Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

ncmc · 11-07-2012 10:51AM

menoscemo wrote: »

It makes sense alright

The one piece of advice I would give you is to actively slow right down the very short runs each week. If I am not wrong you have a very short run early in the week (after the LSR) and another short one between the pace run and the LSR?

Try to do these way slower than normal, maybe 10.30-11 min/mile, thus making them a 'recovery run'. They will have the effect of freshening up your legs and making them ready for the next hard run. These runs should feel like a pleasant little jaunt not much more taxing than a brisk walk.
I am training for a 3 hr marathon (6:50/mile) and would still do my recovery runs at anywhere between 8:40-9:20/mile. Guys like Krusty clown who run 2;40 marathons (6;10/mile would do recovery runs at 8 min/mile and slower.

Great advice Meno, that makes perfect sense. At the moment, I am running my short runs at 'easy' pace which I sort of picked up as being whatever felt easy at the time. I should really get into the mindset of them being 'recovery' rather than 'easy'.

I hate getting bogged down about time etc and I know a lot of the other newbies are getting similarly obsessed! One of the things Hal Higdon really hammers home in his book is not to worry about time for your first marathon, I think I need to take his advice more and chill the hell out a bit!

rasher_m · 11-07-2012 12:47PM

menoscemo wrote: »

This was posted on the DCM Facebook page last night:
http://connect.garmin.com/course/1620172
Looks like a really tough slog between miles 4 and 5...

Are we talking a tougher climb than the GIR?
How many feet is estimated as being a very steep hill by the way...in running terms?

moggie4000 · 11-07-2012 01:02PM

Hi all,

i have started my marathon training this week. I'm doing the training schedule from the DCM website - 4 - 4.45 Marathon training. Hopefully going to complete it in under 4 hours. We'll see...

I have a couple of questions:

It mentions easy fartlek on the schedule, what is this? like a recovery run?

Also, i will be running 6 days per week for the next 16 weeks, should there be more rest days? I have run 5 mile, 10 mile, half marathon last year and 10k this year so not a complete novice.

Moggie

La Di Da · 11-07-2012 01:39PM

RayCun wrote: »

They guy who wrote it is very fast and was planning his own race, so it was at the level of detail he'd use. My own breakdown would be simpler -

The first few miles are slightly uphill, but you don't notice because it's so early
As you're leaving Phoenix Park there's a nice downhill
But on the other side of the river there's a steepish uphill to compensate (as you pass the War Memorial Gardens and run under the road)
Next couple of miles are fine
The long stretch from Dolphin's Barn to Walkinstown is a bit of a pain. No turns in the road, very slight incline, you might have the wind against you, and the road is narrow and crowded. Not a pleasant run.
But once you get to halfway, the next few miles are lovely. The number of spectators increases a lot, the roads are flat and tree-lined, it's easy running.
Get to Milltown, and you have a downhill to run beside the Dodder for a while (a good spot to arrange support because it's by the LUAS line)
But then there's an uphill again as you leave the Dodder. People are starting to flag here.
Then the toughest stretch of the course - back down to the Dodder and a long drag up through Clonskeagh, ending in a short but steepish uphill. This is about mile 20, and there will be a lot of people walking here. (But not you guys, because you'll have paced yourselves properly!)
Fosters Avenue is a long downhill, and this is where you can start counting yourselves home. There are no more real hills (just the UCD flyover and a bridge over the canal), there are loads of crowds, and there's just 10k to go.

Thanks for this RayCun. I'll focus on your summary I think! Still can't really get my head round running 26+ miles. Just taking it training day by training day for now. The discussions / encouragement on this forum are really invaluable so far, particularly re. pace, etc.

Younganne · 11-07-2012 01:47PM

moggie4000 wrote: »

Hi all,

i have started my marathon training this week. I'm doing the training schedule from the DCM website - 4 - 4.45 Marathon training. Hopefully going to complete it in under 4 hours. We'll see...

I have a couple of questions:

It mentions easy fartlek on the schedule, what is this? like a recovery run?

Also, i will be running 6 days per week for the next 16 weeks, should there be more rest days? I have run 5 mile, 10 mile, half marathon last year and 10k this year so not a complete novice.

Moggie

Hi Moggie,
Welcome and best of with the training.....
Fartlek is the swedish word for speed play and it means running at different paces/speeds in the run...it should give you more details that "easy fartlek"

6 days training a week for a Marathon Novice is quite a lot.
Can you post what a typical week is like..can you put up the plan for this week so we can have a look at it...how many miles a week are you running at the moment?
Rest is an important part of training too and just listen to your body!!

Younganne · 11-07-2012 01:49PM

La Di Da wrote: »

Still can't really get my head round running 26+ miles. Just taking it training day by training day for now. The discussions / encouragement on this forum are really invaluable so far, particularly re. pace, etc.

There is so much more training to do that there is no need to be worrying about it at the moment...remember when 3 miles was tough and now some of you are saying "its only 3m today"...thats the beauty of following a plan and building it bit by bit:D

Younganne · 11-07-2012 01:51PM

rasher_m wrote: »

Are we talking a tougher climb than the GIR?
How many feet is estimated as being a very steep hill by the way...in running terms?

One Mans mountain is another Mans hill!!! i heard that before and i think its a great saying.... so if you can get an odd hill in training go for it and it will strenghten your legs and make other hills seem less tough!!!!

Younganne · 11-07-2012 02:06PM

zefer wrote: »

Just back from 3.5 miles off absolute torture in monsoon rain, felt like 10miles!

I get out of shower and hey presto it's sunny here now :rolleyes:

Thats Irish weather for you and you should get use to running in all the elements. Last years Marathon started off very humid, then we got lovely sunshine, there was a nice " breeze":rolleyes: at times too and then we got torrential rain and hail...so practice running in them all because with Irish weather we'll probably get the 4 seasons on 29th Oct:D

Deedee2012 wrote: »

Back from 40mins of torture at the physio. Out for two weeks minimum, she only said two weeks when I pleaded about the race series 10k and that's only provisionally, I've to go back next week to see how my knee is progressing. I've a weak right ankle causing my left side to compensate, which tightens up, which is pulling my knee and one hip is higher than the other!! Still two weeks isn't so bad, usually I run through niggles and end up out for months. She said anyone marathon training should see a physio every few weeks for a tune up!! So I've to do some exercises faithfully and buy a foam roller to torture myself in her absence. Mega jealous of you all running away today. I'm hoping all is not lost for my training. I was kind of following HH2, so my last LSR was 9 miles, if this is a step back week and I can run the race series 10k I hope to pick it back up the following week. Am I clutching at straws? Dee

I meant to say when I pick it back up I'd drop back to HH1

Deedee, all is not lost. Rest, recover, so your exercise,not jsut for the 2 weeks but everyday as this will help strengthen the area and help in your overall running. Don't worry about dropping down for HH2 to HH1, wait and see how you are going when you are 100% fit to go back running..and glad you didn't try to run throught this one!!!

ncmc wrote: »

Thanks menoscemo, my target is 9 min mile, I would prob run my easy runs at 9.20-9.30.

I normally wouldn't find pace runs taxing so to speak, but I would probably notice a slight difference in my legs the next day. I think I get a bit obsessed when i'm doing my pace runs, I am checking my speed every 5 seconds... the reality is, a lot of my easy runs would be at MP anyway, but I just seem to notice it more when i'm actually trying to run MP! If that makes any sense

Lads remember you should be training to your current fitness and not your target pace, unless you know from recent races that this is the correct pace for you!

menoscemo wrote: »

It makes sense alright

The one piece of advice I would give you is to actively slow right down the very short runs each week. If I am not wrong you have a very short run early in the week (after the LSR) and another short one between the pace run and the LSR?

Try to do these way slower than normal, maybe 10.30-11 min/mile, thus making them a 'recovery run'. They will have the effect of freshening up your legs and making them ready for the next hard run. These runs should feel like a pleasant little jaunt not much more taxing than a brisk walk.
I am training for a 3 hr marathon (6:50/mile) and would still do my recovery runs at anywhere between 8:40-9:20/mile. Guys like Krusty clown who run 2;40 marathons (6;10/mile would do recovery runs at 8 min/mile and slower.

This advice is going to keep coming at you time and time again from lots of different angles and the one piece of advice you should really stick to....you cannot run too slow!:D

moggie4000 · 11-07-2012 02:07PM

Younganne wrote: »

Hi Moggie,
Welcome and best of with the training.....
Fartlek is the swedish word for speed play and it means running at different paces/speeds in the run...it should give you more details that "easy fartlek"

6 days training a week for a Marathon Novice is quite a lot.
Can you post what a typical week is like..can you put up the plan for this week so we can have a look at it...how many miles a week are you running at the moment?
Rest is an important part of training too and just listen to your body!!

Hi Younganne,

23 miles in total for the first 2 weeks with one rest day per week as follows:

Monday - 3m
Tuesday - 4m
Wednesday - 3m
Thursday - 4m easy with a few strides in the middle
Friday - rest
Saturday - 5m
Sunday - 4m

Moves on to 27 miles for the next 2 weeks, 35m x 2wks, 37m x 2wks, 42m x 2wks, 45m, 39m including half marathon, 47m, 37m and 21m.

I will be swimming on a saturday morning also, nothing too stressfull just to re-couperate.

Younganne · 11-07-2012 02:19PM

moggie4000 wrote: »

Hi Younganne,

23 miles in total for the first 2 weeks with one rest day per week as follows:

Monday - 3m
Tuesday - 4m
Wednesday - 3m
Thursday - 4m easy with a few strides in the middle
Friday - rest
Saturday - 5m
Sunday - 4m

Moves on to 27 miles for the next 2 weeks, 35m x 2wks, 37m x 2wks, 42m x 2wks, 45m, 39m including half marathon, 47m, 37m and 21m.

I will be swimming on a saturday morning also, nothing too stressfull just to re-couperate.

There's alot of short runs in the program. Is Sat the planned long run, how long do these get...it probably would be better if you were doing 5 runs with one longer than the current 5m.....check out the Novice 1 and Novice 2 plans from Hal Higdon and see how the long runs compare.... you could drop the Monday run and rest after the weekend, and make your long run a little longer...
is there stepback weeks, where the mileage reduces to give your legs a chance to rest/recover??

moggie4000 · 11-07-2012 02:25PM

Younganne wrote: »

There's alot of short runs in the program. Is Sat the planned long run, how long do these get...it probably would be better if you were doing 5 runs with one longer than the current 5m.....check out the Novice 1 and Novice 2 plans from Hal Higdon and see how the long runs compare.... you could drop the Monday run and rest after the weekend, and make your long run a little longer...
is there stepback weeks, where the mileage reduces to give your legs a chance to rest/recover??

The long runs do gradually get longer from 5m - 8m - 12m - 14m - 18m - 20m being the longest. All long runs are on a Sunday. There doesn't seem to be any 'stepback' weeks until the final week, of course! Do you think i should be doing longer runs or is one long run per week ok?

I'll check out the Hal Higdon plans and compare.

Younganne · 11-07-2012 02:45PM

moggie4000 wrote: »

The long runs do gradually get longer from 5m - 8m - 12m - 14m - 18m - 20m being the longest. All long runs are on a Sunday. There doesn't seem to be any 'stepback' weeks until the final week, of course! Do you think i should be doing longer runs or is one long run per week ok?

I'll check out the Hal Higdon plans and compare.

the longs runs have big jumps from 5 -8, 8 - 12, 14 -18...this should be more gradual IMO, i'm no expert but i know how hard it can be to go from an 8m run to a 12 mile run the next week.....they should really be 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20
see what you thing of the HH plans and compare the increas3es weekly and the long runs, also the stepback weeks are very important for both the body to recover and sometimes the mind as it can be daunting sometimes, this road we have chosen:D

menoscemo · 11-07-2012 02:47PM

rasher_m wrote: »

Are we talking a tougher climb than the GIR?
How many feet is estimated as being a very steep hill by the way...in running terms?

It looks to me like a hill simial to going up the Glen Rd. According to the map the Hill rises steadily about 100ft (33m) over 1 mile.
Apart from that 1 mile though it looks pretty flat/downhill.

Not the fastest of courses but I'd imagine it would be a little faster than the GIR.

Trampas · 11-07-2012 02:57PM

out for 10km at lunch and it was warm.

booked in for physio for tomorrow evening for a check on the foot.

Better safe than sorry

Pacing Mule · 11-07-2012 03:04PM

Approx 6k in 36 minutes today.

A nice run today - Endomondo went a bit haywire and told me I had done my second kilometre in 4 min

(turned out it lost GPS at one stage and had placed me a good distance from where I was - then when it found me again calculated as if I had ran there and back) It was on unfamilar territory around the blanchardstown centre area so I wasn't sure how far or at what pace I was running until I double checked the maps etc later. Knee held up well. Slightly sore towards the end but nothing too bad.

Pacing Mule · 11-07-2012 03:05PM

jprender wrote: »

Just over 3 kms this morning. I planned to run for 20 mins but pulled up after about 18 or so. Calf was getting a bit sore, and really did not want to damage it again so was extra cautious. Straight on with some ice when I got home.
Cross-training tomorrow night, and then another short run on Friday. It's a slow road back, but thankfully I still have time on my side.

At least I get to make my first entry on the spreadsheet !

Welcome back ! Have slotted you back into the main field on week 3.

career_move · 11-07-2012 05:49PM

Did my pace run on the treadmill cause the weather was so crap. It was a raging battle with the voices in my head. We're going too fast. Slow down. I'm tired. Oh look at that we've only done 3k. Lets slow down. Luckily the radio was on full blast so my legs didn't listen and they got the job done:D

Murph_D · 11-07-2012 06:25PM

Hi there - just found this thread and would like to hang out as I am considering the marathon. Had actually started the Higdon Novice 2 programme this week anyway (jumping in on week three as I've been running regularly outdoors for about 7 months now).

My details:

Age 51, wt 74kg.

PBs (only two timed races to date, both this year)
5k 26:41
8k 41:44

Have been doing 3-4 days a weeks since May, about twice before that. Getting the bug especially after the last 8k and had been thinking of maybe half marathon this year, full next year. However I'll be out of the country for the half so I've decided to do the training for the full and see how we get on. Aim for 3:59:59 but will be happy to just finish!

Satanta · 11-07-2012 09:33PM

Was at the physio this evening and the good news is there is nothing too badly amiss. My pelvis was a little lower and misaligned on the side where my leg was getting sore. My groin was quite tight and possibly pulling it out of allignment. An hour of pain later and I am well loosened out!

Advice was spend more time stretching and general flexibility. Start doing more core strengthening (bridges, planks etc). And also try to strengthen my groin muscles. Even though one was tight, they are weak compaired with my other leg muscles. Also important to stretch the IT band.

A day off tomorrow by recommendation but back at it on Friday

rasher_m · 12-07-2012 12:31AM

Satanta wrote: »

Was at the physio this evening and the good news is there is nothing too badly amiss. My pelvis was a little lower and misaligned on the side where my leg was getting sore. My groin was quite tight and possibly pulling it out of allignment. An hour of pain later and I am well loosened out!

Advice was spend more time stretching and general flexibility. Start doing more core strengthening (bridges, planks etc). And also try to strengthen my groin muscles. Even though one was tight, they are weak compaired with my other leg muscles. Also important to stretch the IT band.

A day off tomorrow by recommendation but back at it on Friday

A day off wont do you any harm, am doing the same myself. Lunges and squats are also great strenghteners as well.

Donal112 · 12-07-2012 08:13AM

Hi everyone,

loving this thread - have been reading through it to catch up (took a while!) for the last week or so. Brilliant advice and support.

I am a 33 year old guy. I ran last years DCM, but only found this thread the week before the the race so only used it for race day strategy/information. As I read through all the training advice on here now I am laughing at my training 'mistakes' last year! eg. My planned race time was 4hrs - I never once ran slower than 9 min miles in training, only faster on my shorter runs! In the end, while it was an amazing experience and I loved it, I struggled big time from 17 miles on. Eventually finished in 4hr12xx so not too bad slippage, but the last 9 miles were a combination of walking/running every mile and not fun!!

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?
5 miles - Dublin Docklands June 2011 - 39mins
10k - Dun Laoghaire August 2011 - 48 mins
Half Marathon - Dublin September 2010 - 1hr47 (target sub 1hr45 this year).
DCM 2011 - 4hr12

How much training do you currently do?
Now I am following Hal Higdon Novice 2 so sticking to the plan. But I am terrible - when I don't have a race target I find it really hard to motivate myself to run. Signed up for the Kildare Half in early May so trained for that, and then instead of using that as a great base for building on, I never ran once since then until I committed to the start of maratahon training on June 25th! Shambles :eek:

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Dream would be 3:45 - Realistic is anything sub 4hrs.

Why are you running this marathon?
Loved the experience last year. And I feel I have unfinished busines after struggling at the end last year - am determined to break the 4hr barrier. Also just following the training paln is a brilliant way to lose weight and stay in shape (I tend to carry a 'few' extra kgs

and when I'm not training they pile on very quickly!)

ncmc · 12-07-2012 08:30AM

Donal112 wrote: »

Hi everyone,

loving this thread - have been reading through it to catch up (took a while!) for the last week or so. Brilliant advice and support.

I am a 33 year old guy. I ran last years DCM, but only found this thread the week before the the race so only used it for race day strategy/information. As I read through all the training advice on here now I am laughing at my training 'mistakes' last year! eg. My planned race time was 4hrs - I never once ran slower than 9 min miles in training, only faster on my shorter runs! In the end, while it was an amazing experience and I loved it, I struggled big time from 17 miles on. Eventually finished in 4hr12xx so not too bad slippage, but the last 9 miles were a combination of walking/running every mile and not fun!!

Welcome to the thread Donal, you are well ahead of most of us here, so I’m sure you won’t have any problems!

I would be interested to know what mistakes you felt you made last year and what changes you would make to this years training?

I was talking to a guy I know over the weekend who did the DCM a few years ago. He followed the HH2 plan and followed it to the letter. He never missed a run and felt in great shape coming into the marathon, he was aiming for round the 4 hour mark. Similarly to you, the wheels came off at about 20 miles and he limped/struggled home in 4 hours 26 and ended up needing treatment from the ambulance crew! Another guy I know did his first marathon in Cork in June, was aiming for 3.45 and again, wheels came off and he did it in 4.05.

I think talking to them has made me re-evaluate my whole sub 4 target, more than anything I want to enjoy the experience and be able to walk at the end of it! I think a mistake a lot of newbies make is setting an ambitious time target and end up feeling disappointed at the end when they should feel amazingly proud! Hal Higdon keeps hammering it home that you shouldn’t have a time in mind for your first marathon and I think I am starting at last to listen to his advice (and the experts on here who I think will say the same thing)

moggie4000 · 12-07-2012 08:57AM

Took some good advice from here yesterday for my marathon training. first piece of advice i took was to run at a slower pace so you can see the difference from the first 3 days training.

Mon 9th July - 3 miles 26.26 minutes @ 8.47 min/mile
Tues 10th July - 4 miles 35.03 minutes @ 8.45 min/mile
Wed 11th July - 3 miles 29.22 minutes @ 9.39 min/mile

It was a really enjoyable run too!4 miles tonight with some strides in the middle.

corny · 12-07-2012 09:44AM

Jesus i can't wait for rest week next week.:)

Recovering from niggles on the go isn't advisable i know but i'm through the worst of it. Not so worried now, just tired!

shortie_chik · 12-07-2012 11:24AM

Just checking in today to say thanks to everyone on here!

This thread is definitely keeping me on course! I've been feeling like the crappiest runner the last 2 weeks & was so not-bothered to run yesterday (was due to do 5m) but the thought of a big fat public ZERO on the spread sheet (& bringing down the average distance for the group!) got me out for a short run yesterday evening (did 3m). Did 4.75m this morning, incl 2 miles at MPM. Even though I've been running at turtle-pace lately, but I pushed myself for those 2 miles & actually did them faster than I was aiming for (was hoping for 2 x 10 min miles, was more like 2 x 9:20!) I'd a big red puffy head on me

but I guess slow & steady has been working for me!

Despite what seems like lots of stretching, my calves have been like rocks this week, I guess since my LSR of 9m last weekend.

Got a foam roller in town yesterday & have upped the cool down routine & already I think it's made a difference. It's a bit sore to use, but I guess my weak little legs will get used to it!

Pacing Mule · 12-07-2012 11:25AM

ncmc wrote: »

Welcome to the thread Donal, you are well ahead of most of us here, so I’m sure you won’t have any problems!

I would be interested to know what mistakes you felt you made last year and what changes you would make to this years training?

I was talking to a guy I know over the weekend who did the DCM a few years ago. He followed the HH2 plan and followed it to the letter. He never missed a run and felt in great shape coming into the marathon, he was aiming for round the 4 hour mark. Similarly to you, the wheels came off at about 20 miles and he limped/struggled home in 4 hours 26 and ended up needing treatment from the ambulance crew! Another guy I know did his first marathon in Cork in June, was aiming for 3.45 and again, wheels came off and he did it in 4.05.

I think talking to them has made me re-evaluate my whole sub 4 target, more than anything I want to enjoy the experience and be able to walk at the end of it! I think a mistake a lot of newbies make is setting an ambitious time target and end up feeling disappointed at the end when they should feel amazingly proud! Hal Higdon keeps hammering it home that you shouldn’t have a time in mind for your first marathon and I think I am starting at last to listen to his advice (and the experts on here who I think will say the same thing)

I'm in the same boat completely.

I am bordering on obsessive trying to work out what pace I need to be like to hit sub 4:30, sub 4:15, sub 4:00 etc and you're 100% right. Disappointment is sure to follow. Am trying my best currently to put all thoughts of times to one side and concentrate on finishing and being happy just to finish.

Murph_D · 12-07-2012 12:25PM

OK - starting to figure out how things work around here.

Have entered my data for last few weeks in the spreadsheet. Only started HHN2 proper so the first weeks are less structured but the "kilometrage" is about right. (Metric guy myself, despite my advanced age).

Looking forward to the next few months.

NoelJ · 12-07-2012 01:09PM

This thread is great for motivation. Did my last 3mile before the LSR. Decided to run it quickly to see have I improved and I ran at 5k in 24:10. It's great to see it all paying off especially when my 9mile was only 2 minutes slower than my 8 mile, it really proved this is working. Looking forward to the 6mile LSR and the 3 days rest.

Runchick · 12-07-2012 01:12PM

Just a quick hello and big thank you to this thread for all the advice regarding pace. As others have said its been enlightening to realise that slow is good! I have done my 3 consecutive runs for the week 4m, 7m and 4m (HHN2 week 7) and have really enjoyed them...first 4m at a comfortable 9min30 pace, 7 mile at a more challenging 9min10 pace and then a very enjoyable 4 miler at 10min pace last night! Really enjoying the runs now and finding the advice on here absolutely invaluable! I'm off today on a 3 day hen party - Sunday's 14mile LSR should be interesting ;-))

tang1 · 12-07-2012 01:21PM

Runchick wrote: »

Just a quick hello and big thank you to this thread for all the advice regarding pace. As others have said its been enlightening to realise that slow is good! I have done my 3 consecutive runs for the week 4m, 7m and 4m (HHN2 week 7) and have really enjoyed them...first 4m at a comfortable 9min30 pace, 7 mile at a more challenging 9min10 pace and then a very enjoyable 4 miler at 10min pace last night! Really enjoying the runs now and finding the advice on here absolutely invaluable! I'm off today on a 3 day hen party - Sunday's 14mile LSR should be interesting ;-))

Enjoy the hen party, one drink per mile per night of your LSR should have you flying by Sunday. Great training BTW.

Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

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