busy but if you work in town you're much better off cycling which I did for years. I live in London now and the tube can get busy but at least they come every minute or two.
What really needs to be done for the dart to improve? Can they even put more trains on in the morning with the other routes coming into connolly etc?

Pipmae

I was wondering what the point of the digital notice displays saying "Darts can be 4 carriages so move up the platform for boarding" or something to that effect. It makes sense now.

bk

Well Dart Underground is what is needed, it would allow them to increase frequency greatly.

I agree that what you want is a fast frequent service, much better then the current set up of high capacity (normally) but low frequency and slow.

There are some massive gaps in the schedule, particularly on a Sunday that making the DART just painful to use. Often better off getting a bus!!

Perhaps the experts here will know, but wasn't improved signal works recently completed in the city center area? Will this signalling work not allow for more trains and more frequent DART service?

Because unfortunately, Dart Underground is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, so we need to figure out a way of upgrading the DART service without it.

washman3

foggy_lad wrote: »

It's just miserable penny-pinching from some manegerial bean counter who has forgotten the number of kids who will be using the dart to go everywhere else besides school during the holidays, Also they reduce rolling stock by 50% for a 20% decrease in passengers for a service which would have been fairly full with 8 carriages........beggars belief.

Its cutbacks,plain and simple. It's what the majority voted for in the last election. If you think this is bad just wait and see whats coming.!! and forget all the media spin you hear every day about a "recovery" :mad:

CIE

n97 mini wrote: »

I'd give up all those things in exchange for a fast, frequent service.

BTW, whine of en electric motor is far preferable to the rattle and fumes of a diesel engine.

How many trains per hour is "frequent", and what average speed is "fast"?

I remember when four-car DARTs were running every five minutes during the day per direction (12 trains per hour) and two-car DARTs ran every ten minutes during off hours. The 8100 class accelerated rather slowly when first put into service, too; acceleration improved with age (and probably overhauls), but it'll still never get above 100 km/h, and they'll never send twelve trains per hour to Maynooth or up to Drogheda if those lines ever get converted to DART, and if you really have to answer nature's call, you're going to have to jump out at one of the stations and catch the next train (and if the train is delayed by signals/congestion, start praying).

bk wrote: »

Well DART Underground is what is needed; it would allow them to increase frequency greatly

I keep seeing this repeated as some manner of mantra, by lots of people. What I never see is any evidence that merely re-routing existing services would ever do such a thing; only see rhetoric about the "loop line" and its congestion (well for the spoiled lumpen proletariat, if you had to live in the 70s when most trains from the northern lines did not even serve the Loop Line, Tara Street was closed every weekend, and even Howth trains terminated at Inset Platform 4 in Connolly, where would ye be?) And if average speeds take a hit, I don't give a whit about frequency; four trains per hour is enough for me, so long as I can get an average speed at least in the 26-30 mph range (DART's average speed is 25 mph; Luas' average speed seems to be stuck at 16-18 mph). And oh yes; I'd like to be able to get to the city centre without having to transfer at Pearse (having that many transfer passengers will really congest the Loop Line trains beyond belief).

CIE

washman3 wrote: »

Its cutbacks,plain and simple. It's what the majority voted for in the last election. If you think this is bad just wait and see whats coming.!! and forget all the media spin you hear every day about a "recovery" :mad:

Ever read the Third Amendment to Ireland's Constitution (1972)? It made European law supreme to Irish law. The country's been a vassal of Germany for all those years. Any "rebels" out there who would dare take on Germany?

bk

How frequent?

As you say every 5 minutes peak and every 10 mintues off peak.

Hell even 15 minutes wouldn't be so bad. At the moment you frequently get caught with 22 minute waits at weekends and sometimes even as much as 40 minutes!!

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

stats for that? While you can discount the school kids alright not ever commuter goes on holidays for all of july and aug you know. maybe a 10-15% drop in number but I seriously doubt it's 50%
given that even when at absolute peak they have numerous sets out of operation anyway(as you can see going past Clontarf) maintenance should be easy to spread evenly throughout the year rather than concentrated

Every commuter service has a huge drop in numbers in June-August, Christmas, Easter and mid term weeks as schools knock off and people take off for holidays and that. It would be closer to 25% of a drop taking schools into account.

Atlantic Dawn

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Every commuter service has a huge drop in numbers in June-August, Christmas, Easter and mid term weeks as schools knock off and people take off for holidays and that. It would be closer to 25% of a drop taking schools into account.

But a 5pm service from Pearse would be mostly workers returning from work, perhaps a 5-10% reduction in these months with people going on holidays, that doesn't explain the reduced capacity.

When the bean counters take in to account the stoppages that will result from people collapsing with the heat and having to be evacuated by ambulance along with increased personal injury claims from congested carriages they will find leaving it as it was made mist sense.

neil_hosey

i was also baffled getting on a pearse yesterday at half 5... the bleedin thing was packed! and quite a few people couldnt fit on at pearse, grand canal dock , and lansdowne...

you can make a complaint here. Why they think this is ok is beyond me!

http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=117&n=227

LXFlyer

Well perhaps you should get in touch with the Minister for Transport whose Department are cutting the subsidy to IE.

Something eventually has to give....

schemingbohemia

I can't understand why it's either 4 or 8, surely if they used mostly 6 carriages they'd have the same effect?

LXFlyer

The point is running 4 cars is significantly cheaper than running 8 in terms of electricity used.

While I have some sympathy with the DART passengers above, they are only experiencing what Maynooth line passengers have for years.

The reality is that subsidies are being cut and withdrawn and the only way to deal with this is to cut costs. This is one element of this programme I would imagine.

EricPraline

n97 mini wrote: »

A lot of people have been asking this on twitter and the stock answer is:

There is reduced capacity on a number of services due to lower seasonal demand

It speaks volumes about (a) the outmoded culture within Irish Rail, (b) the gulf between Irish Rail and their customers, if they assume that the usage for 9-5 commuters will dramatically fall off during summer months. As others have said, the seasonal long July/Aug holidays are a thing of the past in Ireland for most people.

end of the road

while cutting costs may be the reason for the shorter trains, in the long run overcrowding is going to drive away customers is it not?

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

While I have some sympathy with the DART passengers above, they are only experiencing what Maynooth line passengers have for years.

Is that relevant?

If IR believe they can't fill an 8 car train in the evening peak, does that mean that all DARTs will be 4 cars for the summer?

Captain Chaos

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I can't understand why it's either 4 or 8, surely if they used mostly 6 carriages they'd have the same effect?

Because the DART units are effectively two fleets of carriages. It's technically 4 but one has 3 sub classes.

The older LHBs can be made up in base sets of 2 so 4,6,8 car trains are possible. The newer Tokyu Car units can only be made up as base sets of 4 so 4 or 8 car trains can be formed.

The new and old DART units used to be mixed together to make 6 car sets with 4 new and 2 old units in the early 2000s when the platforms were not long enough for 8 car trains but that is not done in practice anymore since the older units came back from their mid life refurb.

Millem

Was out in Killiney today and saw an 8 car LHB unit - a relative rarity these days. Also saw one the other day also. I could be wrong but perhaps IR have decided to pull a number of jap units for heavy maintenance for the summer.

LHBs for the last number of years for whatever reason have been used only as 4 or 6 carriage units, and IR's sudden preference to step these up to 8 cars does point to a lack of fleet availability in the other dart classes

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Is that relevant?

If IR believe they can't fill an 8 car train in the evening peak, does that mean that all DARTs will be 4 cars for the summer?

I think it's a point worth making, in terms of putting it into context.

As I said I suspect this move has far more to do with cost cutting than anything else, faced with the large subsidy cuts. People can complain about "bean counters" but the company as with the other public sector bodies are faced with a serious funding shortfall.

Personally I believe that the company are nearing the point where they need to consider whether they can continue operating the full current timetable.

While some people may decide not to use the DART due to the changes, I would say any revenue lost as a result would pale into insignificance compared with the cost savings from halving the electricity intake of a set out all day.

Not good news I'm afraid, but I doubt this is the worst that we will see.

Captain Chaos

Millem wrote: »

Was out in Killiney today and saw an 8 car LHB unit - a relative rarity these days. Also saw one the other day also. I could be wrong but perhaps IR have decided to pull a number of jap units for heavy maintenance for the summer.

LHBs for the last number of years for whatever reason have been used only as 4 or 6 carriage units, and IR's sudden preference to step these up to 8 cars does point to a lack of fleet availability in the other dart classes

I was thinking that myself. For the past 3 weeks there are at least 2 8 car LHB sets in operation each day. Up to that point the LHBs were always in 6 car sets even at weekends. The Jap sets would drop to 4 at weekends.

It does look like a lack of servicable Jap sets to me and they are trying to make up the difference with longer LHB sets.

Millem

if the lack of capacity on current services is the product of poor planning rather than a summer rationalisation I would be astonished. With (theoretically) a LHB fleet of 154 carriages plus jap units and the mothballed spaniards it would be very surprising that IR were having trouble with fleet availability.

I'd say penny pinching and heavy maintenance on 3-4 jap units underpins the rationalised capacity over the last couple of weeks.

Alsthoms for a shock return anyone?

Captain Chaos

Millem wrote: »

Alsthoms for a shock return anyone?

Not a hope, they haven't turned a wheel in months perhaps a year since there was a bit of movement around the depot. There is a set abandoned in Inchicore for a few years now. Assuming there were even fit for service there would need to be a lot of driver re-familiarisation trips to re-qualify on them. Too much time, effort and cost.

Wiki says they are to be sold off/put up for sale this year along with 2700 DMUs.

Millem

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Millem wrote: »

Alsthoms for a shock return anyone?

Not a hope, they haven't turned a wheel in months perhaps a year since there was a bit of movement around the depot. There is a set abandoned in Inchicore for a few years now. Assuming there were even fit for service there would need to be a lot of driver re-familiarisation trips to re-qualify on them. Too much time, effort and cost.

Wiki says they are to be sold off/put up for sale this year along with 2700 DMUs.

Sorry I meant to put a smiley after my Alsthom comment there! I did a thesis on IR and met with a senior IR figure. He said they should never have been bought and suffer from small fleet syndrome (re availability and expensiveness of spares due to their economies of scale). They are serviceable though (if defects fixed) but realistically won't run again as there is no need to run such a small subfleet when there are plenty of japs and LHBs about.

IR optimistically believes that they can find a buyer. I would have my doubts - gauge and previous service history being the big drawbacks.

Likelihood is that the 8200s will go the way of the MK3s and 2700s and rot.

Last time I checked the 8200 at inchicore has been split in 2 and both parts of the train are parked beside each other on parallel lines and facing the same direction. (both cabs facing same way)

Shame really

CIE

lxflyer wrote: »

The point is running 4 cars is significantly cheaper than running 8 in terms of electricity used.

While I have some sympathy with the DART passengers above, they are only experiencing what Maynooth line passengers have for years.

The reality is that subsidies are being cut and withdrawn and the only way to deal with this is to cut costs. This is one element of this programme I would imagine.

"Significantly" cheaper instead of marginally so? How much current are the EMUs drawing in that case? If they aren't burning out their traction motors, they have to be in decent shape. Forcing passengers to be stuffed into a smaller space will be perhaps more detrimental for revenue than having enough space on the train.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Every commuter service has a huge drop in numbers in June-August, Christmas, Easter and mid term weeks as schools knock off and people take off for holidays and that. It would be closer to 25% of a drop taking schools into account.

well the feedback on this thread would suggest otherwise and even if it was 25% how does a 50% reduction in capacity fir with that?

lxflyer wrote: »

The point is running 4 cars is significantly cheaper than running 8 in terms of electricity used.

how much cheaper?
I doubt it's cheaper at all to be perfectly honest. Some more mass to accelerate is all. Never mind the additional staffing costs of splitting and re-coupling costs which last year was given as a reason to alway run six or eight carriages off peak, too costly to bother splitting them for minute leccie savings...

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well the feedback on this thread would suggest otherwise and even if it was 25% how does a 50% reduction in capacity fir with that?

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

Captain Chaos

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

I get 14 DARTs per week at all times of the day, and I can say that between the hours of 7am-10am and 1600-1900 Mon Fri a 4 car DART does not cut it regardless of time of year. It actually makes station stops longer as people have to fight their way in and out of carriages. I have seen many people left on the platform at Harmonstown and Killester in the morning because there was no room on the trains. It's like back in 2003 and 4 when I was going to college, it was every person for themselves on the DARTs in the mornings.

Road traffic drops off big time with the schools off but DART traffic, not so much. Off peak times yeah, there is a drop, but peak times are still more or less the same.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

as opposed to your pulled out of thin air percentages. people left on platforms is hardly anecdotal.

CIE

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What feedback? A few anecdotal posters and a few posts from people who don't use the Dart isn't feedback. Everybody knows that commuter traffic drops big time when schools etc are off; buses, Luas and car traffic are no different.

"Big time" as in exactly half? People don't stop going to work during the summer, and I don't think that many people are unemployed in the Dublin area; those that are out of work may use the DART just as heavily while on a work search (going in person still beats trying to apply online after all).

Also, have people stopped going to the seaside during the summer as well? When schools are off, schoolchildren and young adults do have that time to spare during the week to go to seaside resorts and DART serves several of those; since a lot of bus service to/from such resort towns has been curtailed (especially on the south side), the DART is now the primary non-auto means to get there, and chopping its capacity neatly in half with passengers left on the platform means more cars on the N11, Howth Road et cetera.

steamengine

A four carriage DART at peak time is about as useful as a rolled out condom which has been chopped in two !!!

schemingbohemia

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I get 14 DARTs per week at all times of the day, and I can say that between the hours of 7am-10am and 1600-1900 Mon Fri a 4 car DART does not cut it regardless of time of year. It actually makes station stops longer as people have to fight their way in and out of carriages. I have seen many people left on the platform at Harmonstown and Killester in the morning because there was no room on the trains. It's like back in 2003 and 4 when I was going to college, it was every person for themselves on the DARTs in the mornings.

Road traffic drops off big time with the schools off but DART traffic, not so much. Off peak times yeah, there is a drop, but peak times are still more or less the same.

This I think is the main point - the knock-on effect of people having to sprint up one end of the platform, squeezing on, at each stop an additional minute adds up. My Dart the other morning was 10 minutes late which rarely happens otherwise.

mtjm

I e-mailed IR about this and got this reply

Thank you for your e-mail 13th July 2012,
As a result of the downturn in the economy passenger numbers on DART services have reduced quite significantly, this coupled with increased energy costs has put extreme financial pressures on our services. Iarnród Éireann is committed to retaining the current service levels which we provide to our customers even during these tough financial times however we would be unable to achieve this unless we can significantly reduce our operating costs in line with falling passenger numbers.
An extensive review of all of our services has been carried out and we have identified services where the combined standing and seating capacity enables the train to reduce in size to four carriage trains. It is accepted that some services which are operated by 4 carriage trains are quite busy however we must maximise the carrying capacity of these services as the only alternative is to double the operating costs when increasing the train size for a very small number of passengers.
All trains which have been reduced in size have adequate capacity for the number of passengers travelling when taking into account standing and seated capacity, indeed it is accepted worldwide practice that suburban railway services are heavily loaded at peak times as this usually only occurs for a short period of time when the train is approaching its busy central stations as is the case on the DART Network. I understand customer preference would be to have larger size trains as this provides more comfort on their journey however in these harsh economic times this is something which although desirable is simply not sustainable. Iarnród Éireann will continue to monitor the situation and if it becomes apparent that the current four carriage trains cannot carry the number of passengers wishing to travel we will at that point increase the train in size, in the interim I hope you can appreciate that this action has been taken to ensure continuity of the current DART service levels as the only other alternative to reduce cost would result in service cancellations.
Regards
DART Customer Service