Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 09:52PM

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

She made feck all, no one would touch her, see also: Flo Jo, who's dead now

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 09:54PM

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

You don't have a clue :rolleyes:

CDfm · 28-06-2012 10:08PM

Pantsface wrote: »

And, if she had been in contact with the Irish team, rather than staying away from the team with her now husband/coach, she would have known this. She went incommunicado for those games, she should have never been running in the first place to be honest.

So Sonia O'Sullivan is wrong, Eamonn Coughlan is wrong and Michelle de Bruin is wrong.

Funny that it's all talented athletes that you disagree with. And you blame them when they don't have good relationships with the sporting organisations.

I think forcing someone to strip naked like that is wrong and maybe that's wrong too or it seems to be from what you are saying.

Pherekydes · 28-06-2012 10:21PM

Pantsface wrote: »

And, if she had been in contact with the Irish team, rather than staying away from the team with her now husband/coach, she would have known this. She went incommunicado for those games, she should have never been running in the first place to be honest.

One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

None of this was Sonia's fault.

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 10:22PM

CDfm wrote: »

So Sonia O'Sullivan is wrong, Eamonn Coughlan is wrong and Michelle de Bruin is wrong.

Funny that it's all talented athletes that you disagree with. And you blame them when they don't have good relationships with the sporting organisations.

I think forcing someone to strip naked like that is wrong and maybe that's wrong too or it seems to be from what you are saying.[/QUOTE]

What are they wrong about?

It was the Olympics, Sonia had to be wearing the correct kit, this is something you seem to have a problem understanding?

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 10:26PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

None of this was Sonia's fault.

Thats fair enough.

K-9 · 28-06-2012 11:39PM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

No.

Our greatest Olympian is Ronnie Delaney.

Gold medal in a blue ribband event...unlikely to be repeated.

The less said about Michelle Smith / De Bruin the better...

Think I posted similar earlier. While the 100M has probably overtaken it in modern times, but at that time, as the nearest to the mile and the whole publicity about the 4 minute mile before the games, no doubt about it, it was the the most prestigious track event.

CDfm · 29-06-2012 12:31AM

Pherekydes wrote: »

One minute you're asking about the competition when Sonia was forced to change kit; the next minute you seem to have all the details. I'm a little perplexed.

Sonia didn't meet Nic Bideau until after the 1996 games were over.

The issue over the kit has been well documented. It was more a power struggle between AAI and the OCI, with Sonia a pawn in the middle.

According to the Olympic charter, the Athletic competitions of the Olympic games are conducted under the auspices of the world governing body, the IAAF, and the rules and regulations of the IAAF apply at all times. Now, AAI are affiliated to the IAAF, and have the right to decide the equipment their athletes (to wit, Sonia, amongst others) wear. But the OCI signed a contract with a rival company and forced Sonia to change literally at the last second.

None of this was Sonia's fault.

Pantsface wrote: »

Thats fair enough.

So was it wrong to force Sonia O'Sullivan to strip or not.

raymann wrote: »

nonsense. the fact is that most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat who was caught out of competition but who won her medals by cheating. its that simple, and theres no conspiracy.

your defense of her is very aggressive, do you have anything to do with her?

Absolutely no connection and I neither know the woman or any of her family.

I am aware this is a contentious area and I have seen no evidence that she cheated to get the medal's.

I have used facts not hyperbole to make my points.

christmas2012 · 29-06-2012 12:35AM

she was the only fraud that kept her medal - now she is staying true to her character and is a practicing lawyer

mathepac · 29-06-2012 06:37AM

raymann wrote: »

... most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat ...

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence. Have you read the rest of the thread? What evidence do you have? Are you simply trolling?

raymann wrote: »

... most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat who was caught out of competition ...

Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business? Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.

raymann wrote: »

... most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat ... who won her medals by cheating. ...

Once again I challenge you and your right-minded colleagues to produce one shred of evidence that Michelle cheated at the Olympics.

raymann wrote: »

... its that simple, and theres no conspiracy...

When all these right-minded people you speak of reach a set of conclusions either with no evidence in support of their conclusion or (as is the case here) a mass of 1st hand contradictory evidence, its either a conspiracy or these people are all delusional, it's that simple.

Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

CDfm · 29-06-2012 08:52AM

mathepac wrote: »

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence.

The core issue.

Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business?

And there are plenty of incidents and occurances that should lead a reasonable person to conclude that there is something wrong in the culture's of the sports organisations.

Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.

The inference seems to be that someone who does not agree with Raymann is not right-minded while he is the one not addressing the question's raised.

Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

And she is from that era in the same way that Ronnie Delaney set the bar and he inspired a generation of young men.

We are a country the size of a small US state and she should be up there.

People forget that in the USA pre 1974 that there were no college sports program's for women as there were for men with all the associated funding , scholarship's and opportunities .

Herself and Sonia were the first from Ireland and the first Irishwomen to do this and I care how they are treated.

bruschi · 29-06-2012 09:09AM

mathepac wrote: »

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence. Have you read the rest of the thread? What evidence do you have? Are you simply trolling?
Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business? Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.
Once again I challenge you and your right-minded colleagues to produce one shred of evidence that Michelle cheated at the Olympics.
When all these right-minded people you speak of reach a set of conclusions either with no evidence in support of their conclusion or (as is the case here) a mass of 1st hand contradictory evidence, its either a conspiracy or these people are all delusional, it's that simple.
Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

Raymann called her a drugs cheat, not that she cheated at the Olympics. Show me how you think someone who was banned for 4 years for tampering with a drug sample, and who was found on three separate occasions to have given samples with body building steroids in them should not be called a drugs cheat.

If you was to believe that her olympic medals are untarnished, you do so. The swimming board of Ireland dont recognise her anymore, nor do most people. If you believe she wasnt doing drugs at the olympics, thats your opinion. I certainly dont believe she was clean, everything points to her being on drugs, from her association with a banned drug peddler, to her significant rise in times when she was past her peak of swimming age, to her subsequent drug use and drug tampering ban, to her avoidance of drug tests in the year prior to the Olympics, and to the many experts within the swimming world who have discredited her.

She gave no positive sample at the olympics, and as I said, that is not a certain cause for automatic innocence. Granted, it is not certain cause for guilt either, but I know what I think about it anyway, and I certainly believe her medals are more than tarnished.

noddyone2 · 29-06-2012 09:17AM

You're spot on. People just want to believe ****e. What is it with Coughlan bringing this up? And I wouldn't ride either of them.

noddyone2 · 29-06-2012 09:18AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

She was a drug cheat and anyone who thinks she wasn't is delusional.

And I would. Anyoen who wouldn't is delusional.

You're spot on. People just want to believe ****e. What is it with Coughlan bringing this up? And I wouldn't ride either of them.

Indo404 · 29-06-2012 09:50AM

Pherekydes wrote: »

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

And all Irish participants to the Olympics knew that they had to wear the official kit of the OCI months before the Olympics. Why would you, as an experienced athlete, run the risk of having your preparation for the most important race of your life, interrupted by not wearing the official kid?

M cebee · 29-06-2012 10:49AM

i blame the husband anyhow-she was better off staying a drug free national champion as she was pre 92 when she met de bruin

Indo404 · 29-06-2012 11:03AM

mathepac wrote: »

Those are the same "right minded" people who like yourself think it is OK to take the woman's character and blacken her achievements with no evidence. Have you read the rest of the thread? What evidence do you have? Are you simply trolling?
Are you familiar with how the testers conducted themselves and carried out their business? Maybe yourself and the rest of those right-minded people should be.
Once again I challenge you and your right-minded colleagues to produce one shred of evidence that Michelle cheated at the Olympics.
When all these right-minded people you speak of reach a set of conclusions either with no evidence in support of their conclusion or (as is the case here) a mass of 1st hand contradictory evidence, its either a conspiracy or these people are all delusional, it's that simple.

Michelle's 1996 achievements are untarnished and she was and still is our greatest Olympian.

"Most Irish people don't recognise MS anymore" myth.

I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

"She was too old" myth

. "Originally Posted by Spokes of Glory
The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks."
MS was 26 at the Olympics in 1996. "The average age of the top eight women in the 100-meter freestyle at the Olympic Trials is 26.8." http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/1574.html
Dara Torres US swimmer) competed in the 2008 Olympic Games and won a silver medal at age 41.

No availability for out-of-competition myth.
Originally Posted by Motorist
... FINA, swimming's international federation, had repeatedly expressed concern that Smith was unavailable for out-of-competition drug tests from 1995 onward. ...

Not true. FINA even wrote her a letter stating that FINA had no problem with her availability for out-of-competition tests. The letter was produced at the CAS hearing in 1998.

"She came out of nowhere" myth

Originally Posted by Red21
Don't know how Jimmy Magee gets away with this nonsence, she took 20 sec's off her 400m time an event that only takes 4 mins.
If paul hession had the same improvement he'd be in with a chance to win the 200m.
The 400 meter time in 1995 was a training swim for her Dutch club. You should compare like with like. She did not "improve" 20 seconds. Yes there is a difference of 20 seconds in those two times. Look at her time in the 400 IM in 1995 (4:42) and her time in 1996 (4:39). Same distance Those are two times you can compare. She was rested and tapered for both those meets.

PS "She came out of nowhere" Where did MS finish two years before the Olympics in 1996 at the wold championships in Rome?

I suppose it is easy for someone who is lazy to simply repeat these myths, instead of doing proper research.

Further, when any proper anlysis of her events is done, there were no huge drops in times, as was suggested by the Americans. The 1996 Olympic Games were the worst games for an American swimming team in forty years. It's easy to blame someone else, rather than explain why your own swimmers have not performed.
In one of the events in which she won a gold medal, MS was approached by the coach of a girl who had finished behind her in the medals. He congratulated her and said that his swimmer didn't deserve to win, as she hadn't trained hard enough. That is not something that can be said about Michelle Smith.

Paparazzo · 29-06-2012 11:09AM

CDfm wrote: »

So was it wrong to force Sonia O'Sullivan to strip or not.

I thought Sonia had to change cos she shít herself before the race. Probably a good thing she changed then

bazza1 · 29-06-2012 11:10AM

Pardon my stupidity..but why did she tamper with the testing procedure? I cant remember her defence.

M cebee · 29-06-2012 11:39AM

i blame the husband anyhow-she was better off staying a drug free national champion as she was pre 92 when she met de bruin

secretambition · 29-06-2012 12:14PM

Anyone who cheats at any point in their sporting career does so aware that if they are ever found out, it will tarnish their reputation in general and cause people to wonder about any previous achievements.

On that basis I have no sympathy for the unfairly blackening character argument.

bruschi · 29-06-2012 12:52PM

Indo404 wrote: »

"Most Irish people don't recognise MS anymore" myth.

I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

"She was too old" myth

. "Originally Posted by Spokes of Glory
The age factor is considered more significant in females because they lay down more body fat coming into adulthood.......hence the number of 17 and 18 year olds prevalent in the top ranks."
MS was 26 at the Olympics in 1996. "The average age of the top eight women in the 100-meter freestyle at the Olympic Trials is 26.8." http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/1574.html
Dara Torres US swimmer) competed in the 2008 Olympic Games and won a silver medal at age 41.

No availability for out-of-competition myth.
Originally Posted by Motorist
... FINA, swimming's international federation, had repeatedly expressed concern that Smith was unavailable for out-of-competition drug tests from 1995 onward. ...

Not true. FINA even wrote her a letter stating that FINA had no problem with her availability for out-of-competition tests. The letter was produced at the CAS hearing in 1998.

"She came out of nowhere" myth

Originally Posted by Red21
Don't know how Jimmy Magee gets away with this nonsence, she took 20 sec's off her 400m time an event that only takes 4 mins.
If paul hession had the same improvement he'd be in with a chance to win the 200m.
The 400 meter time in 1995 was a training swim for her Dutch club. You should compare like with like. She did not "improve" 20 seconds. Yes there is a difference of 20 seconds in those two times. Look at her time in the 400 IM in 1995 (4:42) and her time in 1996 (4:39). Same distance Those are two times you can compare. She was rested and tapered for both those meets.

PS "She came out of nowhere" Where did MS finish two years before the Olympics in 1996 at the wold championships in Rome?

I suppose it is easy for someone who is lazy to simply repeat these myths, instead of doing proper research.

Further, when any proper anlysis of her events is done, there were no huge drops in times, as was suggested by the Americans. The 1996 Olympic Games were the worst games for an American swimming team in forty years. It's easy to blame someone else, rather than explain why your own swimmers have not performed.
In one of the events in which she won a gold medal, MS was approached by the coach of a girl who had finished behind her in the medals. He congratulated her and said that his swimmer didn't deserve to win, as she hadn't trained hard enough. That is not something that can be said about Michelle Smith.

on your points, (interesting how everyone of your 16 posts on this forum are only to do with Michelle SMith, but however).

1. you are guaging her popularity on a non existant examiner page, and a "celebrity" competition which was won by a crooked local TD from Kerry, and that contained some of the worst z list celebs in Ireland. That proves nothing of her popularity.

2. the average age factor. yes, you can use your 100m average, that adds a year onto it from jsut one competetor. You could also look at this:

http://espn.go.com/espnw/training/6590755/in-long-run-women-getting-stronger-age

And while the average age of female U.S. Olympic swimmers in 2008 was just 22.82

or this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/magazine/29torres-t.html?pagewanted=all

notes that the average age of competitors at national swimming championships increased from 16 in the 1960s to 20 in 2004

where that article discusses how being old may not be a hinderence, but is certainly the exception rather than the rule.

even your own link says the average age of swimmers in USA was 19.2 years.

3. her times, which were impressive, all dramatically improved after 1994, afte she met her drug banned husband, and after she was going awol on drug testers. in the 200m IM, she improved from 2.23 to 2.13, and in the 400m IM imrpoved from 4.57 to 4.39.

you obviously have a personal interest in this, I dont. I'm looking from the outside on someone who wasnt considered a realistic medal hope to winning all around her and subsequently being positively drug tested and being handed a 4 year ban for tampering with a drug test.

CDfm · 29-06-2012 03:26PM

bruschi wrote: »

you obviously have a personal interest in this, I dont. .

I was asked this same question and really it is down to deep unease with how the sporting organizations who purport to organize the national team conduct themselves.

They get public money and people are well justified in asking questions in a public forum concerning their conduct when that conduct worries them.

Jame Gumb · 29-06-2012 03:36PM

I have no involvement with swimming.

My friends and I are sports fans and the general consensus among us is that she is a "non person" and that her medals never happened.

I'm pretty sure that feeling is replicated among the general public.

Between drugged up people and drugged up animals, what are we like?!

Ficheall · 29-06-2012 03:41PM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Between drugged up people and drugged up animals, what are we like?!

Many of the world's other countries with successful athletes?

CDfm · 29-06-2012 03:52PM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

My friends and I are sports fans and the general consensus among us is that she is a "non person" and that her medals never happened.

She won the medal's fair and square and you can't unwin something. It's a logical fallacy.

Jame Gumb · 29-06-2012 04:01PM

CDfm wrote: »

She won the medal's fair and square

Like many sports fans, I'm highly sceptical about that.

marcus2000 · 29-06-2012 04:12PM

Not sure about her personally, but guilty or not, and as an Irishperson myself, It was one of the best weeks of Olympics that I can recall. It made great edge-of-the-seat TV!!!

CDfm · 29-06-2012 06:00PM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

Like many sports fans, I'm highly sceptical about that.

Absolutely, and you are entitled to be sceptical.

As an issue it transcends sport. And,a reasonable person might think that , if there is a doubt then no one should be entitled to take away her good name.

Really, you don't have to like her or admire her , but you should want the procedures and practices to be above board.

Pantsface · 30-06-2012 09:48PM

CDfm wrote: »

So was it wrong to force Sonia O'Sullivan to strip or not.

Absolutely no connection and I neither know the woman or any of her family.

I am aware this is a contentious area and I have seen no evidence that she cheated to get the medal's.

I have used facts not hyperbole to make my points.

I think she should have had the cop to wear the correct kit in the first place. Its simple really

Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

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