Are you for or against national id cards/profiles?

#1 · 01-07-2012 02:17PM #1

A lot of people seem to be against them, mostly liberal bed wetters. But if you have nothing to hide and don't break the law, then having national id's would make life so much easier.

- Imagine not having to have passports. You simply show up at the airport a few minutes before your flight leaves, scan your fingerprint at security and stroll on through. None of the tedious checking in, taking off shoes/belt at security, checking passports/tickets at the gate. None of that would be necessary because when you buy your airline ticket, its automatically added to your national id profile on the database, so one fingerprint scan at the airport is all thats needed. You would be listed on the database as being of no threat or little threat, so no searching at security would be needed for you, unless you have a criminal record or are otherwise listed as potentially being a threat.

- You would no longer need to carry id to get into clubs/bars, again just scan your fingerprint at the entrance and go on in.

- Your bank account could be linked to your national id, so all you need to do when buying something is scan your fingerprint. No more need for cash and debit cards anymore.

- No having to register to vote, you are automatically allowed to vote once you are the required age. Electronic voting would therefore be possible with no risk of fraud.

- When you buy a car, this is added to your national id on the database, and so only you can start the car with your fingerprint. Same goes for entering your house. So chance of theft/robberys are greatly reduced.

- Tax returns would be a thing of the past because all your income and purchases are automatically recorded on your profile on the database, so the system will ensure you are paying the right amount of tax. So you save fees and time on doing tax returns, also tax and benefit fraud would be a thing of the past.

- Applying for a mortgage would be an instantaneous process.

I'm sure there would be a ton of other benefits too which I couldn't be bothered thinking about.

Crann na Beatha · 01-07-2012 02:18PM

This post has been deleted.

christmas2012 · 01-07-2012 02:19PM

i think its a great idea if it cuts out fraud

AlmightyCushion · 01-07-2012 02:19PM

A national ID card does not work the way you think it does. Not even in the slightest.

delad · 01-07-2012 02:21PM

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

A national ID card does not work the way you think it does. Not even in the slightest.

it could work as long as our national profiles are linked with our bank accounts

delad · 01-07-2012 02:22PM

Aquila wrote: »

Needs a poll!

don't think I can add a poll now that the thread is posted

El Guapo! · 01-07-2012 02:22PM

Generally a great idea. But the whole starting your car with your fingerprint thing is not feasible.
If you've nothing to hide then you shouldn't worry about it. Unless you're into conspiracy theories.

christmas2012 · 01-07-2012 02:23PM

linked to our bank accounts what if someone lets say a third party gets that information??

delad · 01-07-2012 02:25PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

linked to our bank accounts what if someone lets say a third party gets that information??

the risk of third parties getting that info would not be any greater than it is now

Sonics2k · 01-07-2012 02:26PM

As long as you 'opt in' for them, then I'm absolutely fine with it.

I'd probably get one myself depending on how useful it would actually be.

delad · 01-07-2012 02:26PM

Dean09 wrote: »

Generally a great idea. But the whole starting your car with your fingerprint thing is not feasible.

I don't see why not, the technology is there for this to be possible.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:31PM

A lot of what you have said is unrealistic. The technology isn't there for a good bit of what you have said. The whole country would have to be networked together at a cost of billions if not hundreds of billions, and it would eleminate any startup businesses if they cant afford the 20k that it could cost to get connected.

SocSocPol · 01-07-2012 02:33PM

delad wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be against them, mostly liberal bed wetters. But if you have nothing to hide and don't break the law, then having national id's would make life so much easier.

- Imagine not having to have passports. You simply show up at the airport a few minutes before your flight leaves, scan your fingerprint at security and stroll on through. None of the tedious checking in, taking off shoes/belt at security, checking passports/tickets at the gate. None of that would be necessary because when you buy your airline ticket, its automatically added to your national id profile on the database, so one fingerprint scan at the airport is all thats needed. You would be listed on the database as being of no threat or little threat, so no searching at security would be needed for you, unless you have a criminal record or are otherwise listed as potentially being a threat.

- You would no longer need to carry id to get into clubs/bars, again just scan your fingerprint at the entrance and go on in.

- Your bank account could be linked to your national id, so all you need to do when buying something is scan your fingerprint. No more need for cash and debit cards anymore.

- No having to register to vote, you are automatically allowed to vote once you are the required age. Electronic voting would therefore be possible with no risk of fraud.

- When you buy a car, this is added to your national id on the database, and so only you can start the car with your fingerprint. Same goes for entering your house. So chance of theft/robberys are greatly reduced.

- Tax returns would be a thing of the past because all your income and purchases are automatically recorded on your profile on the database, so the system will ensure you are paying the right amount of tax. So you save fees and time on doing tax returns, also tax and benefit fraud would be a thing of the past.

- Applying for a mortgage would be an instantaneous process.

I'm sure there would be a ton of other benefits too which I couldn't be bothered thinking about.

What a mature, intelligent and well thought out statement (not).
If you think thats how ID cards work then you have a lot to learn kiddo.

MrReynholm · 01-07-2012 02:34PM

Having a centralised database on people with the things you include, such as how they spend money, where they spend money, how much money they spend, what countries they go to, what kind of entertainment they enjoy, presumably things like their education and more is a receipe for abuse and I would absolutely be opposed to such a thing.

A national identity card is not that thing though, thankfully. Also, the argument of "if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about" doesn't hold much weight for me when it comes to an expectation or right to privacy and freedom. Such an attitude will have people give up more and more rights until they've none left to give up, and those rights will never be restored.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:34PM

delad wrote: »

I don't see why not, the technology is there for this to be possible.

Realisticlly its not.

El Weirdo · 01-07-2012 02:34PM

delad wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be against them, mostly liberal bed wetters. But if you have nothing to hide...

I stopped reading here.

El Guapo! · 01-07-2012 02:36PM

delad wrote: »

Dean09 wrote: »

Generally a great idea. But the whole starting your car with your fingerprint thing is not feasible.

I don't see why not, the technology is there for this to be possible.

So every time a car is sold on to someone else it has to be brought into a garage and it needs to be changed to match their fingerprint? And then what if you need to lend the car to someone? They can't start the car without your finger?
It's just an unrealistic, unworkable idea imo.

delad · 01-07-2012 02:37PM

GarIT wrote: »

A lot of what you have said is unrealistic. The technology isn't there for a good bit of what you have said.

The technology is there for fingerprint scanning. No government has used or talked about national ids in the way that I've outlined, but it would be possible.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:37PM

That would decsriminate against people without arms and make their life nearly impossible.

It would change robberies from someone stealing your phone and wallet to literally taking your hand.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:39PM

delad wrote: »

The technology is there for fingerprint scanning. No government has used or talked about national ids in the way that I've outlined, but it would be possible.

Sure you can scan a fingerprint, but not have it all linked together like you said. The networks arent nearly secure enough and the technology you would need just isnt ready. Theres no pratical way that it could be possible. You clearly lack any knowledge of the limitations to the technology available to us. It is not at all possible.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:43PM

Social welfare offices could probably be done but thats about the limit of it at the moment. We couldn't link government agencies in with public companies yet. If it were networked together right now, I could get a few lads from college and steal all the money in the country, there would be no form of protection in place. Computers arent secure enough.

delad · 01-07-2012 02:43PM

Dean09 wrote: »

So every time a car is sold on to someone else it has to be brought into a garage and it needs to be changed to match their fingerprint? And then what if you need to lend the car to someone? They can't start the car without your finger?
It's just an unrealistic, unworkable idea imo.

When the person buys the car off you, using their fingerprint of course, (remember cash and cards have been scrapped), then the car is automatically now registered in their profile and they can now start it. If the car is not being delivered for a few days or something, they can allow the previous owner to continue to use the car for that period, by putting a request in to the system when they make the purchase.

If you want to allow someone to borrow your car, then simply log into the system on your laptop and put in the request to allow that person to use your car for a certain period.

El Guapo! · 01-07-2012 02:44PM

Even if the technology for fingerprint or retina scans was widespread, it would all need to be linked together in one giant database to incorporate all the things mentioned in the op.
We all know the chaos for the last 2 weeks when ulster bank had a problem, can you imagine the pandemonium if something like this crashed!
Who knows, in the future this may well be implemented, but right now we don't have reliable enough technology to keep it operational.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:48PM

delad wrote: »

If you want to allow someone to borrow your car, then simply log into the system on your laptop and put in the request to allow that person to use your car for a certain period.

You couldn't possibly allow public access to a national database. Google, The C.I.A., Sony and LinkedIn all have the best security available in the world but they have all been hacked. Countries could easily just break into another countries systems and f*** everything up.

delad · 01-07-2012 02:48PM

GarIT wrote: »

Sure you can scan a fingerprint, but not have it all linked together like you said. The networks arent nearly secure enough

What I'm proposing isn't a huge amount removed to the current system the garda use for scanning fingerprints. All criminals have a profile on the database that can be accessed anywhere by scanning their fingerprint. My proposal is to get everyone on the system and link in with bank accounts. The system would be as secure as bank accounts are today, not full proof, but not any less secure than our current bank accounts are.

paddyandy · 01-07-2012 02:50PM

The Technology is there to remove Crime almost completely from Society .

crazygeryy · 01-07-2012 02:50PM

No not against them.but ill tell you what I am for.credit card style drivers licence.how hard is it to do ffs.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:51PM

Something like this will happen eventually and we are going in that direction but right now we can do it. no matter how many times you say it is just impossible and we don't have the technology to do it. Its not a simple as saying we have fingerprint scanners lets connect them together.

GarIT · 01-07-2012 02:55PM

delad wrote: »

What I'm proposing isn't a huge amount removed to the current system the garda use for scanning fingerprints. All criminals have a profile on the database that can be accessed anywhere by scanning their fingerprint. My proposal is to get everyone on the system and link in with bank accounts. The system would be as secure as bank accounts are today, not full proof, but not any less secure than our current bank accounts are.

You really don't know what your talking about, netwroking public sector with private would be extremely dificult and it would of course reduce security.

At the moment bank accounts work on a private network that just deals with money. If you have to link them to a publically available network like the internet it would give everyone in the world the ability to try to hack it, where at the moment you would have to get inside the bank first before you could attempt to do anything.

The Garda fingerprint scanners arent that secure at all, any Garda can see anything, once they are at a state computer and loged into the right places, it would open up the system to things like a gaurd being able to look up anyones reconrds on everything from their own home. The pysical location protects the Garda systems more than anything. The security on the computers isn't that amazing, if you made that publicaly accessable we would all be f*****.

You would need a background in Computer networking or security to realise how impossible it is. It will be introduced gradually in time, things are constantly becoming more connected but things are implimented as soon as they become possible, there is not much more possible right now than what we have at the moment.

seamus · 01-07-2012 02:59PM

Fingerprints can be forged, very easily. PINs and passwords are more secure than fingerprints because they can be changed at regular intervals to minimise the chance of theft.

You need something less fallible, like a retinal scan or possibly even a brain scan. The problem with retinal scans is that they're really only useful for low-level things which aren't of huge importance. If you're going to be securing a bank vault with a retinal scan, then someone who wants to get in badly enough will simply gouge the eyes out of the head of someone with access.
For all intents and purposes, fingerprints and retinas are "written down" and this makes them weak. A brain scan is less fallible, but it needs to be included in some form of two-factor authentication to ensure the person is conscious and willing.

You're also talking about a lot of crossover between government and private (e.g. bank) systems, which is rarely desirable because it gives a small number of people a scary amount of access to data.

delad · 01-07-2012 03:03PM

GarIT wrote: »

At the moment bank accounts work on a private network that just deals with money. If you have to link them to a publically available network like the internet it would give everyone in the world the ability to try to hack it,

You do realise all bank accounts these days have online access?! Anyone in the world has the potential to hack your account as it is.

Are you for or against national id cards/profiles?

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