Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

gsxr1 · 14-07-2012 08:14PM #1

As someone who both works and travels on the railway system , im seeing less and less people spend their money on tickets.

Hardly any per-way work or bridge works. Lots of hard working contractors sent to the dole and things left unfinished.

What do they need to do to promote ticket sales again?

We have top class trains and lines . All new and shinny. But if you look into any passing train, it seems to only have OAPs and a scattering of commuters.

Is it the Price, the speed??

I wish the IR top heavy management would do the jobs they applied for and encourage folk back to a great system.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 08:35PM

Hi OP I have also seen what your talking about. Sure on the Dart there does be 6 to 8 carriages late at night and and half the time I see it probably only 20 or so scattered around. the management need to think realistickly and look at the wages cost at their end, staff on the front line have to deal with such aggresive and ignorant people not always but this is increasing so I have noticed. From what I can see its so much cheaper to jump on a coach even though the train would be more comfy and benefit from having toilets.
The price of all travel has got very expensive and they could do some better flexible tickets(better deals).
Don't get why they ever let the freight go seen there recently a private company is now working at that and making good money. To me would make sense to have more freight then more trucks on the road 1 driver understand train expensive to run. Also why did the post run stop?

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 09:02PM

Why can't the big trains travel at high speed as they were designed too might attract people quicker journey

corktina · 14-07-2012 09:13PM

miller50841 wrote: »

Why can't the big trains travel at high speed as they were designed too might attract people quicker journey

too short a journey overall
too many stops
too many speed restrictions
too little investment
wrong type of loco

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 09:19PM

corktina wrote: »

too short a journey overall
too many stops
too many speed restrictions
too little investment
wrong type of loco

Do an express train limit the stops like on Cork line.
How they wrong train they can go a hell of a lot faster.
Very difficult to invest money when there is no money to be got the great folk that are ruining this country are cutting all subvension also the saving on fuel to companies was abolished (Tax)
Speed restrictions ? for what ?

murphaph · 14-07-2012 09:39PM

miller50841 wrote: »

Don't get why they [heavily and militantly unionised dogmatic semi state] ever let the freight go seen there recently a private company is now working at that and making good money.

The answer is in the question. CIE can't succeed because of its very make up. Ireland is a country that would actually benefit from a so called public service being handed over to the evil capitalists because CIE have never run their public service for the benefit of the public, but rather as a huge jobs club at taxpayers' expense.

I'd rather the state paid a subvention to a private operator(s) to run trains that meet actual passenger demand than run their own inept version of a railway.

murphaph · 14-07-2012 09:47PM

corktina wrote: »

too short a journey overall
too many stops
too many speed restrictions
too little investment
wrong type of loco

I would say the bit in bold is not quite right. They had plenty of money pumped into them but they chose to buy new rolling stock and scrap some perfectly servicable stuff (stuff that is still running in GB). They should have invested first and foremost in the permanent way. Dublin-Cork and Dublin-border should be 125mph throughout (we don't need anything faster on our small island, genuine 125mph running would be a different world) and the remainder of the routes to Galway and Limerick should be at least 100mph throughout.

Rebuilding (not just relaying with light CWR) the permanent way to proper standards would have allowed them to keep running loco hauled stuff (some derivation of the UK HST or better yet an electrified equivalent) without destroying the trackwork. The UK and Europe can run heavy locos without wrecking the track because the permanent way has been rebuilt from the foundations up.

IE are a not a proper railway. They have no idea how to effectively run one.

murphaph · 14-07-2012 09:48PM

miller50841 wrote: »

Speed restrictions ? for what ?

Because the lines are generally substandard because IE never rebuilt them properly, just relaid them with new track.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 09:59PM

Here a chance for some of you that have good ideas that actually could be inforced and save money you never know someone may listen and try to make it work.

1 thing never works is to privatise everthing as everyone in this country is set on making it a reallity.
What should be done is let a private operator in that will actually run and manage things to the absolute best it can but that the Irish(state) keeps it as theirs.

Don't honestly see any company wanting to take over a company like IR as it makes such a huge loss, unless there is somewhere someone has a real suggestion to fix that problem...

JeffK88 · 14-07-2012 10:00PM

I have stopped using the train due to the price of tickets always creeping up. At the current rate of IE Ireland will be without a railway service in 20yrs. Cancelled Dart Underground projects would have been an incentive for getting the train but knowing IE the price of a ticket would rise to an outrageous price. IE tickets are dearer than catching a flight to europe in some cases . Its nearly cheaper to fly from Dublin to Cork. Yes they are making a loss , but raising the prices of tickets will not help/ people are strapped for cash as it is and when there is a Bus Service that are much cheaper more and more will stop using the train. IE need to get the finger out and start operating a railway not Thomas the tank engine land !

steamengine · 14-07-2012 10:05PM

gsxr1 wrote: »

As someone who both works and travels on the railway system , im seeing less and less people spend their money on tickets.

Hardly any per-way work or bridge works. Lots of hard working contractors sent to the dole and things left unfinished.

What do they need to do to promote ticket sales again?

We have top class trains and lines . All new and shinny. But if you look into any passing train, it seems to only have OAPs and a scattering of commuters.

Is it the Price, the speed??

I wish the IR top heavy management would do the jobs they applied for and encourage folk back to a great system.

That Irish Rail could do better rather than 'is failing so badly' would be a fairer thread title IMO. I believe Irish Rail have done a good job down through the years, and indeed still do, in providing a country wide rail service in the 'social' context.

The lack of patronage currently is due to the deep recession that is afflicting the country in general, there is simply a lack of disposable income around. Fare promotions / revised pricing will work to a degree, but if the number of people wishing to travel is down then that exercise will be ring-fenced anyway.

jimmycrackcorm · 14-07-2012 10:06PM

It's cheaper to drive from Dublin to Cork than take the train and that's before you even consider multiple passengers.

Judgement Day · 14-07-2012 10:17PM

steamengine wrote: »

That Irish Rail could do better rather than 'is failing so badly' would be a fairer thread title IMO. I believe Irish Rail have done a good job down through the years, and indeed still do, in providing a country wide rail service in the 'social' context.

The lack of patronage currently is due to the deep recession that is afflicting the country in general, there is simply a lack of disposable income around. Fare promotions / revised pricing will work to a degree, but if the number of people wishing to travel is down then that exercise will be ring-fenced anyway.

No! steamengine - you're normally a bastion of sanity on the C+T forum but not this time. CIE/IE have not done a good job down the years - they have, like Nero, fiddled while Rome burned. That we have any railways at all is despite CIE/IE rather than because of them. I really can't be bothered to list all their many failings again as they have been stated on the these forums ad nauseum.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 10:17PM

JeffK88 wrote: »

I have stopped using the train due to the price of tickets always creeping up. At the current rate of IE Ireland will be without a railway service in 20yrs. Cancelled Dart Underground projects would have been an incentive for getting the train but knowing IE the price of a ticket would rise to an outrageous price. IE tickets are dearer than catching a flight to europe in some cases . Its nearly cheaper to fly from Dublin to Cork. Yes they are making a loss , but raising the prices of tickets will not help/ people are strapped for cash as it is and when there is a Bus Service that are much cheaper more and more will stop using the train. IE need to get the finger out and start operating a railway not Thomas the tank engine land !

Oh I understand I said they have to do something about the price for a ticket we need to start thinking different in this country. Fuel is too high and to much tax and vat etc.. The price of transport needs to be lowered say for argument sake fare is now €4 each way lower this to say €2.50 and maybe more would travel which in turn would bring in more revenue. A full train or bus is better then a half empty one. The other problem is of course less are working but see a lot more with free travel that also has to be hurting the money thats taken in as there is a deal as to how much is paid for person travelling

Victor · 14-07-2012 10:31PM

Yes, there are problems, but:

The economy is in a hole and people aren't travelling as much as they used to.

The motorways have taken away part of the market.

Too much was spent of track and trains, and certain vanity projects and not enough on structures and the removal of bottle necks.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's cheaper to drive from Dublin to Cork than take the train and that's before you even consider multiple passengers.

But you need to have a car and pay all its costs in the first place.

JeffK88 wrote: »

IE tickets are dearer than catching a flight to europe in some cases .

You need to compare like with like. Buy in advance and you can get cheap tickets.

Flying to Edinburgh with Ryanair in 4 weeks times is €19.99 single (Excluding admin fee of £6/€6 per person/per sector (if applicable)), but tomorrow is €110.24 single (Excluding admin fee of £6/€6 per person/per sector (if applicable)). The comparable prices for Dublin-Cork are are €19.99 and €32.99 single (excl. €2 transaction and €1 credit card fee).

Its nearly cheaper to fly from Dublin to Cork.

Would that be in your private jet? As there are no scheduled flights.

Yes they are making a loss , but raising the prices of tickets will not help/ people are strapped for cash as it is and when there is a Bus Service that are much cheaper more and more will stop using the train.

Some of the recent fare increases need to be seen for what they are - the passenger paying more of the price and the state paying less of the price.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 10:59PM

Any ideas of helping rather then putting down?

This is not a dig at anyone all have fair points.

davidlacey · 14-07-2012 11:16PM

I have to agree with alot of people here, Irish rail have been the main reason for their own downfall. Yes, we are in a recession and less people are travelling due to decreased disposable income but its more about the inconvence of travelling on a network that is not countrywide and not convienent. The stations have been upgraded in places but look at the likes of Bray, Kildare, Dun Laoghaire which are major commuter spots, while work has been done on them, i would not find them the most comfortable or appealing on a wet day waiting on a dart or commuter service to arrive, speaking from experience and would much prefer just hopping into a car. Yes the rolling stock is nice in most cases and we have new track and extended platforms but i really cannot see how that would be attractive to people who have many choices of transport. The rail is competing against a whole new rolling stock of bus eireann coaches which are more direct, more comfortable, more reliable, faster and have full wifi available.

We are speaking about a company who cannot hold on to freight contracts in the celtic Tiger and have a willingness to overload any of the remaining ones with any chance possible, i really at this stage would prefer a private operator for both commuter and freight transport as while this is a public company it is not accountable enough and since the 60's have streamlined our rail system to a bare minimum for the one reason, maximise profits which they still unable to do.

gsxr1 · 14-07-2012 11:20PM

Faster and cheaper are two words that spring to mind.

Faster wont happen as the budgets for rusty bridges has been cut to ribbons(speed drops)

And cheaper wont happen as the government wont spend what they dont have.

I also think the rail needs to be promoted better .. TV and radio. Many people think our trains are smelly, old and worn.
When infact they are clean new and fast. Truly the most comfortable form or public transport.

I would expect posters here to know the pros of the sector, but many of the public dont.

steamengine · 14-07-2012 11:31PM

miller50841 wrote: »

Any ideas of helping rather then putting down?

This is not a dig at anyone all have fair points.

To fill off peak DARTs they could display, at the major Dublin city stations, prominent large posters of Killiney Bay, Bray Head, the Sugarloaf, and the tunnel system South of Bray, which was pointed up by Michael Portillo as being one of the most scenic rail journeys on these islands. How are tourists meant to know about this unless they are told. The older now disbanded railway companies used to engage in this type of advertising as a matter of course. An off-peak DART journey to Bray or Greystones can be a very pleasurable experience. Here's a short video of my own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIOAtyJNnmE

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 11:33PM

Don't know if advertising would do it seams funny when see dbus advertising on tv when really think everyone knows the bus is there.

As other poster said stations were done up but look in bits now sure most now have no toilets I think that is crazy.
I have had pleasure :rolleyes: of been in them before they were shut up in bits of course thanks to scum and drug users.
There needs to be proper facilities and noticed also none of the platforms meet the train access points usually a big gap and step at times this even at new platforms bit strange me thinks...

Markcheese · 14-07-2012 11:40PM

Why do we need a rail service ? Apart from commuter services... I mean motorways/ mainroads mean coaches could/can go most places quickly and comfortably.... With a lot more flexibility ... Should the intercity service go the way of the canals, in Ireland at any rate.....
Or should IE just run the permanent way, and farm out running the trains to who ever can make the service work and pay ......

davidlacey · 14-07-2012 11:42PM

While promotions are all well and good would a lower off peak ticket price not be a good idea to fill trains especially for people looking to go out in dublin city at night and the likes, I think especially in dart stations as the previous post says just better facilities such as a basic amenity such as a toilet and a nice floral arrangement will improve customer loyalty and of course an on time train or two

davidlacey · 14-07-2012 11:45PM

Markcheese wrote: »

Why do we need a rail service ? Apart from commuter services... I mean motorways/ mainroads mean coaches could/can go most places quickly and comfortably.... With a lot more flexibility ... Should the intercity service go the way of the canals, in Ireland at any rate.....
Or should IE just run the permanent way, and farm out running the trains to who ever can make the service work and pay ......

If we want to meet our kyoto targets, we really could do with a rail service.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 11:49PM

I understand road is more flexible but would a faster train and a local proper bus link be better then running numerous amounts of bus companies along the same route as the train.

1 main point is train is safer.
Another thing that needs to change is the amount of anti social a** holes out there they actually frighten a lot of people from traveling on public transport.

miller50841 · 14-07-2012 11:53PM

I've noticed smaller amounts of carriages at busy times wonder are they going to take on the china way of travel and push everyone on till the doors can close bit like sardines in a can:D

mlumley · 15-07-2012 12:10AM

I think cheaper fares and more services is the answer. On a recent (4 weeks ago) holiday to UK, I got the train to London from Bognor Regis, near Southampton. Just after rush hour, 2 kids 2 adults. £8 each return. But, as kids go free, it was just £16 day return. I dont think you can get from Clonmel to Waterford for that.

The service from Clonmel is so bad that in 17 years of living here, I have never been on it, but my daughter has, and she says its slow and infreaquent.

Irish railways are run for the benifit of the staff, not the customers.

CIE · 15-07-2012 12:26AM

gsxr1 wrote: »

As someone who both works and travels on the railway system , im seeing less and less people spend their money on tickets.

Hardly any per-way work or bridge works. Lots of hard working contractors sent to the dole and things left unfinished.

What do they need to do to promote ticket sales again?

We have top class trains and lines . All new and shiny. But if you look into any passing train, it seems to only have OAPs and a scattering of commuters.

Is it the Price, the speed??

I wish the IR top-heavy management would do the jobs they applied for and encourage folk back to a great system.

You've identified part of the problem. Next thing is, who made it so top-heavy? and what is their real agenda?

People seem to be forgetting that the government is exerting way too much power in transport policy. They do all the roads and all the rail. That's called a conflict of interest. Same thing as happened in the 1960s. Thanks to that conflict of interest, the railways in Ireland have never gotten out of the middle of the 20th century, not even the fastest railway in the country (Dublin-Cork, stuck at no faster than 100 mph where conditions permit; meanwhile, other countries have had 125 mph on traditional alignments since the 1970s, and 100 mph was a benchmark achieved by steam engines in the early 20th century). Railfreight has the potential to be very profitable, but since government distorts costs versus benefits and nobody at IE is pushed to really make money, things are glossed over (after all, the same government that has to invest in the railways also invests in roads; conflict of interest again).

gsxr1 · 15-07-2012 12:27AM

miller50841 wrote: »

Don't know if advertising would do it seams funny when see dbus advertising on tv when really think everyone knows the bus is there.

As other poster said stations were done up but look in bits now sure most now have no toilets I think that is crazy.
I have had pleasure :rolleyes: of been in them before they were shut up in bits of course thanks to scum and drug users.
There needs to be proper facilities and noticed also none of the platforms meet the train access points usually a big gap and step at times this even at new platforms bit strange me thinks...

I respectfully disagree.

I personally know all sorts of things are there. Say Ford cars.

But I dont know how good they are.
Advertising the good points of them to me would draw me in. And compared to the money wastefully used in the railway, I would think advertising on TV/radio would be a good use of money. I works for every major product or service in the world.

Asses on seats.

gsxr1 · 15-07-2012 12:37AM

CIE wrote: »

You've identified part of the problem. Next thing is, who made it so top-heavy? and what is their real agenda?

People seem to be forgetting that the government is exerting way too much power in transport policy. They do all the roads and all the rail. That's called a conflict of interest. Same thing as happened in the 1960s. Thanks to that conflict of interest, the railways in Ireland have never gotten out of the middle of the 20th century, not even the fastest railway in the country (Dublin-Cork, stuck at no faster than 100 mph where conditions permit; meanwhile, other countries have had 125 mph on traditional alignments since the 1970s, and 100 mph was a benchmark achieved by steam engines in the early 20th century).

Next thing in my opinion is instead of laying off the men on the ground, start laying off the guys who have nothing to do at the top. And who also get paid a hell of a lot more.

I burst my balls at all hours of the night and day on the railway for a modest wage at best. A job I love. Where has it got me.

Hatch 3 on Monday morning. The dole.

Its quite sickening. But hell . Thats the way of the world.
I need to see the guys at the top do their jobs. Get the custom and get peeps back on the rails. Then I can go back to doing what I do well.

miller50841 · 15-07-2012 12:41AM

But they do advertise ? maybe just not enough I get what your saying.

Trains and busses need better ventilation every time on one that has a window they are all shut or if open someone gets on and shuts them.
I find then it gets very stuffy whether cold or hot..

Is there a reason for such big gaps between trains and platform?

CIE · 15-07-2012 12:52AM

miller50841 wrote: »

But they do advertise ? maybe just not enough I get what your saying.

Trains and buses need better ventilation every time on one that has a window they are all shut or if open someone gets on and shuts them.
I find then it gets very stuffy whether cold or hot..

Is there a reason for such big gaps between trains and platform?

Advertising goes only so far. If word of mouth works against the advertising, then false advertising will hurt more than helping.

Most trains nowadays have air-conditioning I thought? If it's stuffy in a railway carriage, then the climate control system is not being maintained.

As far as gaps, looks to me like IE is not ordering rolling stock that can take advantage of the loading gauge. Older railway cars used to be almost as wide as some US passenger carriages (e.g. Park Royals at 10' 2" or 3099 mm); most modern stock is narrower (e.g. the 22000 class width is 2840 mm or 9' 4") and have the doors at the "quarter points" instead of the ends of the cars (except the 22000 class and Mark 4), and that makes it harder to board at curved platforms.

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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