Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

Donny5 · 12-06-2012 8:22pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

mercenaries in the army of a foreign country

I don't agree with the decision, but it's simply wrong to say they became mercenaries. They became ordinary soldiers in the British military.

goldie fish · 12-06-2012 10:14pm

Other - Please explain.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

No.:(

They swore an oath and violated it.:mad::mad:

There were plenty of Americans who went to Canada or Britain to fight as volunteers in the period between September 1939 and December 1941 (Pearl Harbor), and they had a right to do so despite their own country being neutral.:cool:

But I doubt whether any Americans deserted the US armed forces to join a foreign army in that period, and am certain that any who had done so would never have been pardoned before the moons of Jupiter became a banana plantation. The same should apply to men who swore an oath to Ireland and then broke it to become mercenaries in the army of a foreign country. :eek:

Thats a bit hypocritical, don't you think? After all, we weren't attacked.

jonniebgood1 · 12-06-2012 10:25pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

No.:(

They swore an oath and violated it.:mad::mad:

What was the wording of the oath?

jonniebgood1 · 12-06-2012 10:25pm

It seems that this has been decided upon.

Minister for Defence Alan Shatter has told the Dáil that the Government apologises for the manner in which the deserters were treated by the State after the war.

He said the Government recognises the value and importance of their military contribution to the Allied victory.

Up to 4,500 soldiers fled from the Defence Forces during the Second World War and did not return to their Irish units.

Many of them joined the British Army.

After the war, the De Valera Government published a list of those who deserted.

Anyone who was mentioned in this book was banned from getting a public service job at any level. http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0612/govt-pardon-for-former-soldiers.html

gbee · 12-06-2012 10:29pm

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It seems that this has been decided upon.

Great News. TBH, I did not think they would do the right thing. They've gone further than I expected and it's the tight thing to do.

therewillbe · 12-06-2012 10:51pm

Other - Please explain.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It seems that this has been decided upon.

And rightly so that they were excluded from any state job and I hope they never received any state pension of the State.It is one piece of retro feel good/Lets do a good deed piece for the TRAITORS who helped bring an end to the suffering of MY RELATIONS in the Camps .SHAME ON YOU SHATTER !!!:mad::mad:

jamesbere · 13-06-2012 12:34am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

about time this happened, it was a disgrace the way these men and there families were treated after the men returned.

I am very disappointed that people are against this. These men risked their lives not knowing if they would return against an enemy that would of brushed ireland aside in a couple of days if it had the chance.

Morpheus · 13-06-2012 9:31am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

therewillbe wrote: »

And rightly so that they were excluded from any state job and I hope they never received any state pension of the State.It is one piece of retro feel good/Lets do a good deed piece for the TRAITORS who helped bring an end to the suffering of MY RELATIONS in the Camps .SHAME ON YOU SHATTER !!!:mad::mad:

You have every right to believe that this was the wrong decision based on the oath breaking that these men were involved in, however you have made your argument moot with that stupid racist comment at the end.

So you think that there is simply a religious reason that has seen it decided to pardon these people?

You are saying that you believe that the minister made this decision solely on his own and based on his religious/racial background.

You dont think that the minister has made this decision after years of debate both public and political on the subject?

You dont ever remember other political figures calling for their pardoning?

You dont remember the fact that he has discussed it openly and in an unbiased fashion on way more than one occasion?

and as for the "his relations" bit? I ask you to retract the statement and make an educated intelligent argument instead, you have no right to bring the holocaust or the suffering that both allied POW's and various persecuted races underwent, including the Jews, into this conversation just because the present minister of defence is Jewish. :mad:

therewillbe · 13-06-2012 9:41am

Other - Please explain.

No!My opinion,Am I allowed one? Who is the Fascist now. Traitors are Traitors No matter how much time has passed. Moi a Racist? What a laugh,just making an observation.

Ellis Dee · 13-06-2012 9:47am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

What was the wording of the oath?

I don't know, do you?

But I assume they swore to be loyal to Ireland and to serve for the period they had signed up for. Perhaps it's more or less the same as whatever oath Irish soldiers swear today.

What would have been their position if, something that was always possible, Churchill had decided to invade the Irish Free State?

Do you know of any Swedish, Swiss, Portuguese or Spanish soldiers who deserted their country's armed forces to fight for one or other of the belligerents and were subsequently pardoned for it?

Shatter's decision is a disgrace. and so were those deserters. Their memory will live in ignomeny whatever the Government says. The Government of that day decided that Ireland would remain neutral and men who were serving in our Defence Forces had no right to desert; their duty was to remain and defend that neutrality. They could have waited until they had completed the time they signed up for and then gone abroad to become mercenaries.

Let us hope that the men and women serving in our Defence Forces today are more honourable and have a deeper sense of duty. I believe they have.:cool:

syklops · 13-06-2012 10:05am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

The Governmentof that dayDev decided that Ireland would remain neutral and men who were serving in our Defence Forces had no right to desert; their duty was to remain and defend that neutrality. They could have waited until they had completed the time they signed up for and then gone abroad to become mercenaries.

Dev decided Ireland would remain neutral because he wanted to give Churchill the middle finger. He then gave the middle finger to every free thinking Irishman by giving his condolences on the death of Hitler. Nazi Germany, a great bunch of lads.

Morpheus · 13-06-2012 10:24am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

therewillbe wrote: »

No!My opinion,Am I allowed one? Who is the Fascist now. Traitors are Traitors No matter how much time has passed. Moi a Racist? What a laugh,just making an observation.

You stated that its your opinion shatter made this decision based on his religion only - emphasized by "my relations" in caps.

It is one piece of retro feel good/Lets do a good deed piece for the TRAITORS who helped bring an end to the suffering of MY RELATIONS in the Camps

Devalera was the true traitor. a total c*nt. condolences to hitler? go f**k yourself eamonn, not on my behalf. i hope he rots in hell along with hitler.

Donny5 · 13-06-2012 10:47am

syklops wrote: »

Dev decided Ireland would remain neutral because he wanted to give Churchill the middle finger. He then gave the middle finger to every free thinking Irishman by giving his condolences on the death of Hitler. Nazi Germany, a great bunch of lads.

That doesn't matter. That's politics and outside the realm of the soldier. Deciding to piss off because they didn't like their orders, no matter where they ended up, is desertion.

Morphéus wrote: »

Devalera was the true traitor. a total c*nt. condolences to hitler? go f**k yourself eamonn, not on my behalf. i hope he rots in hell along with hitler.

I agree that Dev was no friend of Ireland, but he was Taoiseach during the Emergency. That means the DF had to follow the orders of his government. Soldiers thinking twice about orders they don't like leads to situations like the Civil War, and soldiers pissing off when they want to do something else is desertion.

jonniebgood1 · 13-06-2012 11:06am

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I don't know, do you?

But I assume they swore to be loyal to Ireland and to serve for the period they had signed up for. Perhaps it's more or less the same as whatever oath Irish soldiers swear today. What would have been their position if, something that was always possible, Churchill had decided to invade the Irish Free State?

It would be better to know rather than assume an oath. I don't know either so I cannot comment further on it. The reason for the question would be that it may have had reference to Britain as we were not declared a Republic at that stage.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Do you know of any Swedish, Swiss, Portuguese or Spanish soldiers who deserted their country's armed forces to fight for one or other of the belligerents and were subsequently pardoned for it?

I would not think we should be copying other countries actions, either then or now.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Shatter's decision is a disgrace. and so were those deserters. Their memory will live in ignomeny whatever the Government says.

This is clearly untrue given the wide welcome currently being given by the public to this decision. You may disagree with the decision but that does not make it ignominious.

jonniebgood1 · 13-06-2012 11:09am

Morphéus wrote: »

Devalera was the true traitor. a total c*nt. condolences to hitler? go f**k yourself eamonn, not on my behalf. i hope he rots in hell along with hitler.

DeValera is a hero in the history of this state. You should withdraw the quoted comment as it is extremely offensive. Disagree with his methods & decisions by all means but not like this.

gbee · 13-06-2012 11:15am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Hasn't this thread come to a conclusion?
Haven't all the argument been made several times already?
Those that want to remain bitter, you will do so without me, I'm off to celebrate and unfollow thread; Job Well Done to all who contributed, I know it helped sway the Minister's mind.

Bye.

Donny5 · 13-06-2012 11:20am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

DeValera is a hero in the history of this state. You should withdraw the quoted comment as it is extremely offensive. Disagree with his methods & decisions by all means but not like this.

Many people, myself included, would disagree strongly with that statement. I also think you asking him to remove his statement is offensive, so I think you should remove that statement about his statement and then I'll remove this statement about your statement about his statement.

Donny5 · 13-06-2012 11:22am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This is clearly untrue given the wide welcome currently being given by the public to this decision. You may disagree with the decision but that does not make it ignominious.

Most people have no idea about this decision. Judging by the news coverage, you'd assume that the deserters were victims in some way, not offenders, and that spin is what swayed the Cabinet, I'd say. It's also a nice distraction from the more current woes at hand.

jonniebgood1 · 13-06-2012 11:39am

Donny5 wrote: »

Many people, myself included, would disagree strongly with that statement. I also think you asking him to remove his statement is offensive, so I think you should remove that statement about his statement and then I'll remove this statement about your statement about his statement.

If you think calling someone a cu*t and telling them to go f**k themselves is proper discussion then I'll leave you to it. Thats schoolyard chat for kids.

Morpheus · 13-06-2012 11:42am

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

DeValera is a hero in the history of this state. You should withdraw the quoted comment as it is extremely offensive. Disagree with his methods & decisions by all means but not like this.

Maybe my language was a bit offensive, maybe the use of the word c**t or f**k off was too harsh, however thats how strongly i feel on the matter. Please note however that my comments were directed to the subject of devalera and not at yourself, I wouldnt engage in such name calling of a fellow poster in a forum for any reason.

No offence was meant towards you but why should I detract my statement as that's my belief? In the end, he was no hero, all the greatness that he may have done in the easter rising or war of independence was undone by his enshrinement of church and state in the constitution, his stagnation of Irelands progress and his handling of political adversaries throughout his career.

Collins is the true hero of this state and his death so early its greatest tragedy.
yet look how DV treated Collins after his assassination (look at the furor over the erection of a fitting memorial over Collins grave).

Finally look how these men who deserted and their families and their descendants were vilified in Irish history as a result of devaleras backwards looking Jurassic beliefs. Was this right? should the deserter not just have been dealt with in an adult manner, court marshalled, dishonorably discharged and then forgotten about? why tar and feather them too? why should they have to leave the country? why couldnt my granduncle live on in peace after all that he did and saw because he took his own personal moral highground?

He didnt come back to visit Ireland, his home, until the early 90s and only when my mother assured him that no longer did anyone talk about deserters or their families? He visited frequently and eventually regretted moving away, he planned to return here but sadly suffered a stroke and died alone, in the USA, where none of his family lived and in the end his final journey home was as an urn of ashes.

an oath is an honor bound promise, yet how many promises to the people have our various govts made through the years and not upheld and yet we continue to trust and believe in them?

Oasis_Dublin · 13-06-2012 2:20pm

Other - Please explain.

jamesbere wrote: »

about time this happened, it was a disgrace the way these men and there families were treated after the men returned.

I am very disappointed that people are against this. These men risked their lives not knowing if they would return against an enemy that would of brushed ireland aside in a couple of days if it had the chance.

Except that the list is a list of deserters, and just that. It is NOT a lift of men who went to fight for the Allies. Therein lies the problem.

therightstuff · 13-06-2012 2:27pm

My grandfather deserted and fought and was wounded in Normandy against the most evil force in the history of civilisation. I am very proud of him.

As for the people who talk of oaths etc. I would remind them of the Nuremberg defence- blindly obeying diktats and creeds from higher authorities was as wrong in the 1940's as it is now. The Second World War and Ireland's reaction to it was a supervening event to anyone who swore an oath to defend this country. De Valera was too worried about the Ould enemy to recognise the danger of the new one. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool.

Oasis_Dublin · 13-06-2012 2:36pm

Other - Please explain.

therightstuff wrote: »

My grandfather deserted and fought and was wounded in Normandy against the most evil force in the history of civilisation. I am very proud of him.

As for the people who talk of oaths etc. I would remind them of the Nuremberg defence- blindly obeying diktats and creeds from higher authorities was as wrong in the 1940's as it is now. The Second World War and Ireland's reaction to it was a supervening event to anyone who swore an oath to defend this country. De Valera was too worried about the Ould enemy to recognise the danger of the new one. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool.

Slight difference between genocide and desertion there. A sovereign state has the right to make its own decisions. "Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool."

therightstuff · 13-06-2012 2:47pm

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Slight difference between genocide and desertion there. A sovereign state has the right to make its own decisions. "Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool."

Yes there is a obviously difference between desertion and genocide. And the deserters fought against it while others buried their heads in the sand.

You're entitled to your opinion, that's why men like my grandfather fought. By the same rationale I am entitled to call you a fool.
The conversation is ended:)

Oasis_Dublin · 13-06-2012 3:01pm

Other - Please explain.

therightstuff wrote: »

Yes there is a obviously difference between desertion and genocide. And the deserters fought against it while others buried their heads in the sand.

You're entitled to your opinion, that's why men like my grandfather fought. By the same rationale I am entitled to call you a fool.
The conversation is ended:)

I'm glad to see you that understand the difference. Your poorly constructed, lazy, and rather ignorant sentence certainly suggested otherwise.

My grand uncle was able to fight in the Allied forces and my Granddad was able to remain in the Irish army. Neither of them deserted anyone. Toddle along now boy.

gizmo555 · 13-06-2012 6:28pm

Other - Please explain.

Mr Shatter gave us a telling insight into his mindset as it relates to this topic with his reference to "Londonderry" on the Dáil record today (13/06/12).

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter is under fire today after referring to Derry as Londonderry.

His comments were made in the Dail when he was putting through legislation to extend anti-terrorist powers under the Offences Against the State Act.

He was listing out numerous recent attacks on PSNI officers and other security personnel when he made the gaffe while outlining some of the reasons why the powers should remain.

The act was introduced after the tragic Omagh bombings in 1998.

Mr Shatter said: “Two pipe bombs set off in Londonderry on January 19, 2012.”

His comments quickly went viral and are trending on Twitter.

The name of the Northern Irish city has been the subject of an ongoing debate but the common reference in Ireland is Derry.

neilled · 13-06-2012 6:38pm

Other - Please explain.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It would be better to know rather than assume an oath. I don't know either so I cannot comment further on it. The reason for the question would be that it may have had reference to Britain as we were not declared a Republic at that stage.

.

I do solemnly swear (or declare) that I have this day freely and voluntarily enlisted as a soldier in Oglaigh na hEireann; that I will faithfully serve as such for the period of from the day of 19 (unless sooner discharged by proper authority) and under the conditions prescribed in accordance with law; and I will accept such pay, bounty, rations and clothing as may from time to time be prescribed in accordance with law;

And I further solemnly swear (or declare) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to our country and faithfully serve and defend her against all her enemies whomsoever and that I will submit myself to discipline, and obey without question the orders of the officers appointed over me according to law.

therightstuff wrote: »

My grandfather deserted and fought and was wounded in Normandy against the most evil force in the history of civilisation. I am very proud of him.

As for the people who talk of oaths etc. I would remind them of the Nuremberg defence- blindly obeying diktats and creeds from higher authorities was as wrong in the 1940's as it is now. The Second World War and Ireland's reaction to it was a supervening event to anyone who swore an oath to defend this country. De Valera was too worried about the Ould enemy to recognise the danger of the new one. Anyone who claims otherwise is clearly a fool.

The auld enemy made it clear that had they felt the need they would have attacked and occupied the Free State had they felt it necessary for their survival, and the other belligerent power acted in exactly the same manner in europe to other neutral powers. Had things gone the wrong way for the UK, your grandfather might have found himself going back to ireland with a fixed bayonet and a round of .303 up the breech for his former comrades in arms whom he deserted. Had he decided he didn't want to go along with the UK's plans because of his "conscience" he'd have spent years in a very unpleasant military slammer or if he escaped, he would have been chased down by the authorities for years.

jamesbere · 13-06-2012 7:33pm

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

I would like to know do the people that are against the men been pardoned believe it was right how their families were treated after they returned from the war.

gizmo555 · 13-06-2012 7:42pm

Other - Please explain.

jamesbere wrote: »

I would like to know do the people that are against the men been pardoned believe it was right how their families were treated after they returned from the war.

The state's response in banning these men from public sector employment for seven years was measured and proportionate.

therewillbe · 13-06-2012 9:29pm

Other - Please explain.

gizmo555 wrote: »

Mr Shatter gave us a telling insight into his mindset as it relates to this topic with his reference to "Londonderry" on the Dáil record today (13/06/12).

JUSTICE Minister Alan Shatter is under fire today after referring to Derry as Londonderry.

His comments were made in the Dail when he was putting through legislation to extend anti-terrorist powers under the Offences Against the State Act.

He was listing out numerous recent attacks on PSNI officers and other security personnel when he made the gaffe while outlining some of the reasons why the powers should remain.

The act was introduced after the tragic Omagh bombings in 1998.

Mr Shatter said: “Two pipe bombs set off in Londonderry on January 19, 2012.”

His comments quickly went viral and are trending on Twitter.

The name of the Northern Irish city has been the subject of an ongoing debate but the common reference in Ireland is Derry.

Well well Mr Shatter,Prone to gaffes or what! Now this is another cock up by this guy.

Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

Comments