Where do you stand on legalising assisted death?

Odysseus · 27-06-2012 05:22PM

After nursing my own Dad through the last few months of his life the comes a time when it needs to be done. As far as I'm concerned the Hospice help my Dad move on, after spending a night with him crying on my shoulder due to the pain he was in no matter how much morphine I gave him, I have no problem with it.

shopaholic01 · 27-06-2012 05:25PM

Pushtrak wrote: »

Surprised how no one has voiced up against it. Sorry to disappoint but I'm not going to buck the trend. Think it should be the right of an individual to decide they want to give up existence.

Obviously there would have to be an expressed wish from the patient in the form of a living will before it was allowed. Otherwise it would be unethical and open to abuse.

Jame Gumb wrote: »

What if a cure for the relevant disease or condition is subsequently discovered?

Trivial aside, but didn't this happen to Dr McCoy and his father in one of the later Star Trek movies (Bones helped his father to die and a cure was discovered shortly after).

It takes years of clinical trials before medication is approved for use, so that situation is highly unlikely.

It's also worth mentioning that in some cases families are given the option to place a 'do not resuscitate' order on a loved one - this is effectively making a life or death decision on behalf of someone else.

A_Sober_Paddy · 27-06-2012 05:27PM

I think anyone who wants to die should be allowed, I'm mainly referring to people who suffer from long term illness and sickness.

Nothingbetter2d · 27-06-2012 05:31PM

i saw my grandfather's health deteriorate really fast having had 3 strokes about a month apart.

i'll never forget the day i drove him in to hospital when he was having the first stroke... the doctor handed him a pill and told him to swallow it... my grandfather looked at me and started to cry cos he couldn't swallow it and he knew it.... like ALL but 1 of his siblings who had strokes and died later, (the other sibling died from MS after 30 years of lying in a nursing home bed paralyzed from the neck down), he knew his time had run out. he lost his speech, being able to swallow, and the use of his right arm and needed a feeding tube inserted to his stomach. To help him with communication i gave him my old laptop and set it up for disability mode. he would type with his good hand when he wanted something. Not ideal but at least it made him feel human again.

a few weeks later he had the second stroke and lost the use of his left leg, and required nappies and was transferred to a nursing home. the 3rd stroke happened about a month after that and he just gave up completely and let go. RIP Grandad.

I'm glad he went relatively quickly... his suffering was not as long as what some of the other posters have spoke about but i would hate to find myself in my grandad's position.

It was really only my granny, my parents, 1 aunt, and myself that he had to rely on cos the rest of my mum's siblings are chronic alcoholics incapable of looking after themselves. That said i would hate to be a burden on my family like that. They would look after me out of love but its a tough ask and not very fair on them.

Jame Gumb · 27-06-2012 05:32PM

[Quote=shopaholic01;79438795

Jame Gumb wrote: »

What if a cure for the relevant disease or condition is subsequently discovered?

Trivial aside, but didn't this happen to Dr McCoy and his father in one of the later Star Trek movies (Bones helped his father to die and a cure was discovered shortly after).

It takes years of clinical trials before medication is approved for use, so that situation is highly unlikely[/Quote]

How do patients / family not know that a cure isn't about to be approved then?

Ultimately I think that the decision should rest with the compos mentis patient.

Tricky area though.

shopaholic01 · 27-06-2012 05:36PM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

How do patients / family not know that a cure isn't about to be approved then?

Ultimately I think that the decision should rest with the compos mentis patient.

Tricky area though.

Prior to being made publically available, medication is tested on patients who are deemed to be terminally ill (after initial tests on animals etc.). A patent would also be applied for it to prevent other pharmaceutical companies copying it.

Medical staff will be aware of this, in a lot of cases it will also be widely covered in the media.

So if a new cure is going to be launched it will not come as a surprise, it will be widely anticipated.

steddyeddy · 27-06-2012 05:49PM

Well for all my complaints about the way we treat animals in this case animals are treated more humanly than humans. We can put down a horse or any pet because its humane. I dont see why we dont extend the human animal the same mercy.

Odysseus · 27-06-2012 05:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If an animal is sick or has little chance of a full life, we put them to sleep. Why can't human beings be given the same right?

Yeah I remember the second last night I was on the phone to the hospice every 45 mins to get permission to give him more morphine. We also had MST morphine tabs, due to my work I know a lot about these. They used to be very popular with addicts.

Anyway I was pissed off pumping him full of his liquid morphine, I took out two spoons and basically got the tabs into an injectable state. Checked his veins etc, then came the fear, he was that sick I would have left a bruise at the injection site, would I get pulled on it? what if I gave him too much and it killed him, though I reckon I had the dose needed just to stop his pain.

Anyway I bottled it and said I would ring the hospice again and seek permission to give him more liquid morphine, they said go ahead. I then say fcuk it if that doesn't work I'm giving him the injection IV. Thankfully after 20mins it eventually working and I emptied the iv morphine into the sink.

Really not just for me, but people should not have to experience that, never mind what my dad was experiencing.

The comes a stage when people need to be allow to go with their dignity, or as much of it as possible

GastroBoy · 28-06-2012 10:52AM

Out of interest, I added a poll to this thread.

The Master of Disaster · 28-06-2012 11:07AM

Everybody should have the right to do what they want with their life, including ending it. Simple as.

LylaElise · 28-06-2012 11:45AM

I'm for it. The way I see it if I knew an exact day I was going to pass I could wake up and do all the small little things I enjoy about life one last time. Eat my favourite meal, listen to my fav songs, talk to my loved ones and say everything I want to say and then leave this world with some peace of mind. I think it would be easier in a way for a persons loved one also. I know one of the hardest things about losing someone is the feeling that the person was cruelly snatched away, had no say and what kind of fear must have they been feeling before they took their last few breaths. It's never easy losing someone you love but just knowing that they had complete control over the situation and were at peace with it, well there is a bit of comfort in that.

We may not have control over how we enter this world but we should have control over how we leave it. Last final swan song and all that.

shopaholic01 · 28-06-2012 11:51AM

Odysseus, being so involved in your father's care must have been a harrowing experience. It's difficult enough to watch someone you love die, but to assume so much responsibility for their care must have been heartbreaking.

I'm sure it was a great comfort to your father though, I always imagine dying to be a lonely experience (if that makes sense?), so I'm sure you helped your father more than you will ever appreciate.

Odysseus · 28-06-2012 12:40PM

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Odysseus, being so involved in your father's care must have been a harrowing experience. It's difficult enough to watch someone you love die, but to assume so much responsibility for their care must have been heartbreaking.

I'm sure it was a great comfort to your father though, I always imagine dying to be a lonely experience (if that makes sense?), so I'm sure you helped your father more than you will ever appreciate.

Cheers, but it was in a way a pleasure to do it, I know a lot about meds and stuff so I was giving him daily injections, he reckoned the public health nurses hurt him ; whereas I didn't.

It was a big learning experience, I was giving him daily injections, he perfered that than the public health murses. TBF my whole family where involved. The hardest thing for me was to see a strong willed individual become helpless and afaird, that and watch him in pain knowing like me he had a very strong tolerance to pain.

Now my whole family help in other ways, it was a powerful experience taking his pluse as his heart pumped the last few times and the mixed emotions that followed. However, I'm really glad I got to be with him in his last few months/weeks/ days etc.

We had him home for the last 3 months, I really don't know how much more we could have gone on for. We worked well but the cracks where starting to show, it nearly turned into a physical fight between me and my brother two day before he died as he wanted him in hospital, and I know my dad was down to days.

I have seen a lot of death in my time, a large amount of my child hood mates are death, I lose client in work regularily, I'm sure this help a bit. Making sure he got good pain relife was a problem, I remember telling the hospice that if they don't sort I work get him some heroin and when they discover I was serious, would do and knew how to do, it moved things on quickly.

Anyway I may not be making sense now so I'll leave it there. Nothing special in my experience in that there are people out there today going through it. It was of course special to me.

Cheers

Edit: after the last night, I had a looked at the amiunt of meds put into I forget the name for that auto injection box, the hospice assisted my daeth on his way out. That is my beliefe and me a a hospice worker discussed it, and I thank her. I believe it happens but cannot be acknowledged.

mongdesade · 28-06-2012 12:48PM

A 'Compus Mentus' adult who is suffering, SHOULD have the legal right to end their life in a dignified manner...my 2 cents

Carter P Fly · 28-06-2012 01:05PM

I think the final decision should be signed off by a doctor but the option should be there as there comes a time when there is NO options other then living a tortured existance or putting a dignified end to it all.

FWIW grandfather died of Althzimers, I strongly suspect my ma has it and therefore Its a real fear for me and my siblings. fcuk going out like that, If Breaking bad has thaught me anything its a stash of ricin is your best friend.

christmas2012 · 28-06-2012 01:19PM

i voted yes btw - i think if someone is dying an agonising death from cancer or hiv they should be able to go for this procedure,or if they are paralysed and dont see the point in living a life where you have no physical independence..

GastroBoy · 29-06-2012 11:26AM

christmas2012 wrote: »

i voted yes btw - i think if someone is dying an agonising death from cancer or hiv they should be able to go for this procedure,or if they are paralysed and dont see the point in living a life where you have no physical independence..

Agreed. Poll seems pretty much decided then...

saiint · 29-06-2012 11:33AM

if you pull the plug on a family member in a coma
its basicly the same thing as assisting them isn it?
pro death+

prinz · 29-06-2012 11:43AM

Carter P Fly wrote: »

..or putting a dignified end to it all..

Odysseus wrote: »

The comes a stage when people need to be allow to go with their dignity, or as much of it as possible

Just because someone may have died slower, or with more pain, does not mean they had any less dignity as a human being, or that their eventual demise was any less dignified. That nonsense is one thing that really pisses me off and I find it offensive tbh, that the only dignified death is quick, painless, and 'clean' so to speak. It isn't.

mongdesade wrote: »

A 'Compus Mentus' adult who is suffering, SHOULD have the legal right to end their life in a dignified manner...my 2 cents

The question there would be is a patient suffering really compos mentis while they are in pain/suffering? Then if they make wishes known prior to becoming unable to communicate for example what if they change their mind?

Lollipops23 · 29-06-2012 11:45AM

My granny passed away at the ripe old age of 91 last month. In her last year she had no idea where she was, although she seemed perfectly happy. Her health declined badly too. While I'm so grateful she stayed happy throughout, if she'd been scared or distressed it would have been just horrible, both for her and for all of us.

My dad has repeatedly asked me to ensure he goes out the other way if he gets addled in his old age. He's completely serious.

Odysseus · 29-06-2012 12:23PM

prinz wrote: »

Just because someone may have died slower, or with more pain, does not mean they had any less dignity as a human being, or that their eventual demise was any less dignified. That nonsense is one thing that really pisses me off and I find it offensive tbh, that the only dignified death is quick, painless, and 'clean' so to speak. It isn't.

The question there would be is a patient suffering really compos mentis while they are in pain/suffering? Then if they make wishes known prior to becoming unable to communicate for example what if they change their mind?

Not being able to get to the jacks before you sh!t yourself, being lifted of the jacks by your son and collaping in pain crying on his shoulder is full of dignity yeah:rolleyes: Not being able to wipe your hole, because of the pain. Having your son change nappies for you again full of dignity that. Good quality pain relife can help a lot with dignity, which was my point.

Same with hiding you pain because you are afaird you will have to go hospital and be kept away from your family. Being in hospital, terminal but left in the hall, being restrained by your son because he could not let you leave hospital. All of that has dignity. Dignity in death is hard to come by, but we can do our best to try facilitate as much of it as possible.

shopaholic01 · 29-06-2012 12:35PM

Prinz, there is nothing dignified about an adult having to wear nappies and depending on someone else to assist with basic functions.

Lying in bed terrified and in pain, knowing you are going to die and watching the grief on your loved one's faces while you are still alive.

It's hard to see someone like that and it haunts you after your death. Grieving is difficult enough without wishing someone had died sooner.

And yes, while it make seem selfish to some it confirms that you never, never want to be in that condition yourself. Why would you? If you're terminally ill what is the point in a slow, agonising death? It's not dignified and it serves no purpose.

xzanti · 29-06-2012 12:38PM

I absolutely think it should be legalised..

As I've said here before, it's a mercy which we afford to our pets when they are faced with a painful and undignified death, but yet we cannot do the same for our loved ones..

As long as it is properly regulated and done with medical supervision etc..

christmas2012 · 29-06-2012 12:39PM

the quicker they legalise this the more money that could be saved,the less people in nursing homes rotting away living in nappies - it must be awful when they have moments of realisation which sometimes happens with dementia patients..

shopaholic01 · 29-06-2012 12:41PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

the quicker they legalise this the more money that could be saved,the less people in nursing homes rotting away living in nappies - it must be awful when they have moments of realisation which sometimes happens with dementia patients..

Not to mention the terror many of them experience, particularly in the early stages. They don't know who they are, where there are or recognise anyone around them.

Must be the worst feeling imaginably.

christmas2012 · 29-06-2012 12:47PM

Ive done work in nursing homes as a student,and recently as a paid staff member as a nurses aide,i have to say its one of the most depressing jobs to have,feeding people who dont remember their own name,sometimes lash out when you try to dress them,and sometimes spit their food out,not to mention changing their nappies..its not a way to live your final months/days/hours - its completely unnatural,and only prolongs the misery,not to mention the cost to family and the state.

i heard of one story off a nurse who told me there was one elderly lady who was chucked out after all the payment after selling her house was gone,when she couldnt pay anymore they chucked her out onto a hospital bed,then she eventually became homeless her family had to take her back in and look after her..
things like this still happen in ireland

shopaholic01 · 29-06-2012 12:52PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

i heard of one story off a nurse who told me there was one elderly lady who was chucked out after all the payment after selling her house was gone,when she couldnt pay anymore they chucked her out onto a hospital bed,then she eventually became homeless her family had to take her back in and look after her..
things like this still happen in ireland

That's just barbaric, and unbelievably sad to think it's somehow considered 'normal' or 'acceptable'.

prinz · 29-06-2012 12:58PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Not being able to get to the jacks before you sh!t yourself, being lifted of the jacks by your son and collaping in pain crying on his shoulder is full of dignity yeah:rolleyes: ..

Maybe that's what you consider dignity, but it's the height of arrogance to take that away from other people.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Prinz, there is nothing dignified about an adult having to wear nappies and depending on someone else to assist with basic functions..

That's for them to decide. Having been in the position of assisting my own father with basic functions, including struggling to support him to the toilet etc a few years ago, and on occassion not getting there on time, never once, never, have I questioned his dignity. Ever, and for anyone who doesn't know the man to come along and say he's undignified, why simply because he's ill? I say f*ck them.

christmas2012 wrote: »

the quicker they legalise this the more money that could be saved.....

Sometimes I despair tbh, I really do. Why not just wipe out everyone in a hospice? Get a terminal diagnoses? Better bump you off asap, money to be saved and all that.

shopaholic01 · 29-06-2012 01:04PM

Prinz, it wouldn't be a case of onlookers deciding to end a life. A person, while healthy, can make an informed decision of whether of not they would like to avail of euthanasia in the event of a terminal illness/unbearable pain/paralysis.

Nobody is suggesting a machine gun rampage in nursing homes and hospitals, or calling for mass extermination of terminally ill people.

Some people may chose to have a natural death, others may chose to end their life earlier.

It is simply a matter of free will and the belief that we should be allowed to make that decision.

prinz · 29-06-2012 01:07PM

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Some people may chose to have a natural death, others may chose to end their life earlier..

When you have arguments like the "cost to the state and the family" of people choosing a natural death then what hope have you of people already feeling vulnerable and burdensome making a free choice?

Edit: Not to mention of course that people who choose a natural death in such circumstances are also choosing to relinquish any sense of dignity apparently, which I note was dropped from your reply.

Where do you stand on legalising assisted death?

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