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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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    #1622
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Doctor in London to my wife after she has german measles. His exact words when asked what could be done. " you may want to consider a termination"
    That does not in any way constitute evidence of a government policy to recommend an abortion if a child will be born disabled. Try again? Maybe a quick look through the Con-Lib policy handbooks would be a good place to start?

    In fact, your anecdote doesn't even constitute evidence of an individual recommending an abortion, let alone a government.


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    #1623
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Evidence or retract.

    So you may as well just retract.

    Doctor in London to my wife after she has german measles. His exact words when asked what could be done. " you may want to consider a termination"


    Why does the uk offer prenatal testing ?

    Research from the U.K. suggests that for most women -- more than 90 percent studied -- would have an abortion if she knew she were having a baby with Down syndrome. Thus the test.....


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    #1624
    MaxSteele
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭MaxSteele


    Abortion is legal in every other western or developed nation with Poland being the one with exceptions. India, Central Asia i.e Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, India, China, S Africa, Tunisia, Turkey, Vietnam, Thailand, The US, Canada. Abortion is legal.

    Basically any woman here seeking an abortion is spoiled for choice abroad. Literally. All it takes is a plane ticket.

    You don't agree with it ? Fine. That's your belief. But if someone who has used all pre cautions, doesn't feel ready financially, emotionally and for age/maturity reasons .. well then it's not your business what they do with a life changing decision. It's quite embarrassing to think we're the only developed country still debating an issue which is more a nuisance than an actual deterrent for women.


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    #1625
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Why does the uk offer prenatal testing ?
    Prenatal testing isn't just for Down Syndrome. All manner of problems can detected through a variety of examinations, to allow the parents the ability to make a fully informed choice about the future. Many treatment/surgical options can be put into place with such diagnoses e.g. emergency heart surgery after birth.

    And your evidence please, that there is a government policy to recommend abortion to the parents of a child likely to be born disabled?


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    #1626
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Even if a doctor recommended abortion to the parents of a child who's likely/certain to be born disabled, it's up to the parents to make the choice. They're the ones who are going to be bringing up the child.


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    #1627
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    This link from the NHS, a UK Government sponsored and funded organization, makes for interesting reading.

    It would appear that if you opt for a late term abortion you have the option of holding your baby after the delivery and giving them a name, or having a photo taken if you don't want to see him or her after the birth but may want to later.


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    #1628
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Festus wrote: »
    It would appear that if you opt for a late term abortion you have the option of holding your baby after the delivery and giving them a name, or having a photo taken if you don't want to see him or her after the birth but may want to later.
    Why of particular interest? Late term abortions are rare and usually performed under extremely emotional circumstances for very distressing reasons. It seems reasonable that a couple might choose to see their child if they wish?


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    #1629
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Festus wrote: »
    This link from the NHS, a UK Government sponsored and funded organization, makes for interesting reading.

    It would appear that if you opt for a late term abortion you have the option of holding your baby after the delivery and giving them a name, or having a photo taken if you don't want to see him or her after the birth but may want to later.

    You know, it's really really tragic reading stuff like that, and to think that's how people deal with this in the real world.


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    #1630
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,567 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Festus wrote: »
    This link from the NHS, a UK Government sponsored and funded organization, makes for interesting reading.

    It would appear that if you opt for a late term abortion you have the option of holding your baby after the delivery and giving them a name, or having a photo taken if you don't want to see him or her after the birth but may want to later.
    Are you saying that option should not be provided? Women who procure an abortion should be told "no, you can't hold it, name it or get a photo"?

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    #1631
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    28064212 wrote: »
    Are you saying that option should not be provided? Women who procure an abortion should be told "no, you can't hold it, name it or get a photo"?

    The problem is that it undermines the belief that the unborn child is not actually a child. Or as some pro-choicers would argue, not even alive prior to a termination.


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    #1632
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,567 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    philologos wrote: »
    The problem is that it undermines the belief that the unborn child is not actually a child.
    It doesn't actually, unless you hold that belief in in the first place.

    Are you saying they should not provide the option?

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    #1633
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    philologos wrote: »
    You know, it's really really tragic reading stuff like that, and to think that's how people deal with this in the real world.

    Yes.. Its a sad world. One thing is knowing you child may die because of a condition... Another choosing to kill it.


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    #1634
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    philologos wrote: »
    The problem is that it undermines the belief that the unborn child is not actually a child. Or as some pro-choicers would argue, not even alive prior to a termination.
    As above, abortions at this stage are usually the result of a desperate situation where most parents would definitely view their child as a child. Rather remarkably, some people access abortions despite believing their child is child.


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    #1635
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    28064212 wrote: »
    It doesn't actually, unless you hold that belief in in the first place.

    Are you saying they should not provide the option?

    Most pro-choicers on boards.ie would argue that.

    Personally, I'm pro-life and as a natural consequence of that I wouldn't be able to offer this option unless this was live threatening to the mother. I genuinely believe that people should not be condemned to death prior to living.
    doctoremma wrote: »
    As above, abortions at this stage are usually the result of a desperate situation where most parents would definitely view their child as a child. Rather remarkably, some people access abortions despite believing their child is child.

    The problem is the stage is irrelevant, the same human life has been growing and developing since day 1.


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    #1636
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    I personally, think that would be a bit weird and bizarre.

    But, when thinking about it I can see the point of it. It could be a comfort factor, or a way of connecting with a child that they lost for one reason or another.

    I have heard of cases where a child that was miscarried, or died during birth, has been named by the parent and even had photo's taken.


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    #1637
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sonics2k: There is a stark difference between an abortion and a miscarriage.


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    #1638
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,567 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    philologos wrote: »
    Most pro-choicers on boards.ie would argue that.
    Would argue what? If you believed it was not a life, the option of having a photo/holding it/naming it would not change your mind. If you believed it was a life, the option of having a photo/holding it/naming it would not change your mind.

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    #1639
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    I'm completely aware of that, I really am.

    In fact this whole issue is not one I take lightly, hence why I continue to return.

    I simply said I can see why a person would want to do it, if the option was given, as it apparently the case.
    What the NHS is doing is, in it's own way, a kind gesture for the mental health of the parent, allowing them the option of seeing their child.

    Again, it all comes down to choices, options and free will. I already said I wouldn't like to do it, but there are people who would.


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    #1640
    Plowman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Plowman


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1641
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Because this is mainly based around late-term abortions Plowman. The child now has brainwaves, a heartbeat, movement and so on.

    For fear of repeating myself, I support early-term abortion under strict circumstances.


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    #1642
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    philologos wrote: »
    Most pro-choicers on boards.ie would argue that.
    I don't know ANY pro-choicers who would argue it. It's a ridiculous argument if they do, based only on semantics.
    philologos wrote: »
    The problem is the stage is irrelevant, the same human life has been growing and developing since day 1.
    The stage is not irrelevant to the parents nor to the law makers. Choosing an early stage abortion 'on demand' is a very different choice to parents faced with losing a profoundly-disabled child who was dearly wanted.


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    #1643
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Because this is mainly based around late-term abortions Plowman. The child now has brainwaves, a heartbeat, movement and so on.

    For fear of repeating myself, I support early-term abortion under strict circumstances.

    It's still the same human life. That's why I think excuse making on the grounds of development is poor.

    On the same logic, I could claim that a life is not truly alive until it can juggle 6724 pomegranates, while unicycling up Mt Kilamanjaro while singing a harmonic Slovenian sonnet.

    We all know that is arbitrary. Just as the standard that you've suggested is.

    We know biologically that the foetus is alive, we don't need these arbitrary standards to tell us.
    28064212 wrote: »
    Would argue what? If you believed it was not a life, the option of having a photo/holding it/naming it would not change your mind. If you believed it was a life, the option of having a photo/holding it/naming it would not change your mind.

    They would argue the false claim that the foetus is actually not a human life.


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    #1644
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    doctoremma wrote: »
    I don't know ANY pro-choicers who would argue it. It's a ridiculous argument if they do, based only on semantics.


    The stage is not irrelevant to the parents nor to the law makers. Choosing an early stage abortion 'on demand' is a very different choice to parents faced with losing a profoundly-disabled child who was dearly wanted.

    There is a world of difference loosing a child and choosing to abort your child.


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    #1645
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    There is a world of difference loosing a child and choosing to abort your child.
    Evidence for the UK government policy that recommends abortion in the case of a disabled child?


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    #1646
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    28064212 wrote: »
    Are you saying that option should not be provided? Women who procure an abortion should be told "no, you can't hold it, name it or get a photo"?

    Not at all and it would be preferable for the option to be made available for all abortions and not just late term.


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    #1647
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    doctoremma wrote: »
    The stage is not irrelevant to the parents nor to the law makers. Choosing an early stage abortion 'on demand' is a very different choice to parents faced with losing a profoundly-disabled child who was dearly wanted.

    One of the problems is that profound disablement is not the criteria. There are many trisomy 21 individuals who lead fulfilling lives for example.


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    #1648
    Festus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Evidence for the UK government policy that recommends abortion in the case of a disabled child?

    The fact that the NHS presents it as an option is a clear indicator of government sentiment.

    The fact that the UK law allows abortion for eugenic reasons is another.


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    #1649
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,567 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Festus wrote: »
    The fact that the NHS presents it as an option is a clear indicator of government sentiment.
    They also present abortion as an option for babies that do not have any problems. Does that mean the government policy is to abort every baby?

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    #1650
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Festus wrote: »
    The fact that the NHS presents it as an option is a clear indicator of government sentiment.
    No it isn't. The NHS is a government-funded body which acts semi-autonomously within the legal framework provided by a government. The UK government has created a law which allows abortion at different stages under different circumstances. The NHS interprets this law as befits its care of duty to its patients.

    Do you (or GRGGGAUA letters) have any evidence that it is UK government policy to recommend abortion for disabled children?

    Of course you don't, because it's not true. It's not government policy at all and nor should it be. When you look carefully at the statement, you'd see how ridiculous it is. Do you think other countries/UN would allow it to pass as government policy? Do you think the people would vote for a party with such policies? Debate is one thing, a bit of passion and anger can be OK, but hysteria and hyperbole make people look stupid.

    Re eugenics: you keep using that word but I do not think it means what you think it means.


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    #1651
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Plowman wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The manner in which you deal with the emotional side of any abortion is none of anyone's business. On the one hand people complain if a woman is seen to be insouciant or matter of fact about it, on the other hand people make an issue out of the desire to see or hold the baby in the case of a late term abortion.


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