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Owning A Passport Of A Country You've Never Been In

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Comments

  • #32
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    irish-stew wrote: »
    Was there not already discussions for this between Irish and GB air and seaports?

    Correct. The Common Travel Area between the Republic and the UK is not absolute, because it is not provided for officially in legislation. It could be removed with the stroke of a pen. The only thing they can't take away too easy is an Irish persons right to live and work permanently in the UK. There would have to be a retroactive law to allow this, which aren't very popular with the ECHR, or members of Parliament in the UK.


  • #33
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Killer Wench wrote: »
    Eh. Personally, I think if you are gonna claim citizenship for your benefit, then you should be liable for supporting the government like any other citizen. It should not be a one way street.

    The American Government wants you to believe this without questioning. Europeans aren't as naive in this regard. It's uncommon everywhere else BUT America to file tax forms of your native country as a non resident. This law implies you are the property of the American Government. A commodity to be bought and sold. I am not a commodity.


  • #34
    Mint Sauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    pseudofax wrote: »
    Correct. The Common Travel Area between the Republic and the UK is not absolute, because it is not provided for officially in legislation. It could be removed with the stroke of a pen. The only thing they can't take away too easy is an Irish persons right to live and work permanently in the UK. There would have to be a retroactive law to allow this, which aren't very popular with the ECHR, or members of Parliament in the UK.

    Did they not also say it would be very hard to restrict due to the common land mass between the Republic and NI, say for example someone traveling over the boarder to belfast and simply sailing or flying to Britan from there. The same way a none EU national can fly into belfast for a Holiday in NI and stray over the boarder by accident without the correct visa.


  • #35
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    pseudofax wrote: »
    The American Government wants you to believe this without questioning. Europeans aren't as naive in this regard. It's uncommon everywhere else BUT America to file tax forms of your native country as a non resident. This law implies you are the property of the American Government. A commodity to be bought and sold. I am not a commodity.

    No, I believe this because I am also a member of a tribal community where there are plenty of people claiming heritage, but have done nothing to support the continuance of the community. It is all about their needs and what they can get from their citizenship and not about how they are obligated to do their part to keep the community going.

    If you want a passport, do your part to support the nation that you are claiming.


  • #36
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Killer Wench wrote: »
    No, I believe this because I am also a member of a tribal community where there are plenty of people claiming heritage, but have done nothing to support the continuance of the community. It is all about their needs and what they can get from their citizenship and not about how they are obligated to do their part to keep the community going.

    If you want a passport, do your part to support the nation that you are claiming.

    taxes pay for the upkeep of the country. if you're not in the country using those facilities, then being expected to pay tax on your earnings from another country, where you're also paying tax, is completely unreasonable and absolutely reeks of extreme communism

    an american passport, in the sense we're discussing here, is of no use to anyone irish unless they're living in america, and if they're living in america then they're going to be paying taxes anyway


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  • #37
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    Helix wrote: »
    taxes pay for the upkeep of the country. if you're not in the country using those facilities, then being expected to pay tax on your earnings from another country, where you're also paying tax, is completely unreasonable and absolutely reeks of extreme communism

    an american passport, in the sense we're discussing here, is of no use to anyone irish unless they're living in america, and if they're living in america then they're going to be paying taxes anyway


    But, once you decide to use that passport and come back to the state that you claim, you are also expecting to have reasonable access to all of the rights and services reserved for citizens. Those services have to be maintained regardless of whether you are living there or not. If you have no intention of returning - and thus no intention of ever using those services - renounce your claim and support the nation that you are paying to maintain.


  • #38
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Killer Wench wrote: »
    But, once you decide to use that passport and come back to the state that you claim, you are also expecting to have reasonable access to all of the rights and services reserved for citizens. Those services have to be maintained regardless of whether you are living there or not. If you have no intention of returning - and thus no intention of ever using those services - renounce your claim and support the nation that you are paying to maintain.

    but as soon as you return there you're paying taxes, that's the whole point of taxes. you pay them to support the upkeep of the country you're living in

    do you pay regular retainers to your favourite restaurants, even though you don't go, to help with their upkeep? of course you dont, however when you're there to use their services you pay your dues

    there's a reason america is the only major country to utilise this system you know - because the "god bless america" mentality is drilled in from birth, and you're told that patriotism is the most important virtue, and to question anything that the big ol' god fearing government says about patriotism is to act against your wonderful country

    nowhere else would stand for it, and for good reason


  • #39
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    irish-stew wrote: »
    Did they not also say it would be very hard to restrict due to the common land mass between the Republic and NI, say for example someone traveling over the boarder to belfast and simply sailing or flying to Britan from there. The same way a none EU national can fly into belfast for a Holiday in NI and stray over the boarder by accident without the correct visa.

    I flew over to Birmingham a while back and they didn't check my passport on the way out, but I would imagine it could be done, it's just a waste of UK Government funds to police such a large area border as Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It could be done, but why unless there is a war on or something? It would cost far too much with too little to gain.

    Irish CItizens can only be deported from the UK for extremely serious offences, Terrorism, Genocide, Murder etc, amounting to 5 years or more. EU citizens can be deported for serious 2 year prison sentances. Also, In addition to this, non Irish or UK citizens can be removed for other non criminal reasons, and do not have a right to public funds like welfare. Non EU nationals can be deported for very mundane reasons.


  • #40
    Azures
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭Azures


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Yes I am btw planning to visit Canada at some point within the next 5 years maybe even go there regularly. Emigrate? Who knows!

    Does anyone know anything about the process, I'm told it takes around 18 months? :( I have to apply for citizenship first and then apply for a passport apparantly. Anyone know anything?

    Easiest way is to get a company to offer you a skilled job. There is a top ten list of jobs where they are short of Canadians to fill. Then you need points to qualify, there is a good govt website. My brother was over there within 6 months of a job offer.


  • #41
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    Helix wrote: »
    but as soon as you return there you're paying taxes, that's the whole point of taxes. you pay them to support the upkeep of the country you're living in

    do you pay regular retainers to your favourite restaurants, even though you don't go, to help with their upkeep? of course you dont, however when you're there to use their services you pay your dues

    there's a reason america is the only major country to utilise this system you know - because the "god bless america" mentality is drilled in from birth, and you're told that patriotism is the most important virtue, and to question anything that the big ol' god fearing government says about patriotism is to act against your wonderful country

    nowhere else would stand for it, and for good reason

    No, you are paying taxes to the state that you are claiming to be a citizen of. And, I pay taxes for services that I do not use on a regular basis. An example, many residents pay for a 911 (emergency number) tax; do I use that bad boy every night? No. But one day I might, and because of that tax, it will be there when I need it.

    If you think people are told not to question our government, then you know absolutely nothing about our political structure, and our electoral process. If we do not like the direction of our government, we can vote them out in the next election. A recent example, my country is divided by the recent Supreme Court decision finding that the Health Care law to be constitutional under tax provisions; those who oppose the nature of this law will be able to vote for a candidate who will repeal this Act.

    It is amusing to me to see so much conjecture about a nation of 300+ million people as if all of those millions of people share one monolithic train of thought, religion, political identity, and history.


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  • #42
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Azures wrote: »
    Easiest way is to get a company to offer you a skilled job. There is a top ten list of jobs where they are short of Canadians to fill. Then you need points to qualify, there is a good govt website. My brother was over there within 6 months of a job offer.

    He's entitled to a Canadian passport... He doesn't need to do any of that


  • #43
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Killer Wench wrote: »
    No, you are paying taxes to the state that you are claiming to be a citizen of. And, I pay taxes for services that I do not use on a regular basis. An example, many residents pay for a 911 (emergency number) tax; do I use that bad boy every night? No. But one day I might, and because of that tax, it will be there when I need it.

    If you think people are told not to question our government, then you know absolutely nothing about our political structure, and our electoral process. If we do not like the direction of our government, we can vote them out in the next election. A recent example, my country is divided by the recent Supreme Court decision finding that the Health Care law to be constitutional under tax provisions; those who oppose the nature of this law will be able to vote for a candidate who will repeal this Act.

    It is amusing to me to see so much conjecture about a nation of 300+ million people as if all of those millions of people share one monolithic train of thought, religion, political identity, and history.

    Brain washing in action folks!


  • #44
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Helix wrote: »
    Brain washing in action folks!

    "God Bless United States of America", a state not even as old as the stone wall outside my house:D


  • #45
    Azures
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭Azures


    If he has to apply for citizenship then he might be quicker getting a job first and getting citizenship In Canada, s'all I'm saying. At the Citizenship ceremony you have to make an oath of loyalty to the Queen!


  • #46
    fullstop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,719 ✭✭✭✭fullstop


    I know a South African with an Irish passport who has never been here, seems a bit pointless to me.


  • #47
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    pseudofax wrote: »
    "God Bless United States of America", a state not even as old as the stone wall outside my house:D

    And when did Ireland get its independence again?


  • #48
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Azures wrote: »
    If he has to apply for citizenship then he might be quicker getting a job first and getting citizenship In Canada, s'all I'm saying. At the Citizenship ceremony you have to make an oath of loyalty to the Queen!

    swear an oath? id let her drop the hand tbh


  • #49
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    fullstop wrote: »
    I know a South African with an Irish passport who has never been here, seems a bit pointless to me.

    why? as things stand he's got free movement within the eu - hardly all that pointless


  • #50
    Azures
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭Azures


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    irish-stew wrote: »
    Would they be allowed one if their parents were born in the south before the 1940s?

    That's what I was thinking. Also for football even a Grandparent would be enough :P

    Around 1990 they made a law where if you were entitled to a British citizenship, by being born before the Republic you had to sign a document to claim it - or let it go forever. It was very threatening for the Irish community in Britain at the time, given the politics. Now if you have Irish grandparents in Britain, you have to register the birth at the Irish embassy, to qualify for citizenship. If you are registered your children can also claim- but only up to Great grandparents. After that you are British!


  • #51
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Killer Wench wrote: »
    And when did Ireland get its independence again?


    Free State Dominion Status in 1922, officially a full republic in 1949:)


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  • #52
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Azures wrote: »
    Around 1990 they made a law where if you were entitled to a British citizenship, by being born before the Republic you had to sign a document to claim it - or let it go forever. It was very threatening for the Irish community in Britain at the time, given the politics. Now if you have Irish grandparents in Britain, you have to register the birth at the Irish embassy, to qualify for citizenship. If you are registered your children can also claim- but only up to Great grandparents. After that you are British!

    It's not that simple,

    Your parents who are citizens by descent, not from otherwise then by descent from the grandparent must also have been resident inside the UK for at least three years before your birth if you were born outside the UK. The Brits have a very tight grasp on their citizenship claims. British citizenship law is extremely complex, unlike Ireland, where even plastic paddies can avail of citizenship:D


  • #53
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    Azures wrote: »
    If you are registered your children can also claim- but only up to Great grandparents. After that you are British!

    i think that particular rule is that you can only claim irish citizenship as far bas as great grandparents, but if your parents claimed irish citizenship, and you claim irish citizenship, and your kids claim irish citizenship and their kids claim irish citizenship but the next generation doesnt, their kids can still claim it based on the fact that their grandparents were irish citizens, and the cycle continues. from what ive read up on it, it only falls by the wayside so you can't claim it if it has lapsed for more than 3 generations prior to you. my understanding of it was that each subsequent generation can continue to claim it as long as theres no break of more than 3 generations


  • #54
    pseudofax
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 60 ✭✭pseudofax


    Helix wrote: »
    i think that particular rule is that you can only claim irish citizenship as far bas as great grandparents, but if your parents claimed irish citizenship, and you claim irish citizenship, and your kids claim irish citizenship and their kids claim irish citizenship but the next generation doesnt, their kids can still claim it based on the fact that their grandparents were irish citizens, and the cycle continues. from what ive read up on it, it only falls by the wayside so you can't claim it if it has lapsed for more than 3 generations prior to you. my understanding of it was that each subsequent generation can continue to claim it as long as theres no break of more than 3 generations

    Irish citizenship can only be transmitted from one grandparent generation. Recursion down the line to the level of great, great, great grandparents and so on isn't allowed, despite Americans claiming to be Irish based on a distant relative.


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