Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

CDfm · 27-06-2012 12:13AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

did she take drugs tests in 95 and 96?

surely she was tested during the olympics, so if nothing was found then, how on earth would she be guilty of cheating?

Absolutely. There is no evidence.

So where does this presumption come from and if it is being applied why is it not being applied to the other athletes that represented Ireland as well.

Who are the decision makers who make this decision.

sock puppet · 27-06-2012 12:17AM

Pantsface wrote: »

Where then?

Mythical lands that lie across the Irish sea and Atlantic ocean. Legend has it that they too like to compete in sporting events.

CDfm wrote: »

Absolutely. There is no evidence.

So where does this presumption come from and if it is being applied why is it not being applied to the other athletes that represented Ireland as well.

Who are the decision makers who make this decision.

What other Irish athletes have had olympic success and also deliberately committed a doping offence (medals that haven't been stripped obviously)?

3rdDegree · 27-06-2012 12:38AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I feel sorry for the swimmers who missed out on a medal due to this drug cheat.

I agree. Between defrocked priests and Michelle de Bruin, we've ruined the Olympics for everyone

CDfm · 27-06-2012 06:48AM

sock puppet wrote: »

What other Irish athletes have had olympic success and also deliberately committed a doping offence (medals that haven't been stripped obviously)?

What other Irish athletes who had either success and/or improvement in th period need to be investigated and the same rule appled to all.

So all Irish athletes from that era need to be suspected as if one was at it they all mush have been.

mathepac · 27-06-2012 12:53PM

CDfm wrote: »

Absolutely. There is no evidence. ...

+1 As We've both been saying as nauseum, but unfortunately there are some who think stuff like this is evidence of Michelle cheating.

Pantsface wrote: »

Her husband was done for the drugs, I think it was 91 / 92? She met him at the Barcelona Olypmics back in 1992 I remember being told

CDfm · 27-06-2012 02:00PM

mathepac wrote: »

+1 As We've both been saying as nauseum, but unfortunately there are some who think stuff like this is evidence of Michelle cheating.

That's mad that is.

Cian O'Connors horse recieved treatment for an injury from a Vet and I a not an animal rights activist but best treatment for an animal can hardly be disagreed with nor should it be prevented by a private sporting organisation.

A break for Tommy Tiernan on that.

These sporting organisations have no real legal standing on animal welfare either.

Pantsface · 27-06-2012 06:33PM

sock puppet wrote: »

Mythical lands that lie across the Irish sea and Atlantic ocean. Legend has it that they too like to compete in sporting events.

Where is this? Ben Johnson is the poster boy for steriod abuse, and to say she gets more negativity? Are you serious?

CDfm · 27-06-2012 09:36PM

Pantsface wrote: »

sock puppet wrote: »

Mythical lands that lie across the Irish sea and Atlantic ocean. Legend has it that they too like to compete in sporting events.

Where is this? Ben Johnson is the poster boy for steriod abuse, and to say she gets more negativity? Are you serious?

Difference is Johnson tested positive in competition at the Olympics.

Michelle did not .

Pantsface · 27-06-2012 09:47PM

CDfm wrote: »

Pantsface wrote: »

Difference is Johnson tested positive in competition at the Olympics.

Michelle did not .

If you see his original comment, he reckons she gets more negativity directed at her than the likes of him, which is think is pure nonsense

She didn't, thats true. I still think she's a cheat. She might not have tested positive, but this tampering with the alcohol, husband done for drugging & once he takes over her training, she makes these unbelievable and incrediable improvements. I'd believe in Santa quicker than believe she got there with sheer hard work alone.

These private doctors and chemists are a good few steps ahead of doping testers - and I believe at big meets, there are generally urine tests, and not blood tests, which are harder to cheat

Well it used to be that way, i think

sock puppet · 28-06-2012 12:04AM

CDfm wrote: »

What other Irish athletes who had either success and/or improvement in th period need to be investigated and the same rule appled to all.

So all Irish athletes from that era need to be suspected as if one was at it they all mush have been.

So the answer to my question? Which of these other successful Irish athletes were committed a deliberate doping offence like Smith?

Pantsface wrote: »

Where is this? Ben Johnson is the poster boy for steriod abuse, and to say she gets more negativity? Are you serious?

Johnson always seemed comfortable in front of the media. Looks like I was wrong. How will I ever live with myself

CDfm · 28-06-2012 04:03AM

sock puppet wrote: »

So the answer to my question? Which of these other successful Irish athletes were committed a deliberate doping offence like Smith?

Smith has never tested positive for anything ever.

The problem I have with it is that irrespective of this , you and others like you are treating her as she has been , therefore proving Eamonn Coughlan's point.

You seem to think that you have an entitlement to do this and others of us say that you have not as she has never tested positive.

She is entitled to her good name and entitled to enjoy her Olympic medal's and record and have it acknowledged and that is the problem I have with your posts.

I am Irish and proud to be Irish and I am offended that those in charge are behaving this way and are very much out of control.

To take Eamonn Coughlan's point and put it in context, people like me who would normally support any Irish team or sportsperson do not see things the way you do and no longer are interested in supporting Irish athletics.

I had no interest in going to see the Olympic torch ,as the gloss has gone. This year I have zero interest in the Irish team and athletes and do not even know who they are and I have been lost as a fan as have lots of others.

I don't know if you are involved in any sport or sporting organization and it does not matter if you are .Fans support for the craic and association with achievement and there is none.

So for now I will go off and support the greyhounds.

Cookie_Monster · 28-06-2012 05:07AM

CDfm wrote: »

Smith has never tested positive for anything ever.

Exactly. And that despite lots of questionable practices by testers too.

I for one think she was certainly our greatest Olympian without any doubt.

Indo404 · 28-06-2012 10:35AM

CDfm wrote: »

But thats hardly the point.

Michelle de Bruin is Irish and has her medals legally.

Other countries would not treat her this way.

I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

CDfm · 28-06-2012 01:26PM

Indo404 wrote: »

I think there is a difference the way Smith was treated by the Irish press and the way she was treated by the general public. She still seems to be popular with the Irish people.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archive...348756146.html

And her 1996 wins were voted the best Olympic memories by the listeners of the Pat Kenny radio show.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/celebritiesgowild/latest.html

But it is not just the press it is the Athletics establishment - Athletics Ireland and the Irish Olympic Commitee. With their record are they for real.

Sonia O'Sullivan was forced to strip naked in a public area by an official and change kit before a race.

Does anyone else find this a teensy bit odd and when I look at the way Michelle Smith DeBruin is being treated this springs to mind.

And Irish Swimming has not been scandal free and there is even a book on it

Deep Deception

Ireland's Swimming Scandals
by Justine McCarthy

In recent years, the world of Irish swimming was shattered by an appalling series of child sexual abuse scandals.

http://www.obrien.ie/book808.cfm

Its worth checking this link and podcast.

I am saying that there is a culture of arrogance and by all accounts Eamonn Coughlan is a good man and more than likely was diplomatic in what he said.

norrie rugger · 28-06-2012 01:31PM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

She was a drugs cheat and despite not testing positive, to suggest she wasn't juiced up for the olympics would be naive. Greatest Irish olympian my hole.

Prove it

bruschi · 28-06-2012 03:59PM

CDfm wrote: »

Smith has never tested positive for anything ever.

The problem I have with it is that irrespective of this , you and others like you are treating her as she has been , therefore proving Eamonn Coughlan's point.

You seem to think that you have an entitlement to do this and others of us say that you have not as she has never tested positive.

She is entitled to her good name and entitled to enjoy her Olympic medal's and record and have it acknowledged and that is the problem I have with your posts.

I am Irish and proud to be Irish and I am offended that those in charge are behaving this way and are very much out of control.

To take Eamonn Coughlan's point and put it in context, people like me who would normally support any Irish team or sportsperson do not see things the way you do and no longer are interested in supporting Irish athletics.

I had no interest in going to see the Olympic torch ,as the gloss has gone. This year I have zero interest in the Irish team and athletes and do not even know who they are and I have been lost as a fan as have lots of others.

I don't know if you are involved in any sport or sporting organization and it does not matter if you are .Fans support for the craic and association with achievement and there is none.

So for now I will go off and support the greyhounds.

I find this mad. Someone wont watch the Olympics anymore because of how a former athlete, who was given a 4 year ban to drug testing abuse, is treated. Never mind not wanting to watch the Olympics because of the drug cheats.

Find it mad reading through this thread. Smith didnt give a positive test at the Olympics, so automatically is innocent. Marian Jones was never tested positvie at the Olympics, but she was on steroids for her multiple gold medal winning performances.

Just because there may have been others who were on drugs, does not make it right that we should celebrate her gold medal wins. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Sonia O sullivan was probably done out of medals due to drug cheats in her sport. had she taken drugs and won, would that make things better?

Also, Smiths tampered sample did indeed contain bodybuilding steroids.
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/929.asp?q=Ireland-Wipes-Out-Michelle-Smith-DeBruin's-Records

Previous attempts to strip Smith de Bruin of her records since she was suspended from the sport last year for placing alcohol in a urine sample that subsequently proved to contain the banned steroid Androstenedione, seemed futile, there being no legal argument against the fact that the swimmer set her records before she was suspended

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29022012/58/london-2012-michelle-smith.html

FINA submitted evidence that said that, on top of the tampering of the urine, Smith had also taken the bodybuilding drug Androstenedione, a metabolic precursor of testosterone, the night before the test.
Although this was not a banned drug at the time, it was also revealed that three samples, taken between November 1997 and March 1998, had shown traces of Androstenedione, which was a banned drug. FINA thought they had a better case when it came to the tampered test though, which is why they proceeded down that route

I really cant understand how people can defend her so strongly. She may be Irish, she may be 'technically' our most successful Olympian, but there are more than a few doubts about her credibility. I for one, do not believe her at all. It does not add up in the slightest.

CDfm · 28-06-2012 05:48PM

bruschi wrote: »

I find this mad. Someone wont watch the Olympics anymore because of how a former athlete, who was given a 4 year ban to drug testing abuse, is treated.

That was not theonly reason I gave and I gave several reasons which have contributed to me feeling this way.

Find it mad reading through this thread. Smith didnt give a positive test at the Olympics, so automatically is innocent.

Neither does it follow that she is automatically guilty.

In order for the general public, people like me, to be convinced we have to be convinced that she was treated fairly.

You may believe she was and you are entitled to that belief and others do not have to share that belief.

So there is a credibility factor but there also is a lot of aggression in how they conduct themselves.

Sonia O sullivan

I cited Sonia O'Sullivan's infamous forced strip and other issue's around sport at that time and that caused me concern. I also cited Justine McCarthy's book.

Would anyone really want their kids doing amateur sport regulated by these people.

That's rhetorical.

Also, Smiths tampered sample did indeed contain bodybuilding steroids.
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/929.asp?q=Ireland-Wipes-Out-Michelle-Smith-DeBruin's-Records

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29022012/58/london-2012-michelle-smith.html

I really cant understand how people can defend her so strongly. She may be Irish, she may be 'technically' our most successful Olympian, but there are more than a few doubts about her credibility. I for one, do not believe her at all. It does not add up in the slightest.

And if there was rampant drug use in sport , I find it hard to believe that it occurred without some knowledge by the organizers.

Nobody can understand how the sample got tampered with but given the shenanigan's of what goes on in sport they may feel that as a governing body they are beyond reproach but others do not necessarily share that view.

Overall,when I see all this, as a package, then maybe I don't want to support it.

The Olympics and athletics, certainly in Ireland, have lost a lot of prestige and pulling on the green jersey used to mean something when Eamonn Coughlan and John Treacy did it.

It isn't amateur anymore either in any sense of the word,its a business, and I wouldn't loose any sleep over how professional footballers or wrestlers conduct themselves so why should I here.

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 06:54PM

CDfm wrote: »

But it is not just the press it is the Athletics establishment - Athletics Ireland and the Irish Olympic Commitee. With their record are they for real.

Sonia O'Sullivan was forced to strip naked in a public area by an official and change kit before a race.

Does anyone else find this a teensy bit odd and when I look at the way Michelle Smith DeBruin is being treated this springs to mind.

And Irish Swimming has not been scandal free and there is even a book on it

http://www.obrien.ie/book808.cfm

Its worth checking this link and podcast.

I am saying that there is a culture of arrogance and by all accounts Eamonn Coughlan is a good man and more than likely was diplomatic in what he said.

When you run for your country, you have to wear the brand that sponsers the country, not the brand you personally are sponsered by, this is a given & she would have known this.

CDfm · 28-06-2012 08:01PM

Pantsface wrote: »

When you run for your country, you have to wear the brand that sponsers the country, not the brand you personally are sponsered by, this is a given & she would have known this.

Good point that it is no longer an amateur sport and that the financial considerations are high.

What I was trying to get across was that as a person Sonia was not treated with respect in this situation.

She was no longer representing her country but her advertisers. A bit like Formula 1's Mark Webber driving for Red Bull.

If that's what they are why should we look at them differently or care.

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 08:04PM

CDfm wrote: »

Good point that it is no longer an amateur sport and that the financial considerations are high.

What I was trying to get across was that as a person Sonia was not treated with respect in this situation.

She was no longer representing her country but her advertisers. A bit like Formula 1's Mark Webber driving for Red Bull.

If that's what they are why should we look at them differently or care.

What race was it? Was it an International?

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 08:09PM

CDfm wrote: »

Good point that it is no longer an amateur sport and that the financial considerations are high.

What I was trying to get across was that as a person Sonia was not treated with respect in this situation.

She was no longer representing her country but her advertisers. A bit like Formula 1's Mark Webber driving for Red Bull.

If that's what they are why should we look at them differently or care.

well, if Example: asics sponser the irish kit - you gotta wear asics, thems the rules & this is not a recent thing

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 08:10PM

Pantsface wrote: »

well, if Example: asics sponser the irish kit - you gotta wear asics, thems the rules & this is not a recent thing

this only goes for the kit, not the spikes/runners

Jame Gumb · 28-06-2012 08:12PM

No.

Our greatest Olympian is Ronnie Delaney.

Gold medal in a blue ribband event...unlikely to be repeated.

The less said about Michelle Smith / De Bruin the better...

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 08:19PM

Jame Gumb wrote: »

No.

Our greatest Olympian is Ronnie Delaney.

Gold medal in a blue ribband event...unlikely to be repeated.

The less said about Michelle Smith / De Bruin the better...

Very very true.

CDfm · 28-06-2012 09:28PM

Pantsface wrote: »

When you run for your country, you have to wear the brand that sponsers the country, not the brand you personally are sponsered by, this is a given & she would have known this.

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 09:33PM

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

The competing for the countries honour is a pretense.

In something like boxing and golf you really know when you are dealing with an amateur cos they don't get paid.

So how are we the public to know with athletics -we don't- and as far as I can see its awash with money.

It's not a fun run and another reason why we shouldn't be supporting these people or watching this summer.

Listen, I'm asking if when Sonia was told to change her gear for a race, was it an International? If so, they were right to tell her to change, as if she was representing Ireland, she had to wear the sponsers official Irish kit

You wouldn't see Robbie Keane running around in his own gear during a match would you? NO, he would have to be wearing the Irish Jersey, same applies to anyone representing their country.

Pherekydes · 28-06-2012 09:40PM

Pantsface wrote: »

Listen, I'm asking if when Sonia was told to change her gear for a race, was it an International? If so, they were right to tell her to change, as if she was representing Ireland, she had to wear the sponsers official Irish kit

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 09:42PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

Cheers

She had to change so.

raymann · 28-06-2012 09:43PM

CDfm wrote: »

You are quite right to point out that the stakes are high and that there is money involved.

We really can't tell if the briefing's against Michelle are commercially driven by others to prevent her getting a slice of an advertising and promotion money available. I suspect they are.

If the competitors are competing for personal gain from their personal sponsors and their team's sponsors and getting paid for it then it's hardly a volunteer thing but a commercial arrangement.

nonsense. the fact is that most right minded people think that she was a drugs cheat who was caught out of competition but who won her medals by cheating. its that simple, and theres no conspiracy.

your defense of her is very aggressive, do you have anything to do with her?

Pantsface · 28-06-2012 09:45PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

It was the 1996 Olympic Games. Sonia had the official kit of Athletics Ireland on at the time, but was forced to change it for the official kit of the Olympic Council of Ireland.

And, if she had been in contact with the Irish team, rather than staying away from the team with her now husband/coach, she would have known this. She went incommunicado for those games, she should have never been running in the first place to be honest.

Was Michelle de Bruin our greatest Olympian? Eamonn Coughlan says yes

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