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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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    #1712
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    doctoremma wrote: »
    The application of "meaning" to anything is entirely subjective and people on either side can both have clear and rational reasons for forming their opinion.



    Yes we know pro-choice is entirely Subjective. Which you could apply this to say the Existence of God. You can't apply subjectivity to humanity. You need to apply objectivity. Objectively life begins at conception. When a women who has missed her period takes the test and tells her husband/BF that she is having a baby.... she is not saying I have some cells that may become a child..


    You try to turn a morally wrong act into something you think is ok. Like some married men convince themselves its fine to pay for sex, she is an adult. Or like drug dealers see no problem dealing.. or rapists rapping.

    Many people in their subjective mind think various things are ok. Reality is that to decide to kill your child objectively is not right. Its killing a unique human being.

    Christians should never tolerate abortion. Christians should never tolerate the principal of the so called "right" to abortion. Which is intentionally targeting the Child and ending its life. No Matter what state its development, no matter what conditions it could have, not matter what sex it is.


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    #1713
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Yes we know pro-choice is entirely Subjective. Which you could apply this to say the Existence of God. You can't apply subjectivity to humanity. You need to apply objectivity. Objectively life begins at conception. When a women who has missed her period takes the test and tells her husband/BF that she is having a baby.... she is not saying I have some cells that may become a child..


    You try to turn a morally wrong act into something you think is ok. Like some married men convince themselves its fine to pay for sex, she is an adult. Or like drug dealers see no problem dealing.. or rapists rapping.

    Many people in their subjective mind think various things are ok. Reality is that to decide to kill your child objectively is not right. Its killing a unique human being.

    Christians should never tolerate abortion. Christians should never tolerate the principal of the so called "right" to abortion. Which is intentionally targeting the Child and ending its life. No Matter what state its development, no matter what conditions it could have, not matter what sex it is.

    Of course this is your subjective opinion of objectivity . May I ask would you also class contraception and the morning after as objectively wrong ?


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    #1714
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Documentary "Blood Money" and the plan to sell abortion by a former abortion provider.



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    #1715
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Documentary "Blood Money" and the plan to sell abortion by a former abortion provider.



    OMG.. This is harrowing. I already raised the money and profit aspect of the Abortion industry but this puts it in a whole new context.


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    #1716
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    OMG.. This is harrowing. I already raised the money and profit aspect of the Abortion industry but this puts it in a whole new context.


    You have a major concern for the money and profit aspect , but that is what makes possible most every thing in the world in which we live, . Do you have an issue with privating nursing homes and private hospitals ? Or even public ones ? as ultimately even those are supported by taxes raised in ''industry''

    How about an answer to my question to you on contraception and the morning after pill ?


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    #1717
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    You have a major concern for the money and profit aspect , but that is what makes possible most every thing in the world in which we live, . Do you have an issue with privating nursing homes and private hospitals ? Or even public ones ? as ultimately even those are supported by taxes raised in ''industry''

    How about an answer to my question to you on contraception and the morning after pill ?

    Did you watch the movie? Start to finish before you posted the above?


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    #1718
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    I took the older comments about how people should accept the consequences of sex to mean that contraception and esp. the morning after pill aren't looked upon favourably.


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    #1719
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    Documentary "Blood Money" and the plan to sell abortion by a former abortion provider.


    Her book is selling on Amazon.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0880705485/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used


    also recommend

    http://www.amazon.com/Unplanned-Dramatic-Planned-Parenthood-Eye-Opening/dp/1414339399/ref=pd_rhf_ee_shvl1


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    #1720
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Did you watch the movie? Start to finish before you posted the above?

    Of course !! Now will you answer my questions on nursing homes/profit motive etc and contraceptio and morning after pill


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    #1721
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    Of course !! Now will you answer my questions on nursing homes/profit motive etc and contraceptio and morning after pill


    On Contraception why not open a new Thread to discuss.

    Morning after Pill is an abortive. As a Christian I think you know full well where I stand..

    Now So you are comparing Abortion clinics run by organisation who also give young people free contraception (Lowest does pill and cheap condoms) the organisation who council the Girls into an abortion to profit from it?? Do you not fail to see the immorality of it? Like a drug dealer giving free hits to get people addicted.

    If you had listened to the movie I am astounded you are supporting this ..

    What has nursing homes making profit got to do with an organisation with promotes girls getting pregnant by giving them contraception they know only has a 80% success rate.??

    I am not surprised at all. Abortion is a business. They need to clinics to be working so they drum up business. At least in Ireland we don't have these so called "services".


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    #1722
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    No, we don't have abortion 'pushers' in Ireland so you can't claim that the dozen or more Irish women travelling for abortion every day have been pushed into doing so by unscrupulous business people.


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    #1723
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Morning after Pill is an abortive. As a Christian I think you know full well where I stand...

    One of the mechanisms of action of the oral contraceptive pill is to effect changes to the endometrial lining that reduces the likelihood of implantation of an embryo in the uterus.

    Where, then, do you stand on the oral contraceptive pill?


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    #1724
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    No, we don't have abortion 'pushers' in Ireland so you can't claim that the dozen or more Irish women travelling for abortion every day have been pushed into doing so by unscrupulous business people.


    They are being pushed by the information made available to them. You don't need to look far to find those offering the services. Or they are being pushed by their parents.

    Type abortion in Google.ie and paid clinic is first in line, This their price list.




    Euro Sterling Early Medical Abortion (abortion pill) up to 9 weeks €320 £280 Abortion up to 14 weeks (local & general anaesthetic) €480 £400 Abortion 14 weeks + €670 £560

    Its all about money at the end of the day..


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    #1725
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    They are being pushed by the information made available to them. You don't need to look far to find those offering the services. Or they are being pushed by their parents.

    Type abortion in Google.ie and paid clinic is first in line, This their price list.




    Euro Sterling Early Medical Abortion (abortion pill) up to 9 weeks €320 £280 Abortion up to 14 weeks (local & general anaesthetic) €480 £400 Abortion 14 weeks + €670 £560

    Its all about money at the end of the day..

    So I take it you would also make illegal the provision of any information on abortion ?


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    #1726
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    So I take it you would also make illegal the provision of any information on abortion ?

    If there was sponsored information available on how to commit suicide.. there would be uproar. Yet for killing a Child?

    I am no so naive as to think you can stop information flow. That does not mean I agree with it.


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    #1727
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If there was sponsored information available on how to commit suicide.. there would be uproar. Yet for killing a Child?

    I am no so naive as to think you can stop information flow. That does not mean I agree with it.

    If you could legally stop women travelling abroad for an abortion, would you ?


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    #1728
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    If you could legally stop women travelling abroad for an abortion, would you ?

    Abortion is murdering an innocent life. I thought I made it clear. Should you allow murder?


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    #1729
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/cancer-mom-refuses-abortion-nominated-walmarts-mom-of-the-year


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    #1730
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    You need to apply objectivity. Objectively life begins at conception.

    This nonsense again. How many times, I mean seriously these are not difficult concepts ...

    There is no objective definition of "life". Humans came up with a definition of "life" in order to describe the interesting chemical reactions that you, me, bacteria and that oak tree are doing and to try and differentiate these chemical reactions from the more boring ones such as rust. But even then there are multiple definitions of what a life form are that vary depending on what criteria you are focusing on. Don't believe me just get into the debate over whether a virus is alive or not.

    "Life" begins at conception if you define life as beginning at conception. It is an entirely circular and self serving definition. To pretend it is some how objectively true is utter nonsense, like claiming the Atlantic ocean objectively starts at Malin Head.

    At the end of the day the only objective thing you can say about conception is what happens at conception, the physical processes that take place. Saying anything starts or begins will be entirely dependent on what criteria you are using to judge a start.

    Personally I think the idea that life "begins" is utterly nonsensical. At no point where your parents dead or not a live before you were born. At no point where their cells not alive. The sperm cell was alive as was the egg cell. Life as would commonly be defined does not begin at conception, it began 4.6 billion years ago and hasn't stopped since. It is a self sustaining chemical reaction and has been self sustaining itself for billions of years, at no point stopping or beginning other than when it first began. The chemical reaction that sustains you never stopped. You do not have a separate self sustaining chemical reaction that began just for you. You are part of the same one that is sustaining all live across the planet and has been for billions of years. It was constantly on going and will continue in your off spring after you are dead. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that in the middle of a massive warehouse fire one tiny patch of fire surrounded by all the other other fire just "began" to be on fire, separate to the wider fire.

    But again that all depends on how you define "life". And that will always be subjective. The only objective claims that can be made are about the chemical reactions that take place and when they take place. How we classify them are entirely up to us.


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    #1731
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Zombrex wrote: »
    This nonsense again. How many times, I mean seriously these are not difficult concepts ...

    The nonsense is you trying to deny biology. Human Life, the Person. Begins at conception.

    According to this elementary definition of life, life begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte. From this moment, the being is highly organized, has the ability to acquire materials and energy, has the ability to respond to his or her environment, has the ability to adapt, and has the ability to reproduce (the cells divide, then divide again, etc., and barring pathology and pending reproductive maturity has the potential to reproduce other members of the species). Non-living things do not do these things. Even before the mother is aware that she is pregnant, a distinct, unique life has begun his or her existence inside her.


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    #1732
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Abortion is murdering an innocent life. I thought I made it clear. Should you allow murder?

    So let me understand this - If you could you would make illegal -

    all forms of contraceptive, the morning after pill, the right to information on abortion, the right to travel to another jurisdiction for an abortion and of course abortion it self.

    I think we can add stem cell research etc.


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    #1733
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    The nonsense is you trying to deny biology. Human Life, the Person. Begins at conception.

    So what is your position on the oral contraceptive pill?


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    #1734
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    So let me understand this - If you could you would make illegal -

    all forms of contraceptive, the morning after pill, the right to information on abortion, the right to travel to another jurisdiction for an abortion and of course abortion it self.

    I think we can add stem cell research etc.


    Lets keep this on topic. The Thread is about abortion. Which is morally wrong. Intentionally targeting a pregnancy that exists.

    Stop going off on a tangent on contraception. Open a thread on it.


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    #1735
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    Zombrex wrote: »
    This nonsense again. How many times, I mean seriously these are not difficult concepts ...

    There is no objective definition of "life". Humans came up with a definition of "life" in order to describe the interesting chemical reactions that you, me, bacteria and that oak tree are doing and to try and differentiate these chemical reactions from the more boring ones such as rust. But even then there are multiple definitions of what a life form are that vary depending on what criteria you are focusing on. Don't believe me just get into the debate over whether a virus is alive or not.

    "Life" begins at conception if you define life as beginning at conception. It is an entirely circular and self serving definition. To pretend it is some how objectively true is utter nonsense, like claiming the Atlantic ocean objectively starts at Malin Head.

    At the end of the day the only objective thing you can say about conception is what happens at conception, the physical processes that take place. Saying anything starts or begins will be entirely dependent on what criteria you are using to judge a start.

    Personally I think the idea that life "begins" is utterly nonsensical. At no point where your parents dead or not a live before you were born. At no point where their cells not alive. The sperm cell was alive as was the egg cell. Life as would commonly be defined does not begin at conception, it began 4.6 billion years ago and hasn't stopped since. It is a self sustaining chemical reaction and has been self sustaining itself for billions of years, at no point stopping or beginning other than when it first began. The chemical reaction that sustains you never stopped. You do not have a separate self sustaining chemical reaction that began just for you. You are part of the same one that is sustaining all live across the planet and has been for billions of years. It was constantly on going and will continue in your off spring after you are dead. Claiming otherwise is like claiming that in the middle of a massive warehouse fire one tiny patch of fire surrounded by all the other other fire just "began" to be on fire, separate to the wider fire.

    But again that all depends on how you define "life". And that will always be subjective. The only objective claims that can be made are about the chemical reactions that take place and when they take place. How we classify them are entirely up to us.



    Ah you're right Zombrex, "life" is only a definition. Sure hitler didnt really kill all those people, he just transformed them into another type of life, their molecules are now worms and daisies:rolleyes:


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    #1736
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    The nonsense is you trying to deny biology. Human Life, the Person. Begins at conception.

    According to this elementary definition of life, life begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte.

    And who came up with this elementary definition of life?
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    From this moment, the being is highly organized, has the ability to acquire materials and energy, has the ability to respond to his or her environment, has the ability to adapt, and has the ability to reproduce (the cells divide, then divide again, etc., and barring pathology and pending reproductive maturity has the potential to reproduce other members of the species). Non-living things do not do these things.

    So the sperm and egg are non-living. Which means they cannot do the things you list. Which means you shouldn't exist. Which of course is stupid because you do exist and you got here by a sperm and egg cell reproducing.

    The sperm and egg cells can reproduce (again if they could not you wouldn't exist), they simply do it differently to normal cells. Any definition of life beginning at conception requires that the sperm and egg cells are some how non life, which means abiogenesis happens a couple of million times a day across the globe. Which again is stupid.


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    #1737
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    [

    Stop going off on a tangent on contraception. Open a thread on it.
    It is not off topic. You consider killing the conceptus to be murder. The ocp kills the conceptus.


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    #1738
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Lets keep this on topic. The Thread is about abortion. Which is morally wrong. Intentionally targeting a pregnancy that exists.

    Stop going off on a tangent on contraception. Open a thread on it.

    Why ? because it dos'nt suit your argument ?

    Contraception is intentionally targeting the occurance of a pregnancy .

    Contraception is directly linked to abortion in that better education and advice and more available contraception is the only solution to abortion.


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    #1739
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Zombrex wrote: »
    And who came up with this elementary definition of life?

    So the sperm and egg are non-living. Which means they cannot do the things you list. Which means you shouldn't exist. Which of course is stupid because you do exist and you got here by a sperm and egg cell reproducing.

    The sperm and egg cells can reproduce (again if they could not you wouldn't exist), they simply do it differently to normal cells. Any definition of life beginning at conception requires that the sperm and egg cells are some how non life, which means abiogenesis happens a couple of million times a day across the globe. Which again is stupid.


    Send a sample of an aborted fetus to a laboratory and have them test the DNA to see if its human or not. Genetically, a new human being comes into existence from the earliest moment of conception.


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    #1740
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    Why ? because it dos'nt suit your argument ?

    Contraception is intentionally targeting the occurance of a pregnancy .

    Contraception is directly linked to abortion in that better education and advice and more available contraception is the only solution to abortion.


    Sure. Did you not see the movie linked before? Who was giving the girls contraception?

    You have to admit in 2012 Ireland that contraception is very widely and easily available.

    Its not the "only" solution to abortion. Why not teach commitment? What is wrong waiting for the right person? Sex does not have to be the after dinner mint of a night out.

    I personally blame more the young male culture in Ireland which is going out to "score" on the weekend. Sex with x number of girls the bragging right.

    Why is it wrong to propose commitment and love in a relationship as the best way to avoid an abortion? Emotionally sex is better in a committed relationship. All contraception does for a young girl is saying she can experiment without getting pregnant and makes sex cheap. All the while opening up to other risks emotionally and STD wise.


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    #1741
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    They are being pushed by the information made available to them. You don't need to look far to find those offering the services. Or they are being pushed by their parents.

    Type abortion in Google.ie and paid clinic is first in line, This their price list.




    Euro Sterling Early Medical Abortion (abortion pill) up to 9 weeks €320 £280 Abortion up to 14 weeks (local & general anaesthetic) €480 £400 Abortion 14 weeks + €670 £560

    Its all about money at the end of the day..


    If the information is sought then it isn't being pushed on anyone- what rubbish!


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