Getting a job without contacts. Is it possible in Ireland?

caff · 14-06-2012 01:51PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

nepotism is everywhere in ireland and it still works when youre looking for a job,i think in ireland its impossible to get a job without knowing someone who knows someone or being buddys with the guy whos doing the hiring and firing as above..

I got my current job without knowing anyone, out of people I know I can only think of one who got a job because they knew someone who did the hiring and firing.

Gurgle · 14-06-2012 01:55PM

Mike87 wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point.... Just because somebody is college qualified doesnt automatically mean they deserve a job more then I do.

Well, actually...that's exactly what 'qualified' means.

You imply that you're working in a job where there should be a qualified professional. This being the case, Mr Fishing Buddy should lose his job for being recklessly irresponsible.

<The following is fictitious. I know nothing about you or your job>
Derron Brown impression:
This isn't the case. You work in.... IT, doing... network admin and support. Your fishing buddy is the owner & manager of a small company where a qualified IT professional would be wasted anyway.... how am I doing?

Gurgle · 14-06-2012 01:59PM

I have never had a job where 'knowing someone' got me in. I did get a recommendation for my current job from a former colleague who got here first, but that just got my CV straight to management without the curse of recruitment agencies.

cricketfan · 14-06-2012 02:12PM

Gurgle, well I guess that has to go down as getting some help. I'm seeing both sides of the coin here.

I would think though most people who got a start somewhere probably won't want to advertise it too much.

Before I opened this thread yesterday I have asked as many people as I know to tell me if they've experienced it. OK, it's not scientific but it came out about 50/50.

We're a small country and you do tend to bump into the same people time and time again particularly if you stay broadly in the one professional sector and I think people are comfortable with someone they know rather than taking a chance on an outsider.

Unfortunately for me at the moment in life it is like I just cannot get membership of an exclusive club.

Mr. Loverman · 14-06-2012 02:28PM

cricketfan wrote: »

Unfortunately for me at the moment in life it is like I just cannot get membership of an exclusive club.

I'm sorry, but this is not the reason you cannot get a job. I know you want to believe it's the reason, and nothing I say will change your mind, but you are holding yourself back by believing this fallacy.

Write a good cover letter, write a good CV, get some interview training, and in general try to be more optimistic; things will eventually work out for you.

Mike87 · 14-06-2012 02:29PM

MrTsSnickers wrote: »

Just because you fish with that guy doesn't mean you deserve a job more than someone with a degree and appropriate experience.

I didnt say I deserve it more. We deserve it every bit as much. Im just saying I dont see why some people look down there noses at somebody when they realise that the person got their job because the knew someone. I just think its very begrudging.

Gurgle... close but no cigar

I have a network position in a bank. Before that I was teaching. Both of those jobs came from fishing buddies, no fancy college degree needed

Sappa · 14-06-2012 02:46PM

It happens with every society not just Ireland.
A Polish supervisor in my wifes friends hotel,gets most of the job openings filled by his relatives in Poland,as soon as a job opens up he flys them in and they start that week.
When the Irish go to America,they use there contacts,it's how Ireland works and it's how every other nation works.

misterdeeds · 14-06-2012 03:58PM

Yes my last 3 jobs were from phone calls and had no experience whatsoever I spoke to complete strangers on all 3 occasions and got all 3 jobs , starting a new job soon and it is in the same industury as my first job all thanks to a phone call

As the saying goes its who you know not what you know

ps: This still goes on in Ireland to this day

spacecookie555 · 14-06-2012 04:15PM

Mike87 wrote: »

I didnt say I deserve it more. We deserve it every bit as much. Im just saying I dont see why some people look down there noses at somebody when they realise that the person got their job because the knew someone. I just think its very begrudging.

Gurgle... close but no cigar I have a network position in a bank. Before that I was teaching. Both of those jobs came from fishing buddies, no fancy college degree needed

One of the explanations as to why the banks failed right there!! You get qualified for a reason so you're certified that you have the education and intelligence to be able to do the job, and what could you possibly teach without an education??? Knitting??? :eek:

Mr. Loverman · 14-06-2012 04:19PM

spacecookie555 wrote: »

One of the explanations as to why the banks failed right there!! You get qualified for a reason so you're certified that you have the education and intelligence to be able to do the job, and what could you possibly teach without an education??? Knitting??? :eek:

I'm pretty sure a bank's IT department aren't responsible for handing out mortgages...

Gurgle · 14-06-2012 04:25PM

Mike87 wrote: »

I have a network position in a bank. Before that I was teaching. Both of those jobs came from fishing buddies, no fancy college degree needed

Banks, I can't say I'm surprised. But then I wouldn't be surprised to hear the entire back-office has been operated entirely by Labrador puppies for the last 20 years.

Is that teaching in the sense of a class of kids in a state funded school?
Please give more details, I know some nice people who would be interested to hear of this.

Minevah · 14-06-2012 05:01PM

Everyone in my office either previously worked for the company and came back or else their relative works in a different department!

Me,I'm the odd one out....didn't know a soul in the company when I started! So it is possible...

Mike87 · 14-06-2012 05:04PM

Gurgle wrote: »

Is that teaching in the sense of a class of kids in a state funded school?
Please give more details, I know some nice people who would be interested to hear of this.

Nope. Delivering IT courses for a private company.

Let me get this straight Spacecookie, are you really trying to say that a person couldnt possibly be educated unless they have a college degree? :rolleyes:

spacecookie555 · 14-06-2012 05:30PM

Mike87 wrote: »

Nope. Delivering IT courses for a private company.

Let me get this straight Spacecookie, are you really trying to say that a person couldnt possibly be educated unless they have a college degree? :rolleyes:

Not at all and theres no need to generalise, my father hasnt got a college degree but has about 30years experience in building but someone who studied it and got a degree in it but has about 5years experience would get the job first, in that case imo thats just ridiculous but in the case where you will be teaching people or working in a position that requires a lot of skills that in fairness you wouldn't pick up through normal life then yes you should get an education. The reason why Ireland is starting to cop on is because people are getting more educated and we won't keep growing unless it continues.
The way you refered to a degree above is quite sad imo "a fancy college degree" whats so fancy about the fact that you wanted to better your job skills so you could have a chance of getting into a higher paid job someday?? I have no problem with someone who hasnt got a degree but can actually do their job very well but im sick of walking into places where sometimes even the receptionists are incapable of using a computer because they never learned and some sadly never will because they have the same attitude that they don't need a "fancy" education.
Knowledge is power and theres nothing "fancy" about trying to get more.

Mike87 · 14-06-2012 06:07PM

spacecookie555 wrote: »

Not at all and theres no need to generalise, my father hasnt got a college degree but has about 30years experience in building but someone who studied it and got a degree in it but has about 5years experience would get the job first, in that case imo thats just ridiculous but in the case where you will be teaching people or working in a position that requires a lot of skills that in fairness you wouldn't pick up through normal life then yes you should get an education. The reason why Ireland is starting to cop on is because people are getting more educated and we won't keep growing unless it continues.
The way you refered to a degree above is quite sad imo "a fancy college degree" whats so fancy about the fact that you wanted to better your job skills so you could have a chance of getting into a higher paid job someday?? I have no problem with someone who hasnt got a degree but can actually do their job very well but im sick of walking into places where sometimes even the receptionists are incapable of using a computer because they never learned and some sadly never will because they have the same attitude that they don't need a "fancy" education.
Knowledge is power and theres nothing "fancy" about trying to get more.

It would be a huge waste for me to go back to college. It would be like asking your father to go to college to get a degree in building even though he has 30+ years of hands on experience.

THe problem is, when you apply for a job the first thing they ask is "whats your degree in.... oh you dont have a degree, sorry, we arent accepting applications from ehhh....your sort". WHich boggles the mind since anyone fresh from college (without a few years experience) wouldnt last 2 minutes in my job (specifically network security).

So yeh, I still stand by my original statement. I think me knowing the person doing the hiring/firing makes up for the fact that you have a college degree and I dont.

And I dont see why everyone is getting so uppety with me. Do yous begrudge me my job that much? Would you rather if I give up work and went on the dole?

Mr. Loverman · 14-06-2012 06:13PM

Well the things a college degree prove are:

a) you can commit to things
b) you can see things through
c) you can get with the programme
d) you probably aren't a complete moron

But a degree doesn't guarantee d).

I've worked with some brilliant people who had a degree, and some brilliant people who didn't have a degree.

Mike87 · 14-06-2012 06:37PM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Well the things a college degree prove are:

a) you can commit to things
b) you can see things through
c) you can get with the programme
d) you probably aren't a complete moron

But a degree doesn't guarantee d).

I've worked with some brilliant people who had a degree, and some brilliant people who didn't have a degree.

Not sure if that was directed at me.

1) A degree is handy for begining your career and thats about it.
2) A degree (in IT anyway) is just the beginning. You dont get a degree and say "right thats my education finished"
3) When I apply for senior networking roles and I get told "no degree- no interview" its like been told "if you werent at playschool then no interview"
4) Irish people have an absolute fixation on college degrees and it really pisses me off.
5) I have worked abroad in other countries and I could always say "no I dont have a degree, but I do have these other specialised qualifications along with 10 years experience" and that would be fine. Doesnt work in Ireland.
6) If you havent got a degree, and finding it hard to get a job take up fishing. Its the new golf.

spacecookie555 · 14-06-2012 07:13PM

Mike87 wrote: »

It would be a huge waste for me to go back to college. It would be like asking your father to go to college to get a degree in building even though he has 30+ years of hands on experience.

THe problem is, when you apply for a job the first thing they ask is "whats your degree in.... oh you dont have a degree, sorry, we arent accepting applications from ehhh....your sort". WHich boggles the mind since anyone fresh from college (without a few years experience) wouldnt last 2 minutes in my job (specifically network security).

So yeh, I still stand by my original statement. I think me knowing the person doing the hiring/firing makes up for the fact that you have a college degree and I dont.

And I dont see why everyone is getting so uppety with me. Do yous begrudge me my job that much? Would you rather if I give up work and went on the dole?

I agree with you that its not necessary in every job, some are just silly but others are unbelievably necessary not so long ago healthcare assistants were working without qualifications, they had no official training, most got the job because of a friend or reference.
This meant that they did not know proper procedure, legally they werent allowed do half the jobs they were doing such as putting people into hoists, bathing them etc... so you had people who were looking after the vulnerable, old, sick, disabled, etc... who werent even trained to do so. How would you feel about someone caring for you or a relative of yours when sick who wasn't even qualified, scary or what?

It has only come in recently that they HAVE to get their Fetac level 5 now in Health Service Skills even if they are working as a healthcare assistant for the last 40years to qualify for the job anymore and rightly so. There were so many cases of neglect, abuse etc.. going on in nursing homes that was recently uncovered and a lot of people that were abusing or neglecting were found to not be qualified or even in some cases not be garda vetted, at least now if you have to get qualified first you will mostly have people who actually want to care for people, you wont have as many who just want a job to pay the bills. Qualifications for a job also tends to weed out those who really have no interest in the job and just see it as a means to an end so will not put the proper effort in or actually bother to even do things right. In this case thank God Ireland got obsessed with qualifications and degrees.

Gurgle · 15-06-2012 09:41AM

Mike87 wrote: »

Nope. Delivering IT courses for a private company.

Ah, fair enough.
I wouldn't see that as a graduate job tbh, the technical skills are very much secondary to the ability to explain stuff well.

Personality > Qualification

Gurgle · 15-06-2012 10:00AM

Mike87 wrote: »

It would be a huge waste for me to go back to college...

I think me knowing the person doing the hiring/firing makes up for the fact that you have a college degree and I dont.

It has worked for you so far, but do you have an reliable queue of people who a) can offer you your next job, and b) put fishing buddies above qualified staff?

Enough to get you from here (whatever age) to 68?

Mike87 wrote: »

I dont see why everyone is getting so uppety with me. Do yous begrudge me my job that much? Would you rather if I give up work and went on the dole?

Not at all, fair play to you. This skill at making friends (and presumably some kind of ability to do the jobs) is the lynchpin that's keeping you employed.

She Devil · 15-06-2012 10:14AM

Where I live it's most definitely who you know !!! Which is very unfortunate because no jobs are being advertised, you only hear of new positions when they are gone! So frustrating!

djk1000 · 15-06-2012 10:18AM

Mike87 wrote: »

It would be a huge waste for me to go back to college.

Take it from someone that didn't bother with college for a long time, if you don't go, it will bite you in the ass. A good friend of mine went into an IT job straight out of school. 15 years later he's downsized, unemployed, unqualified and no one will give him an interview without a degree.

Mike87 wrote: »

And I dont see why everyone is getting so uppety with me. Do yous begrudge me my job that much? Would you rather if I give up work and went on the dole?

Don't think people are getting uppety, take it as advice from people that seem to have more experience of the way the world works than you. What happens when the bank lets you go to save money and you've run out of people you know that can give you a job?

Life has become measurably easier and more enjoyable for me since I went back and did a degree, I'm doing a post grad now and even more doors are opening.

Eoin · 15-06-2012 11:00AM

djk1000 wrote: »

Take it from someone that didn't bother with college for a long time, if you don't go, it will bite you in the ass. A good friend of mine went into an IT job straight out of school. 15 years later he's downsized, unemployed, unqualified and no one will give him an interview without a degree

If you have 15 years of IT experience, you're very unlikely to be refused an interview solely because you don't have a degree, unless it's in a very specialised area.

Experienced IT people are very much in demand at the moment, so he must be doing something wrong to not get to interview stage.

cricketfan · 15-06-2012 11:06AM

I think in a 'normal' market a degree should only be necessary for the start of a career. I think at the moment, with 50 or so going for each job or whatever the number is, I think employers are using a degree qualification as a cut off between being selected for interview or not.

Agree with one comment above, during work you do meet some quite brilliant people who have good degrees and then some complete idiots. I have wondered how and what did they do to get that degree in the first place. I have suspected some probably haven't got degrees but employers haven't checked their qualifications.

djk1000 · 15-06-2012 01:16PM

Eoin wrote: »

If you have 15 years of IT experience, you're very unlikely to be refused an interview solely because you don't have a degree, unless it's in a very specialised area.

Experienced IT people are very much in demand at the moment, so he must be doing something wrong to not get to interview stage.

I get the impression he didn't bother his arse to get certifications and qualifications along the way, he didn't get promoted much and the technology he'd be expert in is pretty outdated. I think my point stands though, if he did get those pieces of paper along the way, he'd be in a much better position now.
Luckily, the redundancy money will cover him while he goes to do his degree.

Eoin · 15-06-2012 01:56PM

OK fair enough, but those are certifications, which is a different ball game to a degree. Also, he just sounds lazy, which is probably the main problem.

Gurgle · 15-06-2012 02:26PM

Eoin wrote: »

If you have 15 years of IT experience, you're very unlikely to be refused an interview solely because you don't have a degree

There weren't that many places to get an IT degree in the 90s. IT was something you picked up along the way to an engineering degree.

Stheno · 15-06-2012 10:10PM

Eoin wrote: »

It might exist, but it's not everywhere and it's not impossible to get a job without knowing someone. That's a gross generalisation.

I've never known someone when I've gone for a job. In one job out of the last eight, the interviewer told me he'd asked some of my peers in the industry about me, and that was it.

It happens though especialy in small companies, where to save agency fees, staff will be told of vacancies and asked if they know someone. I've seen such people get and not get jobs though

djk1000 wrote: »

Take it from someone that didn't bother with college for a long time, if you don't go, it will bite you in the ass. A good friend of mine went into an IT job straight out of school. 15 years later he's downsized, unemployed, unqualified and no one will give him an interview without a degree.

Don't think people are getting uppety, take it as advice from people that seem to have more experience of the way the world works than you. What happens when the bank lets you go to save money and you've run out of people you know that can give you a job?

Life has become measurably easier and more enjoyable for me since I went back and did a degree, I'm doing a post grad now and even more doors are opening.

Eoin wrote: »

If you have 15 years of IT experience, you're very unlikely to be refused an interview solely because you don't have a degree, unless it's in a very specialised area.

Experienced IT people are very much in demand at the moment, so he must be doing something wrong to not get to interview stage.

Eoin wrote: »

OK fair enough, but those are certifications, which is a different ball game to a degree. Also, he just sounds lazy, which is probably the main problem.

Yup your mate sounds lazy, I wouldn't be in IT still if I hadn't spent the last fifteen years basically upskilling and recertifying regularly.

Mr. Loverman · 16-06-2012 07:55AM

Gurgle wrote: »

There weren't that many places to get an IT degree in the 90s. IT was something you picked up along the way to an engineering degree.

That actually isn't true. I got my degree in the 90s and had loads of choice: UCD, TCD, DCU, DIT, etc. But I accept your general point: IT back then was not a "normal" college choice.

This thread has made me think of something though.

Growing up we're told to "do your best" and everything will work out for you... that actually isn't very good advice for the real world. For example, office politics are much more important than competency.

Bandana boy · 17-06-2012 10:48AM

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Growing up we're told to "do your best" and everything will work out for you... that actually isn't very good advice for the real world. For example, office politics are much more important than competency.

As gross generalisations go ,i would disagree
For Sure office politics are important if you want to succeed but also so is competency,visibility,pace,attitude and a score of others.
I have never seen somebody who just had the office politics piece sewn up succeed, in fact the opposite is true in my experience.

Regards OP's question
Ireland is a very small place and it is usually quite easy to find somebody's who has worked with your candidate before.
If you cannot ,this is often a red flag ,obviously this does not pertain to entry level jobs.

I have never known anybody who has got me a job ,but I subsequently found out that ref checks were done with people the hiring manager(or a peer in the company) knew personally I had exposure to and not just the ones I provided.

Getting a job without contacts. Is it possible in Ireland?

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