Are you for or against national id cards/profiles?

delad

A lot of people seem to be against them, mostly liberal bed wetters. But if you have nothing to hide and don't break the law, then having national id's would make life so much easier.

- Imagine not having to have passports. You simply show up at the airport a few minutes before your flight leaves, scan your fingerprint at security and stroll on through. None of the tedious checking in, taking off shoes/belt at security, checking passports/tickets at the gate. None of that would be necessary because when you buy your airline ticket, its automatically added to your national id profile on the database, so one fingerprint scan at the airport is all thats needed. You would be listed on the database as being of no threat or little threat, so no searching at security would be needed for you, unless you have a criminal record or are otherwise listed as potentially being a threat.

- You would no longer need to carry id to get into clubs/bars, again just scan your fingerprint at the entrance and go on in.

- Your bank account could be linked to your national id, so all you need to do when buying something is scan your fingerprint. No more need for cash and debit cards anymore.

- No having to register to vote, you are automatically allowed to vote once you are the required age. Electronic voting would therefore be possible with no risk of fraud.

- When you buy a car, this is added to your national id on the database, and so only you can start the car with your fingerprint. Same goes for entering your house. So chance of theft/robberys are greatly reduced.

- Tax returns would be a thing of the past because all your income and purchases are automatically recorded on your profile on the database, so the system will ensure you are paying the right amount of tax. So you save fees and time on doing tax returns, also tax and benefit fraud would be a thing of the past.

- Applying for a mortgage would be an instantaneous process.

I'm sure there would be a ton of other benefits too which I couldn't be bothered thinking about.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

christmas2012

i think its a great idea if it cuts out fraud

AlmightyCushion

A national ID card does not work the way you think it does. Not even in the slightest.

delad

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

A national ID card does not work the way you think it does. Not even in the slightest.

it could work as long as our national profiles are linked with our bank accounts

delad

Aquila wrote: »

Needs a poll!

don't think I can add a poll now that the thread is posted

El Guapo!

Generally a great idea. But the whole starting your car with your fingerprint thing is not feasible.
If you've nothing to hide then you shouldn't worry about it. Unless you're into conspiracy theories.

christmas2012

linked to our bank accounts what if someone lets say a third party gets that information??

delad

christmas2012 wrote: »

linked to our bank accounts what if someone lets say a third party gets that information??

the risk of third parties getting that info would not be any greater than it is now

Sonics2k

As long as you 'opt in' for them, then I'm absolutely fine with it.

I'd probably get one myself depending on how useful it would actually be.

delad

Dean09 wrote: »

Generally a great idea. But the whole starting your car with your fingerprint thing is not feasible.

I don't see why not, the technology is there for this to be possible.

GarIT

A lot of what you have said is unrealistic. The technology isn't there for a good bit of what you have said. The whole country would have to be networked together at a cost of billions if not hundreds of billions, and it would eleminate any startup businesses if they cant afford the 20k that it could cost to get connected.

SocSocPol

delad wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be against them, mostly liberal bed wetters. But if you have nothing to hide and don't break the law, then having national id's would make life so much easier.

- Imagine not having to have passports. You simply show up at the airport a few minutes before your flight leaves, scan your fingerprint at security and stroll on through. None of the tedious checking in, taking off shoes/belt at security, checking passports/tickets at the gate. None of that would be necessary because when you buy your airline ticket, its automatically added to your national id profile on the database, so one fingerprint scan at the airport is all thats needed. You would be listed on the database as being of no threat or little threat, so no searching at security would be needed for you, unless you have a criminal record or are otherwise listed as potentially being a threat.

- You would no longer need to carry id to get into clubs/bars, again just scan your fingerprint at the entrance and go on in.

- Your bank account could be linked to your national id, so all you need to do when buying something is scan your fingerprint. No more need for cash and debit cards anymore.

- No having to register to vote, you are automatically allowed to vote once you are the required age. Electronic voting would therefore be possible with no risk of fraud.

- When you buy a car, this is added to your national id on the database, and so only you can start the car with your fingerprint. Same goes for entering your house. So chance of theft/robberys are greatly reduced.

- Tax returns would be a thing of the past because all your income and purchases are automatically recorded on your profile on the database, so the system will ensure you are paying the right amount of tax. So you save fees and time on doing tax returns, also tax and benefit fraud would be a thing of the past.

- Applying for a mortgage would be an instantaneous process.

I'm sure there would be a ton of other benefits too which I couldn't be bothered thinking about.

What a mature, intelligent and well thought out statement (not).
If you think thats how ID cards work then you have a lot to learn kiddo.

MrReynholm

Having a centralised database on people with the things you include, such as how they spend money, where they spend money, how much money they spend, what countries they go to, what kind of entertainment they enjoy, presumably things like their education and more is a receipe for abuse and I would absolutely be opposed to such a thing.

A national identity card is not that thing though, thankfully. Also, the argument of "if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about" doesn't hold much weight for me when it comes to an expectation or right to privacy and freedom. Such an attitude will have people give up more and more rights until they've none left to give up, and those rights will never be restored.

GarIT

delad wrote: »

I don't see why not, the technology is there for this to be possible.

Realisticlly its not.

El Weirdo

delad wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be against them, mostly liberal bed wetters. But if you have nothing to hide...

I stopped reading here.

El Guapo!

delad wrote: »

Dean09 wrote: »

Generally a great idea. But the whole starting your car with your fingerprint thing is not feasible.

I don't see why not, the technology is there for this to be possible.

So every time a car is sold on to someone else it has to be brought into a garage and it needs to be changed to match their fingerprint? And then what if you need to lend the car to someone? They can't start the car without your finger?
It's just an unrealistic, unworkable idea imo.

delad

GarIT wrote: »

A lot of what you have said is unrealistic. The technology isn't there for a good bit of what you have said.

The technology is there for fingerprint scanning. No government has used or talked about national ids in the way that I've outlined, but it would be possible.

GarIT

That would decsriminate against people without arms and make their life nearly impossible.

It would change robberies from someone stealing your phone and wallet to literally taking your hand.

GarIT

delad wrote: »

The technology is there for fingerprint scanning. No government has used or talked about national ids in the way that I've outlined, but it would be possible.

Sure you can scan a fingerprint, but not have it all linked together like you said. The networks arent nearly secure enough and the technology you would need just isnt ready. Theres no pratical way that it could be possible. You clearly lack any knowledge of the limitations to the technology available to us. It is not at all possible.

GarIT

Social welfare offices could probably be done but thats about the limit of it at the moment. We couldn't link government agencies in with public companies yet. If it were networked together right now, I could get a few lads from college and steal all the money in the country, there would be no form of protection in place. Computers arent secure enough.

delad

Dean09 wrote: »

So every time a car is sold on to someone else it has to be brought into a garage and it needs to be changed to match their fingerprint? And then what if you need to lend the car to someone? They can't start the car without your finger?
It's just an unrealistic, unworkable idea imo.

When the person buys the car off you, using their fingerprint of course, (remember cash and cards have been scrapped), then the car is automatically now registered in their profile and they can now start it. If the car is not being delivered for a few days or something, they can allow the previous owner to continue to use the car for that period, by putting a request in to the system when they make the purchase.

If you want to allow someone to borrow your car, then simply log into the system on your laptop and put in the request to allow that person to use your car for a certain period.

El Guapo!

Even if the technology for fingerprint or retina scans was widespread, it would all need to be linked together in one giant database to incorporate all the things mentioned in the op.
We all know the chaos for the last 2 weeks when ulster bank had a problem, can you imagine the pandemonium if something like this crashed!
Who knows, in the future this may well be implemented, but right now we don't have reliable enough technology to keep it operational.

GarIT

delad wrote: »

If you want to allow someone to borrow your car, then simply log into the system on your laptop and put in the request to allow that person to use your car for a certain period.

You couldn't possibly allow public access to a national database. Google, The C.I.A., Sony and LinkedIn all have the best security available in the world but they have all been hacked. Countries could easily just break into another countries systems and f*** everything up.

delad

GarIT wrote: »

Sure you can scan a fingerprint, but not have it all linked together like you said. The networks arent nearly secure enough

What I'm proposing isn't a huge amount removed to the current system the garda use for scanning fingerprints. All criminals have a profile on the database that can be accessed anywhere by scanning their fingerprint. My proposal is to get everyone on the system and link in with bank accounts. The system would be as secure as bank accounts are today, not full proof, but not any less secure than our current bank accounts are.

paddyandy

The Technology is there to remove Crime almost completely from Society .

crazygeryy

No not against them.but ill tell you what I am for.credit card style drivers licence.how hard is it to do ffs.

GarIT

Something like this will happen eventually and we are going in that direction but right now we can do it. no matter how many times you say it is just impossible and we don't have the technology to do it. Its not a simple as saying we have fingerprint scanners lets connect them together.

GarIT

delad wrote: »

What I'm proposing isn't a huge amount removed to the current system the garda use for scanning fingerprints. All criminals have a profile on the database that can be accessed anywhere by scanning their fingerprint. My proposal is to get everyone on the system and link in with bank accounts. The system would be as secure as bank accounts are today, not full proof, but not any less secure than our current bank accounts are.

You really don't know what your talking about, netwroking public sector with private would be extremely dificult and it would of course reduce security.

At the moment bank accounts work on a private network that just deals with money. If you have to link them to a publically available network like the internet it would give everyone in the world the ability to try to hack it, where at the moment you would have to get inside the bank first before you could attempt to do anything.

The Garda fingerprint scanners arent that secure at all, any Garda can see anything, once they are at a state computer and loged into the right places, it would open up the system to things like a gaurd being able to look up anyones reconrds on everything from their own home. The pysical location protects the Garda systems more than anything. The security on the computers isn't that amazing, if you made that publicaly accessable we would all be f*****.

You would need a background in Computer networking or security to realise how impossible it is. It will be introduced gradually in time, things are constantly becoming more connected but things are implimented as soon as they become possible, there is not much more possible right now than what we have at the moment.

seamus

Fingerprints can be forged, very easily. PINs and passwords are more secure than fingerprints because they can be changed at regular intervals to minimise the chance of theft.

You need something less fallible, like a retinal scan or possibly even a brain scan. The problem with retinal scans is that they're really only useful for low-level things which aren't of huge importance. If you're going to be securing a bank vault with a retinal scan, then someone who wants to get in badly enough will simply gouge the eyes out of the head of someone with access.
For all intents and purposes, fingerprints and retinas are "written down" and this makes them weak. A brain scan is less fallible, but it needs to be included in some form of two-factor authentication to ensure the person is conscious and willing.

You're also talking about a lot of crossover between government and private (e.g. bank) systems, which is rarely desirable because it gives a small number of people a scary amount of access to data.

delad

GarIT wrote: »

At the moment bank accounts work on a private network that just deals with money. If you have to link them to a publically available network like the internet it would give everyone in the world the ability to try to hack it,

You do realise all bank accounts these days have online access?! Anyone in the world has the potential to hack your account as it is.

GarIT

delad wrote: »

You do realise all bank accounts these days have online access?! Anyone in the world has the potential to hack your account as it is.

Thats done on a single account basis, you can hack one account yes, but the banks main systems are one a seperate network. Say you transfer money from one account to another, when you do that online you send a request to transfer the money to the server for the website, the webserver then sends the request onto the banks central computers which process the transfer. You at no point have access to the system that transfers the money.

You could crack the password on one account which is often done, but you could not access all the accounts at once.

GarIT

If you could get me a few hours inside the main computer room in the european central bank I could steal all the money in europe. The only real protection it has is its physical location, if everyone had access to it over a network connection we could all try to do whatever we want.

The main government databases in America have been hacked before, someone in china gor a list of thousands of names and social security numbers before they were shut down to protect themselves, because the only defense they has was to pull the power. Could you imagine if everyones bank accounts were linked into that too.

Fingerprints are stored in a numerical form. If I could get access to the database which lists the fingerprints of people, I could set up a line of code which would enter those numbers into whatever system without actually scanning the finger.

The posibilities for doing damage with a universally networked system are endless.

mahamageehad

One vital piece of stupidity that no-one else has seemed to pick up on, (apart from the feasibility of course!) i that according to delads proposal "good" people with no criminal record (now remember even the most hardcore violent criminals at one stage in their lives had no criminal record) would be allowed through airport security without being checked????

You would be listed on the database as being of no threat or little threat, so no searching at security would be needed for you, unless you have a criminal record or are otherwise listed as potentially being a threat.

Am what?? That is possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

Anyways if it's all as technological feasible as you've said why haven't the likes of Japan, who are years ahead of us technologically, already done something like this? Very good comment from Seamus that having them written down i.e. that you can't change your fingerprint makes them weak. Also what if you're in an accident and you lose a finger? Or you're a scientist, but not a very good one, and you pour hydrochloric acid over your fingertip obliterating part or all of the relevant fingerprint.

Even if, which it's not, this was possible there would be massive privacy and security issues. And a bad mark against someone when they were young ad stupid could lead them to discrimination for the rest of their lives. Google wallet is already struggling with security issues, or at least persuading people that the benefits outlay the risks!

Also you should edit the title as national ID cards do exactly what they say on the tin- they are cards, issued nationally by the government that confirm your identification. What you're proposing is something completely different!

Muir

I was actually thinking of that idea before, except like you know these smart cards you just scan like the leap card for buses? One of those that was ID, bank, credit card, everything. Then I thought having all that information together wouldn't be good if the system got hacked or something.

Shryke

Dean09 wrote: »

If you've nothing to hide then you shouldn't worry about it. Unless you're into conspiracy theories.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, it only takes some small amount of critical thinking and a brief glance at human history to see how something like the OP is suggesting could go very wrong and be abused.
This is stuff more suited to a utopia, which is something we will never have.

validusername1

But the reason people have to go through airport security is not to prove their identity? It's to prove they don't have anything illegal on them like weapons/drugs.. You're saying that providing a finger print will let the security know if you have those items on you or not? How does that even make sense? If you mean that a finger print will show you have no criminal record so that automatically makes you okay to go through security.. That's basically saying that I (someone with no criminal record) could load my suitcases with €1million worth of heroin, have knives and guns on me etc, and get on the airplane no bother and be no threat. It doesn't make sense..

xylophones

starting to sound an awful lot like the world described in orwells 1984 to me...
though the main problem i had with the op is that you cannot just let people onto planes without security checks due to the fact that convicted criminals were just normal people with no convictions until one day they did something to earn a conviction.is it really worth risking thousands of lives for the sake of convenience?

pseudofax

MrReynholm wrote: »

Having a centralised database on people with the things you include, such as how they spend money, where they spend money, how much money they spend, what countries they go to, what kind of entertainment they enjoy, presumably things like their education and more is a receipe for abuse and I would absolutely be opposed to such a thing.

A national identity card is not that thing though, thankfully. Also, the argument of "if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to worry about" doesn't hold much weight for me when it comes to an expectation or right to privacy and freedom. Such an attitude will have people give up more and more rights until they've none left to give up, and those rights will never be restored.

They already have this. Privacy is a myth. It does not exist in the modern era. Deep down, you know the Government practically knows when you take a ****, so don't pretend to ask surprised.

pseudofax

validusername1 wrote: »

But the reason people have to go through airport security is not to prove their identity? It's to prove they don't have anything illegal on them like weapons/drugs.. You're saying that providing a finger print will let the security know if you have those items on you or not? How does that even make sense? If you mean that a finger print will show you have no criminal record so that automatically makes you okay to go through security.. That's basically saying that I (someone with no criminal record) could load my suitcases with €1million worth of heroin, have knives and guns on me etc, and get on the airplane no bother and be no threat. It doesn't make sense..

The reason people go through security at an airport is to give the impression they are actually trying to stop criminals, that and a reason to **** with you. Any oppurtunity they can get, they will fcuk with you. To show who is boss. To the Government, you are just a commodity to be traded on the market.

Unless fullproof airport security becomes a reality, it's all a trick and pony show. It provides jobs for people who aren't intelligent enough to graviatate to more important fields of work.

ManMade

There should be an optional one for people. But really when they bring in the plastic card driving license I believe many people will use it as a type of national id card anyway.

eth0

OP works for biometrics company?

Biometrics is a load of shoite, like a password that you can't change without surgery. National ID cards = ushering the big brother society and I can't believe people are still going on about nothing to hide in a time when you couldn't trust any given government as far as you could throw them

Run_to_da_hills

One reason why we should be concerned about high tech invasive ID cards.

History looks like it could be repeating itself.

"German newspaper Die Welt compares Eurozone crisis with 1930s slump that ushered in Hitler"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165419/German-newspaper-Die-Welt-compares-Eurozone-crisis-1930s-slump-ushered-Hitler.html

Nodin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

One reason why we should be concerned about high tech invasive ID cards.

History looks like it could be repeating itself.

"German newspaper Die Welt compares Eurozone crisis with 1930s slump that ushered in Hitler"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165419/German-newspaper-Die-Welt-compares-Eurozone-crisis-1930s-slump-ushered-Hitler.html

You're so right. Any day now....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f88DAXzcozo

Peetrik

Or better than cards that you have to carry around (hassle)... why not a micro chipped population with zones that you are or arn't allowed into depending on how much money you have.
Obviously the more money you have to protect then the better the police force in your eligible zones.
If you have nothing to hide you won't mind being microchipped like cattle will you?

Run_to_da_hills

Peetrik wrote: »

Or better than cards that you have to carry around (hassle)... why not a micro chipped population with zones that you are or arn't allowed into depending on how much money you have.
Obviously the more money you have to protect then the better the police force in your eligible zones.
If you have nothing to hide you won't mind being microchipped like cattle will you?

That's the master plan.

NFC / RFID hardware share the same 13.56 mhz frequency as implantable microchips.

monkeypants

This is the funniest opening post I've read all day. I haven't witnessed such delusion over technology since they stopped showing Tomorrow's World. Comedy gold, OP, really top drawer. As soon as the pain in my stomach goes away, I'll read the rest of the thread.

Anita Blow

Blood boils when I see that ****ing ridiculous "If you have nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear" argument. You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to understand that privacy is a basic human right. The whole argument is based on the false premise that people only keep things private because they believe that what they are keeping secret is an illegal act.
Honestly I fear for the future if our kids are going to be brainwashed into the idea that people only keep things secret because they're doing something illegal. Starting to look more and more like 1984 by the day.
"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both."- Ben Franklin

Chuck Stone

The OP is a slave who is asking for stronger chains.

Fupping Grasshole

delad wrote: »

But if you have nothing to hide

I might have nothing to hide now but who's to say I won't have something to hide tomorrow.

purplepapillon

I just got the new national ID card. It's just a PPS card, with a picture, signature and chip (I don't know what for) on it. It is linked to your birth cert. (they had a copy of the last line of mine) and to your passport. I was in the social welfare office on the day they began "making" them, their equipment didn't work for ages, so they had to input data a different way. The kind of ID card the OP suggests won't be in for centuries at the rate this office were working Personally, I'd be against such a thing linking to any bank accounts, cars or purchase of any other assets. It's invasive to say the least. The chances of such a system being hacked into seem high, the data alone would be worth millions to multi-nationals always vying for their market share and wondering how best to achieve it. A direction we're headed in, but not for a good long while I hope.