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Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

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Comments

  • #272
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Other - Please explain.
    therewillbe wrote: »
    Well well Mr Shatter,Prone to gaffes or what! Now this is another cock up by this guy.

    I don't think so.

    The local community have agreed to call it Both Londonderry and Derry.
    The City and county are called "Londonderry" while the local government district is called "Derry".

    Derry/Londonderry or "Stroke City" is also popular.

    End of crisis, back to topic.


  • #273
    cyrusdvirus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

    about as measured and proportionate as sending a letter of condolence to the Germans after Hitler shot himself.....


  • #274
    Dogwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭Dogwatch


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.
    The State should have court martialled these men and not have done it lazy way. Neither side come out well in this instance.


  • #275
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

    He asked you is it your opinion, that how their families were treated was fair? not about the men themselves. Yes they couldnt work for the state for 7 years, that in itself was probably enough but that children of those who died were forced into religious educational institutions and orphanages against their will, and were singled out and assigned the initials SS (siaghduiri sasanach), is that fair now that we now what really went on in these schools and orphanages?


  • #276
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    Morphéus wrote: »
    He asked you is it your opinion, that how their families were treated was fair? not about the men themselves. Yes they couldnt work for the state for 7 years, that in itself was probably enough but that children of those who died were forced into religious educational institutions and orphanages against their will, and were singled out and assigned the initials SS (siaghduiri sasanach), is that fair now that we now what really went on in these schools and orphanages?

    Sadly, very many children were sent to industrial schools before, during and after this period on the flimsiest of pretexts. Many of them were brutally physically and sexually assaulted while there.

    Among other organisations, for example, the ISPCC was strongly criticized by of all people, Frank Duff, founder of the Legion of Mary, for effectively conspiring with religious orders to shovel children into these institutions for no good reason.

    However, I haven't seen the slightest credible evidence that children of deserters were singled out for special attention in this regard, or, if they were, that it was in any way officially directed or sanctioned. Nobody can even say how many children of deserters were actually in these institutions.

    As for this alleged "SS" designation, for the umpteenth time on this thread, what is the proof that this ever happened, apart from an unsupported assertion in a newspaper opinion piece?


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  • #277
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    The official list of the deserters is contained in an irish govt publication of the time called

    "List of personnel of the Defence Forces dismissed for desertion in time of National Emergency pursuant to the terms of Emergency Powers (No 362) Order 1945 (S.R. & O. 1945 No 198) or Section 13 of the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (No 7/1946)"

    Does anyone know if this is available online to read anywhere or do you have to buy it!?


  • #278
    Raging_Ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Raging_Ninja


    regarding de valera - there's a forest named after him in Israel as a sign of Israel's regard for him due to how much help Ireland gave to Jewish refugees during WW2.

    also, the constitution that was written was a reflection of the view of the people of the time - it was not inflicted upon them unwillingly, it was ratified by the citizenry.

    as for collinse - i think a lot of th reverence for him is owing to the fact that he died before he was able to get into power.


  • #279
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    Interesting wrinkle on this topic in a letter to today's (15/06/12) "Irish Times":

    Sir, – On the Emergency black market, a full standard issue Army kit would get you very far indeed. Possessing a veritable treasure trove of clothing and accoutrements, every deserting soldier had the potential to become a super “spiv” in between deserting and “joining up” again. While all those who fought the good against fascism deserve our gratitude, we should take care, as always, not to read their initial motivations backwards. – Yours, etc,

    Dr BRYCE EVANS,
    Lecturer in Modern History,
    Liverpool Hope University,
    Liverpool.


  • #280
    Cranoo86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 ✭Cranoo86


    Other - Please explain.
    No - deserters ought to be shot. It's nothing to do with the reasons they deserted. Absolutely nothing to me; you desert your country, you are shot by firing squad!


  • #281
    Raging_Ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Raging_Ninja


    Cranoo86 wrote: »
    No - deserters ought to be shot. It's nothing to do with the reasons they deserted. Absolutely nothing to me; you desert your country, you are shot by firing squad!

    don't be daft.


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  • #282
    purplepanda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    So how many of those that deserted actually joined the allied military forces? Are there any estimated figures?

    Personally I don't think those that deserted & got non military civilian jobs home or abroad should get pardoned at all.

    Any pardons given should be with confirmation of allied military forces records of enlistment & service beforehand IMO.


  • #283
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    Ellis Dee wrote: »

    Shatter's decision is a disgrace. and so were those deserters. :


    Very strong opinion there. I would not classify anyone who joined up with another countries armed forces to defend the world against Nazism a disgrace. Sure very easy to be hurler on the ditch, Ireland had the luxury.

    I for one welcome this decision wholeheartedly.


  • #284
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    jank wrote: »
    Very strong opinion there. I would not classify anyone who joined up with another countries armed forces to defend the world against Nazism a disgrace. Sure very easy to be hurler on the ditch, Ireland had the luxury.

    I for one welcome this decision wholeheartedly.

    He isn't calling people who joined the Allies a disgrace. Tens of thousands of Irish joined the armies of Allied nations. This is about the relatively few who walked out on their obligations in the Irish military. Their disgrace is desertion, not whatever they did afterwards.


  • #285
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    By that reasoning Claus von Stauffenberg is a disgrace because he tried to kill Hitler who was the Head of the State and the armed forces.


  • #286
    Raging_Ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,717 ✭✭✭Raging_Ninja


    jank wrote: »
    By that reasoning Claus von Stauffenberg is a disgrace because he tried to kill Hitler who was the Head of the State and the armed forces.

    And this is where the ground gets dangerous. Should the military have veto power over the government.

    Besides, what does it have to do with the pardoning of deserters?


  • #287
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    No - they should NOT be Pardoned.
    Raging_Ninja wrote: »
    And this is where the ground gets dangerous. Should the military have veto power over the government.

    Besides, what does it have to do with the pardoning of deserters?

    Von Stauffenberg is regarded as a hero in Germany and around the world as he stood up to the Nazi regime. The point is that it is not as black and white as some may suggest!


  • #288
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    jank wrote: »
    Von Stauffenberg is regarded as a hero in Germany and around the world as he stood up to the Nazi regime. The point is that it is not as black and white as some may suggest!

    Indeed it isn't. He and his co-conspirators went along with the Nazi regime up to the point when it became clear that they had backed a loser.

    Compared to the likes of Sophie and Hans Scholl, or Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he was a moral pygmy.


  • #289
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    Other - Please explain.
    jank wrote: »
    Von Stauffenberg is regarded as a hero in Germany and around the world as he stood up to the Nazi regime. The point is that it is not as black and white as some may suggest!

    Around the world?! And I suppose the "world" considers Michael Collins a hero and de Valera a sniveling old cripple?! Hollywood does not equal the world.


  • #290
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Other - Please explain.
    Just as an aside if the Irish Government says they where wrong to punish these men.

    Ergo were the men right and the government of the day wrong?

    Its like trying to fix a cracked wall with high gloss.


  • #291
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Other - Please explain.
    As another aside... Just because the current Minister apologises (presumably on behalf of the Government) for the manner in which the desertions were dealt, I note that the limited quote doesn't say anything about a pardon for the offenses. Can anyone confirm or deny if there is any practical substance to the statement?

    NTM


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  • #292
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,878 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Other - Please explain.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    As another aside... Just because the current Minister apologises (presumably on behalf of the Government) for the manner in which the desertions were dealt, I note that the limited quote doesn't say anything about a pardon for the offenses. Can anyone confirm or deny if there is any practical substance to the statement?

    NTM

    This is what the minister said in the Dáil:

    "The Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory and will introduce legislation to grant a pardon and amnesty to those who absented themselves from the Defence Forces without leave or permission to fight on the Allied side."

    Of course, this leaves hanging the question of how it will be determined which of these deserters "fought on the Allied side". Presumably not all of them did.


  • #293
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Other - Please explain.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    As another aside... Just because the current Minister apologises (presumably on behalf of the Government) for the manner in which the desertions were dealt, I note that the limited quote doesn't say anything about a pardon for the offenses. Can anyone confirm or deny if there is any practical substance to the statement?

    NTM
    Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.

    He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.

    Up to 4,500 soldiers fled from the Defence Forces during the Second World War and did not return to their Irish units.

    Many of them joined the British Army.

    After the war, the De Valera Government published a list of those who deserted.

    Yeah thats not a pardon that is just a "Sorry we were so rough on you guys" so disregard my last post. They are not pardoned at all.

    F**king less hot air in the Hindenburg.

    Plus if you have a state job and you leave without the due process today. I doubt you would get another state job anyway?


  • #294
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    Zambia wrote: »
    Just as an aside if the Irish Government says they where wrong to punish these men.

    Ergo were the men right and the government of the day wrong?

    Its like trying to fix a cracked wall with high gloss.

    I thought it would say that how these men were punished was wrong and that a fair punishment would be some sort of dishonourable discharge from the Irish Army.


  • #295
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Other - Please explain.
    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    I thought it would say that how these men were punished was wrong and that a fair punishment would be some sort of dishonourable discharge from the Irish Army.
    Good god no ....you have to be vague and uncommittal about these things
    Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.


  • #296
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    Zambia wrote: »
    F**king less hot air in the Hindenburg.

    Hindenburg was a helium lifter, so that's not hard.


  • #297
    Dogwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭Dogwatch


    Donny5 wrote: »
    Hindenburg was a helium lifter, so that's not hard.

    Hydrogen. Helium is inert and does not burn


  • #298
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    Dogwatch wrote: »
    Hydrogen. Helium is inert and does not burn

    Right you are.


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