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orange provocation

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    #272
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You can, but you are as transparent as a newly washed window.

    Thanks - clarity is always good.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Is the stated aim of the OO, to 'protect Protestantism from religious despotism' got anything to do with breeding the type of individual that stood outside that church?
    Sectarianism needs collusion to survive, your belittling of it is the same strategy that has been used by the Orange infested powers that be for years in the North. But it is coming to an end, the world can see what is going on here. The bigots have alienated those that they so want to be, first (the British) and now they are putting their leaders (the UUP and DUP) out on a political limb where they will have to deny them. The moderates in the OO have jumped the ship long ago. What we are witnessing is the last cries of officially sanctioned sectarianism.

    Sectarianism requires nothing more than a clique to survive. The OO has no exclusivity on sectarianism, and lots of perfectly pleasant citizens exercise their sectarianism without offending anyone - the entire (current - agreed) political structure of NI is based on sectarianism and few care.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You just don't get what is going on. The OO are forcing reaction right across the political sphere. What we see on the streets is just the tip of the iceberg. They are holed below the water too, they are masters of political isolation.
    About the only thing that would bring me on to the streets of Dublin would be to protest these neanderthals getting to march in the capital. That would probably be the biggest mistake the OO ever made in a long line of mistakes.

    I think it's you who's missing the point. The point of marching in Dublin is to provoke the sort of response you're offering up on a plate. They win again.


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    #273
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »




    Sectarianism requires nothing more than a clique to survive. The OO has no exclusivity on sectarianism, and lots of perfectly pleasant citizens exercise their sectarianism without offending anyone - the entire (current - agreed) political structure of NI is based on sectarianism and few care.

    Whataboutery will not make your point. The thread is about state sponsored sectarianism
    The stated aims of orangism are sectarian, that's the bottom line as to why they exist. Pretending this is some sort of cultural or traditional right is wrong and has always been wrong. What the OO do every July is chip away at any political resolve to defend those misguided 'rights'. Events such as those outside the church and their inability to control rampant triumphalism is forcing them more and more out to the political wilderness. Their poitical friends will no longer be able to defend them in the new society. If you can't see that through your newly cleaned windows then you are politically blind or worse, being willfully contentious to get your own sectarian jollies.


    I think it's you who's missing the point. The point of marching in Dublin is to provoke the sort of response you're offering up on a plate. They win again.
    Thing is, and the OO just don't get this, the world, thanks to Sky, CNN, camera phones etc, will see, as they have done for many years now, just who is causing the provocation.


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    #274
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    karma_ wrote: »
    Tommy clearly stated he was talking about Belfast, he did not mention Britain, so just why the fcuk are you posting this garbage?
    because you havent been reading his posts,let me give you a hint,british colonies,british/ american invaders, nothing to do with belfast,read the posts ,i will be asking questions later,


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    #275
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Whataboutery will not make your point. The thread is about state sponsored sectarianism

    No whataboutery here. State sponsored? I don't think so.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The stated aims of orangism are sectarian, that's the bottom line as to why they exist. Pretending this is some sort of cultural or traditional right is wrong and has always been wrong. What the OO do every July is chip away at any political resolve to defend those misguided 'rights'. Events such as those outside the church and their inability to control rampant triumphalism is forcing them more and more out to the political wilderness. Their poitical friends will no longer be able to defend them in the new society. If you can't see that through your newly cleaned windows then you are politically blind or worse, being willfully contentious to get your own sectarian jollies.

    The majority of parades pass off without problems - regardless of the nature of the Order - maybe you should clean your own windows.

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Thing is, and the OO just don't get this, the world, thanks to Sky, CNN, camera phones etc, will see, as they have done for many years now, just who is causing the provocation.

    Who exactly do you think has missed out on the provocative nature of the contentious parades up til now?


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    #276
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    I have to laugh at the irony of OO members playing the famine song in Ireland. Go home? This is home, fcukin' dimwits!
    In a statement the PSNI said: "During a parade through the area it was observed that two bands continued to play whilst stationary outside the church. Although it was deemed that this was not in breach of a Parades Commission determination, officers liaised with parade stewards to negotiate an end to this action.

    "Police evidence gatherers were also tasked to the area to monitor and record the incident.

    "Officers intervened when a member of the public privately recording the incident was approached by a group of men. Throughout this incident police worked closely with stewards and organisers to resolve the situation peacefully.

    "A considerable amount of footage has been recorded and will be studied closely. If any criminal offences are detected a full and thorough investigation will be carried out."

    In a statement, Belfast County Grand Lodge said: "The institution reviews all parades and will take any issues into account in that review."

    On the above, if circling outside a Catholic church playing sectarian muck is "not in breach of a Parades Commission determination", then there is something seriously wrong in how the Parades Commission operate. Surely these "parades" should only be allowed on the basis that no behaviour takes place which is likely to cause provocation in an already delicate situation?

    I have no issue with peoples' democratic right to march and protest - it's part of living in a democracy - even though I personally hold deep suspicion of the OO as a body. But the kind of behaviour seen on those videos is completely unacceptable in a modern society, and in my mind should result in that particular lodge being banned from marching for a period of time. Do the Parades Commission enforce that sort of ban when marches get out of hand? If that carry on is allowed, it will continue to happen every year.

    Not knowing how the OO operate with regards to policing their own marches, does anyone know if they have taken action before against particular lodges behaving like that in "parades"? It sure does their public image no good whatsoever.


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    #277
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    State sponsored? I don't think so.
    Blinkers on again, the OO have been protected by the state for years, until the British where made to realise just what type of an organisation they are.



    The majority of parades pass off without problems - regardless of the nature of the Order - maybe you should clean your own windows.

    And the point missed by the brains trust of the OO is that everytime they try to force a march, they make the likelihood that they will be celebrating the 12th in isolated environments even more likely. And the rot will continue, even they will realise the pointlessness of it all, in a secular society and just go to church as private citizens like everybody else.


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    #278
    johndoc
    Registered Users Posts: 141 ✭✭johndoc


    Provocation !!??! Surely not. They just want to march their traditional route without trying to inflame or antagonise any particular group or individuals.

    Oh. Hang on......

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18814800

    Orange Order bus marchers past quiet part of route in order to get to Ardoyne flashpoint on time.


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    #279
    questionmark?
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    I hope rangers fans enjoy singing this song in the Scottish 3rd division:D


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    #280
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Blinkers on again, the OO have been protected by the state for years, until the British where made to realise just what type of an organisation they are.


    So, basically you're talking through your hat?


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And the point missed by the brains trust of the OO is that everytime they try to force a march, they make the likelihood that they will be celebrating the 12th in isolated environments even more likely. And the rot will continue, even they will realise the pointlessness of it all, in a secular society and just go to church as private citizens like everybody else.

    Isolated environments? The number of parades was typical, with the usual numbers participating - it's as popular as it's been for years - 19 major parades with the usual suspect flashpoint. Looks like business as usual to me - not any rot. Most people who attend the parades have no interest in provoking a reaction.


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    #281
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    So, basically you're talking through your hat?
    Does the existence of a 'Parades Commission' signify anything to you? Or is your only answer going to be that given by those living in denial? Parades where allowed where ever the OO decided for years, and the British being the irresponsible government that they where turned a blind eye. That is no longer the case, thanks to the efforts of some. Because the right to live without these inflamatory and provocative parades of bigotry was won by a certain organisation, southeners, as usual, have been slow to call the OO out for what it is, in case they are identified as supporters of that organisation. The British however have been won over, and if the OO was vapourised in the morning, not a tear would be shed, in Buckingham Palace or Downing Street. They are a thorn in the side of progress.




    Isolated environments? The number of parades was typical, with the usual numbers participating - it's as popular as it's been for years - 19 major parades with the usual suspect flashpoint. Looks like business as usual to me - not any rot. Most people who attend the parades have no interest in provoking a reaction.
    Still in denial, the moderates have left the OO and want nothing to do with them, they bite their tongues (out of understandable historical loyalty) in outright condemnation but the day isn't too far away. The 'fields' are increasingly being left to the hardliners and neanderthals.


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    #282
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    alastair wrote: »
    So, basically you're talking through your hat?





    Isolated environments? The number of parades was typical, with the usual numbers participating - it's as popular as it's been for years - 19 major parades with the usual suspect flashpoint. Looks like business as usual to me - not any rot. Most people who attend the parades have no interest in provoking a reaction.

    I see you're from Dublin, so I guess it's understandable your perception of the twelfth is somewhat removed from reality.

    The truth from someone who has lived there for pretty much all his life, is that the twelfth has diminished in scale for the last 20 years, year on year. The whole province used to go on complete lockdown and now it's not nearly as bad as it was, unless of course you happen to be in one of the contentious areas, which thankfully I'm not.


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    #283
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    The OO might find some sympathy if they kept their marching and band playing to where it was welcome. They don't. Displays of triumphalism and intimidation don't really work unless you've got enemies to remind.

    And the irony of playing of an anti-Irish song (against Catholic Scots of Irish origin), well just breathtaking :confused:


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    #284
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    alastair wrote: »
    No whataboutery here. State sponsored? I don't think so.

    It was sponsored in 2009. I can't guarantee about 2012.
    LINK -
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sEI9N76Wrb0/UACFk0SY6YI/AAAAAAAAFpA/Dqm4woP3BPE/s698/Brning%2520Polish%2520And%2520Irish%2520Flags%2520By%2520British%2520BELFAST%2520UNITED%2520KINGDOM%252011-12%2520JULY%25202012%2520IMAGE%252012.jpg


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    #285
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Does the existence of a 'Parades Commission' signify anything to you? Or is your only answer going to be that given by those living in denial? Parades where allowed where ever the OO decided for years, and the British being the irresponsible government that they where turned a blin eye. That is no longer the case, thanks to the efforts of some. Because the right to live without these inflamatory and provocative parades of bigotry was won by a certain organisation, southeners, as usual, have been slow to call the OO out for what it is. The British however have been won over, and if the OO was vapourised in the morning, not a tear would be shed, in Buckingham Palace or Downing Street. They are a torn in the side of progress.


    So - just to confirm - the establishment of the Parades Commission is proof that the OO is/was 'state-sponsored'? Okaay. :rolleyes:


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Still in denial, the moderates have left the OO and want nothing to do with them, they bite their tongues (out of understandable historical loyalty) in outright condemnation but the day isn't too far away. The 'fields' are increasingly being left to the hardliners and neanderthals.

    Nonsense. The OO has hung on to it's core constituency - conservative protestantism - their numbers (and decline) remain closely tied to the broader religious participation in Ulster protestantism. The parades reflect far more than your flashpoint neanderthals (who have always been part of their fold).


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    #286
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    PauloMN wrote: »
    I have to laugh at the irony of OO members playing the famine song in Ireland. Go home? This is home, fcukin' dimwits!



    On the above, if circling outside a Catholic church playing sectarian muck is "not in breach of a Parades Commission determination", then there is something seriously wrong in how the Parades Commission operate. Surely these "parades" should only be allowed on the basis that no behaviour takes place which is likely to cause provocation in an already delicate situation?

    I have no issue with peoples' democratic right to march and protest - it's part of living in a democracy - even though I personally hold deep suspicion of the OO as a body. But the kind of behaviour seen on those videos is completely unacceptable in a modern society, and in my mind should result in that particular lodge being banned from marching for a period of time. Do the Parades Commission enforce that sort of ban when marches get out of hand? If that carry on is allowed, it will continue to happen every year.

    Not knowing how the OO operate with regards to policing their own marches, does anyone know if they have taken action before against particular lodges behaving like that in "parades"? It sure does their public image no good whatsoever.

    With regards to your first comment.They are saying Northern Ireland is part of Britain, and if the Catholics want to be Irish they should **** off back to the republic of Ireland.

    I lived in Northern Ireland long enough to see that there are many people who consider it to be in no way, shape or form, Ireland.


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    #287
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    It was sponsored in 2009. I can't guarantee about 2012.
    LINK -
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-sEI9N76Wrb0/UACFk0SY6YI/AAAAAAAAFpA/Dqm4woP3BPE/s698/Brning%2520Polish%2520And%2520Irish%2520Flags%2520By%2520British%2520BELFAST%2520UNITED%2520KINGDOM%252011-12%2520JULY%25202012%2520IMAGE%252012.jpg

    Belfast City Council isn't any state - and the 12th bonfires that are supported by their Bonfire management programme are funded by the EU - not the UK.


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    #288
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    karma_ wrote: »
    I see you're from Dublin, so I guess it's understandable your perception of the twelfth is somewhat removed from reality.

    I've lived in NI for years, am still a regular visitor, and my partner is from Belfast. I'm well aware of the reality.


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    #289
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    I hoped for a constructive conversation here but all I see is useless verbal diarrhea ;/ (with some exclusions)
    Sorry for being honest.
    Since it is OK to burn sovereign country’s national flag, then lets rock-n-roll !!!
    Let’s get some “matches” and go for a walk.
    This rule must work both ways.

    Let me know when you grow up.


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    #290
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    I hoped for a constructive conversation here but all I see is useless verbal diarrhea ;/ (with some exclusions)
    Sorry for being honest.
    Since it is OK to burn sovereign country’s national flag, then lets rock-n-roll !!!
    Let’s get some “matches” and go for a walk.
    This rule must work both ways.

    Let me know when you grow up.

    Best of luck with that.

    Remember those top tips for distinguishing marching band members from policemen. It might save potential confusion.


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    #291
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,369 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Gummy Panda wrote: »
    Most of us wouldn't experience it unless we went up north. You should pull those guys up on that.

    It would be a waste of time, what's the point of trying to reason with someone who hates the fact that you breath the same air as them.


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    #292
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    alastair wrote: »
    Best of luck with that.

    Remember those top tips for distinguishing marching band members from policemen. It might save potential confusion.

    He's Polish, I think we can afford him the benefit of the doubt on that front, so no need to be as condescending as that.

    Classy though, you have no trouble mocking a Foreign national for making an easy mistake but you point blank to refuse to mock those that would burn the Flag of his nation, and indeed your own.


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    #293
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    It would be a waste of time, what's the point of trying to reason with someone who hates the fact that you breath the same air as them.

    You are right. There are better things to do in life.


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    #294
    Hashy Houdini
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭Hashy Houdini


    Hopefully Tommy's highlighting of this flag burning might stir up a quicker response from the authorities in charge.

    The Parades Commission seems very ineffective if it allows the activities mentioned in the OP to continue especially by stating that they weren't doing d anything wrong as per the guidelines in place.

    I for one am glad I don't have to deal with this sh** on an annual basis and I'm very dismayed that the Polish are getting dragged into this.


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    #295
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    karma_ wrote: »
    He's Polish, I think we can afford him the benefit of the doubt on that front, so no need to be as condescending as that.

    Classy though, you have no trouble mocking a Foreign national for making an easy mistake but you point blank to refuse to mock those that would burn the Flag of his nation, and indeed your own.

    So, there is someone with a bit of brain in a sculp

    What I am trying to say is that we all have joined one big EU family which rather than “stick a middle finger in yr face” try to talk and respect each other rights, believes, opinion, etc.

    I just came up with analogy that for us, Polish, people who have nothing to do with the orange day; act of burning our flags, posters of our politicians in numerous places across Belfast was like “a slap in a face” AND YOU ALL KNOW IT and you did it on purpose to YET again humiliate us.

    Evidence - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1yUR_5fxeg

    For a visitor (I can’t feel here like “At Home”) it was Sectarian / Nationalistic ORGY; full of hate, injured people, mess on the streets, hurt feelings, damaged property.
    That is how it looks like from outside of the box m8.

    I rest my case…


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    #296
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    So - just to confirm - the establishment of the Parades Commission is proof that the OO is/was 'state-sponsored'? Okaay. :rolleyes:

    Okay, be as willfully dense as you want, to stay in denial.
    The Parade Commission was the British Governments answer to calls for the activities of the OO to be curtailed. The OO refuse to recognise that Commission despite not being able to do anything about their rulings.
    And tell us this, are you saying that all of those at Drumcree and Ardoyne flashpoints are the neanderthals of the OO order....are you sure about that? ;)




    Nonsense. The OO has hung on to it's core constituency - conservative protestantism - their numbers (and decline) remain closely tied to the broader religious participation in Ulster protestantism. The parades reflect far more than your flashpoint neanderthals (who have always been part of their fold).
    Head in the sand denial, again. I live on the border, the buses leaving this town and immediate hinterland, on the 12th numbered in the twenties, just a few years ago. No bus leaves the town today. And that trend can be seen all along the border where orangism was once at it's most entrenched and triumphalist, for obvious reasons.
    Always remembering that membership never reflected the amount of people who turned up for a day out, the decline in membership is severe in some areas and steady in others, nowhere is there growth. That has nothing to do with the decline in religious participation. The OO has nothing to offer those who want to live in peace, and the border areas are at peace.


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    #297
    ukonline
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭ukonline


    -

    Hopefully in a hundred years time, it'll all have boiled down to people drinking Fanta on the 12th July, and not knowing why.

    -


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    #298
    3ndahalfof6
    Registered Users Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    ukonline wrote: »
    -

    Hopefully in a hundred years time, it'll all have boiled down to people drinking Fanta on the 12th July, and not knowing why.

    -

    it wont matter in a hundred years as someone else will own the country that was once known as Ireland.


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    #299
    OneOfThem Stumbled
    Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭OneOfThem Stumbled


    HoggyRS wrote: »
    They are absolute scum of the earth. Is this an example of the "culture" they expect us to respect?

    I could catch any words. Were they really "famine songs"?

    ...

    Actually, what on earth is a Famine song, OP? :confused:


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    #300
    OneOfThem Stumbled
    Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭OneOfThem Stumbled


    ukonline wrote: »
    -

    Hopefully in a hundred years time, it'll all have boiled down to people drinking Fanta on the 12th July, and not knowing why.

    -

    Way ony drank Montan Dew on the Falls Road! :mad:


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    #301
    PauloMN
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 10,859 Mod ✭✭✭✭PauloMN


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    With regards to your first comment.They are saying Northern Ireland is part of Britain, and if the Catholics want to be Irish they should **** off back to the republic of Ireland.

    That's incorrect. The famine song lyrics are "the famine is over, why don't you go home". It is aimed at Glasgow's Irish descendants, telling them that they, as a race, should go back to Ireland because the famine is over now.

    The irony of the OO playing this on their flutes - in Ireland - is completely lost on the fcukwits.
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I lived in Northern Ireland long enough to see that there are many people who consider it to be in no way, shape or form, Ireland.

    Maybe so, but they are sadly deluded, and they are probably the people who refuse to accept the progress and change that there's been in NI. Like it or not, it isn't Britain. Even under UK rule, NI will never be like Britain - it will always have a huge part of the population who consider themselves Irish, and a large Irish culture just like the rest of the island. In the same way, I can never see the six counties being "fully" Irish, even in a United Ireland. There will always have to be a political recognition of both cultures in NI, no matter whose jurisdiction it falls under. The sooner people realise that, the sooner we can all get on with our lives and leave this sectarian nonsense behind in the past where it belongs.

    It's the simple concepts of recognition and respect - recognising different cultures even if you don't agree with their beliefs, and respecting peoples' rights to practice their religions/cultures once they are doing so in a manner that is respectful of others.


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