Just a thought...

Galvasean · 04-07-2012 02:14AM

whatsup? wrote: »

The Church doesn't deserve all the abuse it gets just because it upholds views that others decide to agree with.

That's where you and I disagree. If by 'the church' you mean the catholic church then I reckon they deserve every last modicum of criticism they get. If their views include hiding child abusers from the law in order to preserve their own image (which they do) among other things then they deserve to be criticised (and much more harshly than the world is currently doing so).
As for other things like Creationism; when something is that stupid it should not be above complete and utter ridicule.

fitz0 · 04-07-2012 06:40AM

endacl wrote: »

Nope. This would make you a simple dabbler. Get the shirt. It's important. And the hat. Then we can start on the underwear requirements.

Aw the hat too? But since the sacred picture shows no legs, that means there's no underwear requirement! Or is it a requirement of no underwear? o.O

jank · 04-07-2012 09:56AM

I understand the OP's point of view. If atheism is a lack of belief then why extol your opinions in belittling those with belief. Now the get our card for this is/was "Religious people have lots of power of us!!!!" Well that I think is over blown. It is very easy to point at say abortion or gay adoption and blame religious organisations for the fact that these issues have not been legislated for. However there is very little proof of this since the early 90's.

Personally, I don't think this has anything to do with Religion per say more so that Irish people are very lazy in regards liberalism. TD's are more concerned with fixing potholes then legislating for the nation.

The power the RCC had in Ireland has been overblown, history will show that.

There are good in-roads being made at the moment regarding civil partnerships, secularism in public schools and so on. I suppose its a sign of the times when the attitude is "I want it all NOW!"

Dades · 04-07-2012 10:58AM

I partly agree. The power of the church is much less than it was (although the schools is the big one - we still have to send them our children).

However, I also believe the backlash against *militant* atheism we see here is overblown.

This is a forum for people to talk freely about their beliefs, or lack of, as well as a place to criticize and poke fun at things they feel deserve it. We're one sub-forum of hundreds on Boards, which in turn is one of countless Internet forums.

Everything should be open to criticism or ridicule where deserved (if you think it's not deserved - defend it!) There are no sacred cows. This is a tiny corner of the web where religion, if posters want, can be discussed without barriers. I don't get why people continue to drop in here to castigate users for talking freely. Fair enough if people are dragging threads down in other forums, but this forum is clearly labelled.

We're not waving placards or buying up advertising space, so I wish people would stop coming here to be offended.

jank · 04-07-2012 02:13PM

I get what you are saying Dades and I understand why it can be hard for others to understand but there is a DEFINITIVE "country club" mentality in this forum.

There is an underlining hostility (this may not be intended) to new posters that may not share the consensus which is very ironic when most people here pride themselves on being an individual making their own choices in life. It just goes to show, all humans want to be accepted by their peers no matter what their beliefs.

Pushtrak · 04-07-2012 02:25PM

jank, the same questions come up every time, with underlying motives clear to read. The "Why are you an atheist" thread that came up recently is an interesting one. This is one that comes up a lot. Usually, it is theists coming in with a dismissive attitude to atheists and start up a thread. This occasion was different, as the OP was very different from the normal. Of course, we had someone come in to alter the tone. Check out the thread from the start. Notice from post 117 on that thread how things changed.

Dades · 04-07-2012 02:30PM

If there is hostility here towards any new poster, it is only being reciprocated.

A poster new to the forum who engages with no agenda and an open mind will not have any such issues. One that has an agenda will soon become apparent.

The problem can also be one of numbers. What often happens is someone 'green' to the forum makes a statement and immediately gets back five responses. This poster is suddenly on the end of perceived oppression and erects a defence, or worse, goes on the attack. Especially if that poster is not used to "vigorous" defence of every statement!

Where threads do go wrong, there's always a few posts that you can finger as the ones where the new user lost the crowd. :pac:

ShooterSF · 04-07-2012 03:07PM

Indeed. Wasn't there a religious poster here recently who started a thread and was met with plenty of civility because he was polite in his views and seemed to actually take on posts. If there's one problem we have it is the numbers game and that's the same everywhere. Say something flawed in the opinion of atheists and everyone will point it out in their own style leaving a poster with huge numbers to try and respond to. It's not intentional ganging up.

However we do have plenty of posters come on after reading some apologetics reasons why god exists or watching some youtube video, and without searching to see the point they are about to make is dealt with ad nauseum, post it anyway and they do get a tired and agitated response which they probably feel short changed by giving how amazing this new piece of information is to them.

Anyway on the issue at hand I'm fascinated with all things supernatural and the idea that maybe people have been conned and just need the right combination of words to free them. I don't go out of my way to strike up these conversations but I tend to offer my point of view when such a topic comes up from god to acupuncture to psychic to chiropractor to homoeopathy. Happy that if the person discussing the issue still carries on their belief they at least made a (poor imo) informed decision and that those around them that may have been swayed might now not be...

joseph brand · 04-07-2012 03:16PM

jank wrote: »

I get what you are saying Dades and I understand why it can be hard for others to understand but there is a DEFINITIVE "country club" mentality in this forum.

There is an underlining hostility (this may not be intended) to new posters that may not share the consensus which is very ironic when most people here pride themselves on being an individual making their own choices in life. It just goes to show, all humans want to be accepted by their peers no matter what their beliefs.

I suppose it depends largely on what these 'new posters' are saying.

How about some of us, pop over to the other forum for a bit, to complain and moan about being maltreated. Only thing is, I'm not much for whinging and moaning.

"Leave us alone" and "Go back to your dark cave you godless heathens", would be the general gist of the comments received from theist posters.

None of which offends me. I just find it fruitless and inane tbh.

Believe in, and worship the All Powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster and you shall be saved.

pauldla · 04-07-2012 03:40PM

joseph brand wrote: »

How about some of us, pop over to the other forum for a bit, to complain and moan about being maltreated. Only thing is, I'm not much for whinging and moaning.

"Leave us alone" and "Go back to your dark cave you godless heathens", would be the general gist of the comments received from theist posters.

I've posted on two or three threads on the other forum and I almost regret it now. You're not going to hear or learn anything new, and you can find yourself being sucked into arguments that are little more than angels-on-pinhead debates. Who needs that?

Dades · 04-07-2012 04:26PM

Quit referring to the "other" forum, people.

How they operate is their business.

Kidchameleon · 04-07-2012 04:40PM

Dades wrote: »

A poster new to the forum who engages with no agenda and an open mind will not have any such issues.

Ill add that some of the regulars here do have an agenda and a very closed mind so new posters are vulnerable to these people.

Otacon · 04-07-2012 04:49PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ill add that some of the regulars here do have an agenda and a very closed mind so new posters are vulnerable to these people.

I have yet to see a single 'regular' here dismiss reasoned debate and evidence due to an agenda or close-mindedness.

However, normally the debate and evidence from the other side lacks credibility.

Sarky · 04-07-2012 04:50PM

Names, plx? Links to posts displaying agendas? Anything like that?

Penn · 04-07-2012 04:53PM

jank wrote: »

I get what you are saying Dades and I understand why it can be hard for others to understand but there is a DEFINITIVE "country club" mentality in this forum.

There is an underlining hostility (this may not be intended) to new posters that may not share the consensus which is very ironic when most people here pride themselves on being an individual making their own choices in life. It just goes to show, all humans want to be accepted by their peers no matter what their beliefs.

Personally, I welcome discussion with posters who offer up their opposing viewpoint. That's what makes most discussions interesting. However, you make it sound like as soon as a new poster comes in, we jump at the chance to ridicule and deride them. I would say, that many new posters (who are religious) tend to start things off on a bad foot by throwing about terms such as "militant atheists" and "atheism is a religion", two things which are so wrong yet constantly thrown about as a defense mechanism, even before a poster should feel the need to defend their position.

Dades · 04-07-2012 04:53PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ill add that some of the regulars here do have an agenda and a very closed mind so new posters are vulnerable to these people.

Then this is something you should put to those individual posters in a thread where you feel this has manifested itself.

Otherwise this is just a throwaway statement incapable of being shown to be true, or defended against.

04-07-2012 05:08PM

Sarky wrote: »

Names, plx? Links to posts displaying agendas? Anything like that?

don't be silly, that would be evidence. and faith is much better than evidence

Kidchameleon · 04-07-2012 05:24PM

Sarky wrote: »

Names, plx? Links to posts displaying agendas? Anything like that?

Here

|
|
v

bluewolf wrote: »

don't be silly, that would be evidence. and faith is much better than evidence

04-07-2012 05:25PM

i made my post after your claim. try again

(what agenda?)

Turtwig · 04-07-2012 07:39PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Sarky wrote: »

Names, plx? Links to posts displaying agendas? Anything like that?

Here

|
|
v

bluewolf wrote: »

don't be silly, that would be evidence. and faith is much better than evidence

Insurance quotas tick you off?

pauldla · 05-07-2012 02:28AM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ill add that some of the regulars here do have an agenda and a very closed mind so new posters are vulnerable to these people.

I'm a new poster. Just over 100 posts at the time of writing this, which is about 10% of your posts. Though of course you may be new posting to A&A. I don't feel particularly vulnerable, and the only minds I'd consider 'closed' are the ones who make provocative and/or condescending comments and then refuse to qualify or explain them.

If by 'agenda' you mean 'A list or program of things to be done or problems to be addressed.' (thank you dictionary.com), well then yes, I suppose there are many here who have some sort of agenda. One agenda might be 'how can we, atheists and secularists of this modern world, keep ourselves from going absolutely bloody mad in the face of the irrational and, in some cases, near-psychotic opinions that shape modern political and intellectual discourse'.

Given the above, I now have two questions for you.

1. What do you mean by the term militant atheists?
2. What other agendas do you think might be at play on the A&A forum?

jank · 05-07-2012 02:47AM

joseph brand wrote: »

I suppose it depends largely on what these 'new posters' are saying.

How about some of us, pop over to the other forum for a bit, to complain and moan about being maltreated. Only thing is, I'm not much for whinging and moaning.

"Leave us alone" and "Go back to your dark cave you godless heathens", would be the general gist of the comments received from theist posters.

None of which offends me. I just find it fruitless and inane tbh.

Believe in, and worship the All Powerful Flying Spaghetti Monster and you shall be saved.

See you were doing well until the last line.

Sarky · 05-07-2012 10:38AM

I would be delighted to see you explain why you're not just getting offended on behalf of people who don't seem to exist.

CerebralCortex · 05-07-2012 11:46AM

jank wrote: »

See you were doing well until the last line.

Are you serious? Please for the sake of yourself and others grow up.

Turtwig · 05-07-2012 12:23PM

whatsup? wrote: »

I understand what your're saying and I've no problem with people discussing their beliefs or lack of in any forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion! What annoyed me here was to see the church and those who possess a faith in it being constantly ridiculed and belittled.

Earlier what i was trying to say was that even though people have a view that is influenced by church teaching its still their viewpoint and should be respected, for example a person may be against abortion because they personally are against it, not because the church is. The Church doesn't deserve all the abuse it gets just because it upholds views that others decide to agree with. If the church was pro-abortion and pro gay marriage i'm sure there would still be people in this world who would be against it..maybe atheists!?

Also i see "militant atheism" as someone who takes to the street to enforce a godless agenda through "military" means, like Stalin and the likes. I don't think anyone here falls into that bracket!

I think most posters here agree that ridiculing people is wrong. Is ridiculing an idea wrong though? Why is it that I can criticise political parties' beliefs and stances, make a mockery of them? I can do the same for football rivalries. When I criticise Obama's political beliefs I don't think I am attacking the man personally nor do I think that I'm ridiculing him. For what it's worth I think Obama is a highly intelligent person, he's probably a good family man, friend, neighbour etc. on that stuff I make no comment either way. All I care about is his ideas. When it comes to religious people we don't comment about the individual's characteristics all we focus on is the ideas they follow. (Unless of course they do something criminal or immoral!) No idea should be protected from examination and criticism.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 wrote:

test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.

Please don't assume that religious beliefs are above criticism because they're not and every religious text from Christianity to Buddhism says so too. And Please PLEASE don't assume that criticising a belief is the same as criticising a person. I think it's only fair that if a person is willing to push their ideas in public that they should be willing to have them openly criticised, don't you? If the Church was pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage for farcical reasons then I'd be critical of it and I'd hope that most rational people, both religious and non-religious, would be.:)

All that aside, I have to ask what you think of the current state of your church and what, if any, criticisms towards it you think are warranted?

I'm happy we agree that nobody here falls into the militant atheist category. There are some anti-theists here though and I think understanding the distinction between atheism and anti-theism is something very important. Atheists simply do not believe in a God. Anti-theists are against others believing in God they might not necessarily be exclusively atheist either.

Dades · 05-07-2012 12:29PM

jank wrote: »

See you were doing well until the last line.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Are you serious? Please for the sake of yourself and others grow up.

Enough bickering people. This thread is just about holding it together.

joseph brand · 05-07-2012 01:55PM

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ill add that some of the regulars here do have an agenda and a very closed mind so new posters are vulnerable to these people.

What?

I don't know whether you are trolling or serious.

The agenda is basically to offer a forum for like minded people who don't believe in taking fairy tales seriously. We are after all, adults, not children.

As to this wishy washy idea of new posters feeling vulnerable. I can't see how any Atheists posters would feel nervous in here, but I CAN understand theists not feeling comfortable talking about their beliefs.

AFAIK, not ONE religious poster has made any sensible, reasonable logical point. Ans as soon as anyone debates them they get defensive and start foaming at the mouth. The problem does not lie with us, but them. (If they can't handle a bit of constructive criticism).

It's not that long ago that these debates would not even have been possible.

Let us rejoice. :pac:

jank · 05-07-2012 03:15PM

Sarky wrote: »

I would be delighted to see you explain why you're not just getting offended on behalf of people who don't seem to exist.

Its a closed minded approach from the get go.

CerebralCortex · 05-07-2012 03:40PM

jank wrote: »

Its a closed minded approach from the get go.

So being close minded is the same as being open to evidence? I don't think you understand what it means to be close minded.

Turtwig · 05-07-2012 07:47PM

jank wrote: »

Sarky wrote: »

I would be delighted to see you explain why you're not just getting offended on behalf of people who don't seem to exist.

Its a closed minded approach from the get go.

Forget for a moment whether an approach is open minded or closed minded. Would you mind outlining to us in detail, if necessary, the approach you would suggest?

Just a thought...

Comments