Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

Fromthetrees · 13-06-2012 10:31PM

RMD wrote: »

I'll put money on it Republican posters will try to find some way of discrediting that survey as it doesn't suit their ideology of everyone hoping for an UI. I'd love to see an UI eventually, but if people honestly think that it's overwhelmingly supported by Catholics up north they're living in lalaland. Religion is becoming less paramount up north now that there is peace, a certain religion no longer means a certain political view accompanying it.

Isn't it quite frightening that 7% of the population up north would want a United Ireland now, at this current time your essentially dealing with a literal 'I'd die for Ireland attitude' to unify the country. We'd implode.

I think money matters more to the younger generation up north than the national question both sides of the divide, completely hypothetically (obviously) but say in 20 years time if the UK decided to cut the subsidy completely and the Irish government offered to match it I think there'd be a majority for a UI, have no proof for that though, just my opinion.

golfball37 · 14-06-2012 11:07AM

Why would anyone in NI want to join up with this failed state ffs?

We abandoned them to their Unionist and B Special masters for 50 years, then made them pariahs for supporting the armed resistance to that situation.

In short I am not surprised by that survey and I would consider myself a Republican. I live here and I want nothing to do with this state ffs.

maccored · 14-06-2012 11:32AM

when are people going to realise a UI is a long term goal that involves more than just the north joining up with the southern government?

Lawrence1895 · 14-06-2012 01:37PM

maccored wrote: »

when are people going to realise a UI is a long term goal that involves more than just the north joining up with the southern government?

Germany's reunification was when? 1990? And there are still two separate states in the minds of many Germans, even if some time went by. That's what can happen, if you rush into things, imo

VinLieger · 14-06-2012 01:48PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

Germany's reunification was when? 1990? And there are still two separate states in the minds of many Germans, even if some time went by. That's what can happen, if you rush into things, imo

Not sure if you can call the fall of communism "rushing" it

Lawrence1895 · 14-06-2012 09:06PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Not sure if you can call the fall of communism "rushing" it

I was not talking about the fall of communism, which was inevitable. But the way, the people from East Germany had to adapt to the laws, lifestyle, rules, etc. of West Germany came a bit too fast for some of them. I have parts of the family living in the former GDR, and they often told me.

maccored · 14-06-2012 10:02PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

Germany's reunification was when? 1990? And there are still two separate states in the minds of many Germans, even if some time went by. That's what can happen, if you rush into things, imo

Thats exactly what I mean by long term goal. Many seem to think a UI is basically something that could happen over a few years and basically just mean the north being included with the other 26 counties, but all still run the same way. Thats silly as it wouldnt work and wouldnt improve anything.

Others view a UI as something that would have to develop gradually over a much longer time period and end up with a completely re-invented political and social structure - something ideally that would be better and more economically sound that what either part of the country has at present. To me, that makes sense.

celtictiger32 · 15-06-2012 03:03PM

Lars1916 wrote: »

I was not talking about the fall of communism, which was inevitable. But the way, the people from East Germany had to adapt to the laws, lifestyle, rules, etc. of West Germany came a bit too fast for some of them. I have parts of the family living in the former GDR, and they often told me.

i would have thought that would be a given i.e. same laws, rules etc. im sure when the UI comes about the 6 counties will have our laws and rules. obviuosly there will be an 'integration period' of some sort and things wont happen overnight

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 12:04PM

Thought it was interesting to hear talk about former GAA stars Peter Canavan and Jarlath Burns becoming more involved in SF, possibly as new MLAs

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 12:06PM

golfball37 wrote: »

Why would anyone in NI want to join up with this failed state ffs?

We abandoned them to their Unionist and B Special masters for 50 years, then made them pariahs for supporting the armed resistance to that situation.

In short I am not surprised by that survey and I would consider myself a Republican. I live here and I want nothing to do with this state ffs.

Its not about joining the failed state. A new state would have to be created with a new government voted by all the population of Ireland.

Sierra Oscar · 16-06-2012 04:07PM

SF are gone very quite since the referendum, despite the fact that the Eurozone crisis is deepening. SF have their eyes on the Greek elections this weekend, and are undoubtedly ****ting a brick with the prospect of SYRIZA getting elected - because if that occurs Greece will be booted out of the Eurozone and it is only then that the real suffering for the Greeks would likely come to the forefront.

gerryo777 · 16-06-2012 04:15PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

SF have their eyes on the Greek elections this weekend, and are undoubtedly ****ting a brick with the prospect of SYRIZA getting elected - because if that occurs Greece will be booted out of the Eurozone and it is only then that the real suffering for the Greeks would likely come to the forefront.

A lot of presumptions there, all wrong BTW!

Sierra Oscar · 16-06-2012 05:10PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

A lot of presumptions there, all wrong BTW!

We will wait and see then.

All political parties will be nervous of the outcome in the Greek elections, each for their own reasons.

gerryo777 · 16-06-2012 05:42PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

We will wait and see then.

All political parties will be nervous of the outcome in the Greek elections, each for their own reasons.

I think SF are more interested in the suffering they're own electorate are suffering.
The rich in Ireland are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.
The divide has never been so great while the rest of us pick up the tab.

The whole of europe is nervous about the greek election, because the amount of power merkel has over the rest of europe has meant nothing has been done to address the fundamentals of the debt problem that will destroy the euro project.

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 05:48PM

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

SF are gone very quite since the referendum, despite the fact that the Eurozone crisis is deepening. SF have their eyes on the Greek elections this weekend, and are undoubtedly ****ting a brick with the prospect of SYRIZA getting elected - because if that occurs Greece will be booted out of the Eurozone and it is only then that the real suffering for the Greeks would likely come to the forefront.

If Greece are booted out it will show that FG were fools to go to the IMF money lenders and to trust an establishment that will throw you in the gutter when your out of cash.

16-06-2012 05:56PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If Greece are booted out it will show that FG were fools to go to the IMF money lenders and to trust an establishment that will throw you in the gutter when your out of cash.

Who else should they have gone to?

Enda would have been better cutting public pay 70% and raising the lower tax rate to 60% overnight :rolleyes:

The IMF have helped Greece alot less than the EU have and they get it thrown back in there face, in the form of non implementation of reforms.

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 06:06PM

Gary Ashy Hedgehog wrote: »

Who else should they have gone to?

Enda would have been better cutting public pay 70% and raising the lower tax rate to 60% overnight :rolleyes:

The IMF have helped Greece alot less than the EU have and they get it thrown back in there face, in the form of non implementation of reforms.

The IMF gave money on terms that meant it would be repayed by the working people. I don't mean the working class but by people of all backgrounds who work for a living. The bankers and corporations were to be protected.

Without the IMF everyone would have shared the hit.

16-06-2012 06:17PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

The IMF gave money on terms that meant it would be repayed by the working people. I don't mean the working class but by people of all backgrounds who work for a living. The bankers and corporations were to be protected.

Without the IMF everyone would have shared the hit.

This is the crap that's always trotted out.
Forget the bank debt, Ireland problem is one where we spend more than we make. i.e we pay people in the public sector too much. The IMF and EU are lending us money to pay the wages of our public sector, alongside re paying this bank debt.

The bank debt is insignificant when compared with compounded debt that we incur as a country, that will be cleared within 15 years. The main problem that's constantly ignored by sinn fein and the socialists is that Ireland's future is ****ed because of our own making as a people. Constantly electing politicians who buy votes by increasing pay for ps workers and making marginal tax cuts for the masses.

Fine Gael had no choice others than to take the bailout, he could have told the bondholders and eu to piss off that we wouldn't pay it, what do you think then, they would lend us money to pay our state debts?

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 06:23PM

Gary Ashy Hedgehog wrote: »

This is the crap that's always trotted out.
Forget the bank debt, Ireland problem is one where we spend more than we make. i.e we pay people in the public sector too much. The IMF and EU are lending us money to pay the wages of our public sector, alongside re paying this bank debt.

The bank debt is insignificant when compared with compounded debt that we incur as a country, that will be cleared within 15 years. The main problem that's constantly ignored by sinn fein and the socialists is that Ireland's future is ****ed because of our own making as a people. Constantly electing politicians who buy votes by increasing pay for ps workers and making marginal tax cuts for the masses.

Fine Gael had no choice others than to take the bailout, he could have told the bondholders and eu to piss off that we wouldn't pay it, what do you think then, they would lend us money to pay our state debts?

Realign the public sector to reduce the yearly deficit and a better deal would have been offered. We would also be in a better position to renegotiate repayments or to tell them to eff off as needs be.

the_syco · 16-06-2012 06:36PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Its also a case of SF like to tell these people exactly what they want to hear which is why they are polling so well, since they dont have to make any hard decisions regarding who does and doesnt get money etc and because of this they can always take the more popular side of anything they want which no government is ever able to do specifically this one thanks to the god awful situation we are in.

This won't change until they're in office, but by then we'll really be up sh|t creek.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Realign the public sector to reduce the yearly deficit and a better deal would have been offered. We would also be in a better position to renegotiate repayments or to tell them to eff off as needs be.

If we tell them to eff off, we won't have the money to pay the nurses, the gardai, or the dole money.

Actually, if we cut the dole by 50% (or more), would we go from being in the red, to being in the black?

gerryo777 · 16-06-2012 06:44PM

the_syco wrote: »

This won't change until they're in office, but by then we'll really be up sh|t creek.

If we tell them to eff off, we won't have the money to pay the nurses, the gardai, or the dole money.

Actually, if we cut the dole by 50% (or more), would we go from being in the red, to being in the black?

Why don't we use benchmarking anymore?
Benchmark PS wages to the same private sector employees wage.

The sacred cow that is the CPA is crippling this country, imagine how the equivalent German PS worker feels when he realises that the Irish guy is getting far more than he is......

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 06:48PM

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, if we cut the dole by 50% (or more), would we go from being in the red, to being in the black?

I'm not sure if that would be enough. Interested to know though. There should be a reformed dole system. Give people more if thats what they need to get a job. I see no problem with giving someone a E3000 car loan to help them get a job if they can prove they want a job.

fasttalkerchat · 16-06-2012 06:49PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

Why don't we use benchmarking anymore?
Benchmark PS wages to the same private sector employees wage.

The sacred cow that is the CPA is crippling this country, imagine how the equivalent German PS worker feels when he realises that the Irish guy is getting far more than he is......

Benchmarking wages is dangerous because it creates an upwards trend.

gerryo777 · 16-06-2012 06:59PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Benchmarking wages is dangerous because it creates an upwards trend.

It was ok when wages were rising, wasn't good enough for the PS when it started going the other way.

Anyway we're going well off topic here.

the_syco · 16-06-2012 11:26PM

gerryo777 wrote: »

Why don't we use benchmarking anymore?
Benchmark PS wages to the same private sector employees wage.

IMO, benchmarking was a load of bollox to make it look like someones doing their job, and they'd get a rise if they did.

What sector are they benchmarked against?

If SF got into power, would they force benchmarking to happen? Do people here think that it would actually work to save money, or fail and cost more money?

JustinDee · 17-06-2012 07:39AM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Realign the public sector to reduce the yearly deficit and a better deal would have been offered. We would also be in a better position to renegotiate repayments or to tell them to eff off as needs be.

The unions would have frozen the country through national strikes were the public sector 're-aligned'.
The very same unions amongst which one (headed by someone on Central Bank board) has almost got go ahead for 100m re-building of Liberty Hall. Not a revamp but a spanking new version. Nice work if you can get it in these 'austere' times.

thecommietommy · 17-06-2012 06:08PM

Gary Ashy Hedgehog wrote: »

Fine Gael had no choice others than to take the bailout, he could have told the bondholders and eu to piss off that we wouldn't pay it, what do you think then, they would lend us money to pay our state debts?

No, we had a choice, we could have funded oursleves with state reserves such as the National Pension Reserve Fund ( €60 Billion in 2008 ) and eventually returned to the markets. Sure their would have been very tough cuts etc introduced, but instead the servile Gombens in FG/FF/Lab gave most of it to the bondholders :rolleyes:

Laminations · 18-06-2012 02:05PM

Just to clarify:

The SF supporters here are advocating swingeing cuts, a reallignment of the PS (aka massive redundancies) and reverse benchmarking (aka massive PS paycuts). You guys do know that the party you support is against austerity and cuts right? You are suggesting an economically right wing solution.

thecommietommy wrote: »

we had a choice, we could have funded oursleves with state reserves such as the National Pension Reserve Fund ( €60 Billion in 2008 )

Unless you have a time machine, pointing out what we had does nothing but criticise FF.

RandomName2 · 18-06-2012 04:05PM

poeticseraphim wrote: »

An interesting question for politics in general not just Sinn Féin. Can a party that affiliated itself with an organisation or multiple organisations like the IRA or PIRA, in the time they did, ever be integrated into legitimate politics to the extent that they could form a govt?

Possibly - if they disavowed the organisations that they previously had relations with. It would help if members of those organisations were not senior members of the political party as well.

Saying that the crimes of the organisations were actually crimes, instead of being apologists for these actions. Indeed, the party still maintains connections to 'dissidents'.

Maintaining the old standard, the old name, and harking to a cultural tradition epitomised by those organisations also makes it impossible to divorce the two.

If a party uses hammers and sickles, red colours in its iconography, calls its members 'comrades' and itself the Communist Party, I (and most people) would be liable to call them communists.

So, as such, while Sinn Fein continues to espouse the tactics and morals of nationalist-socialist vigilantism, anarchism, and terrorism I will have no need to examine my views on the party's legitimacy.

And this really is the rub, and why Fianna Fail, Labour or Fine Gael are not analogous to SF as it currently stands.

maccored · 18-06-2012 04:18PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

So, as such, while Sinn Fein continues to espouse the tactics and morals of nationalist-socialist vigilantism, anarchism, and terrorism

g'wan explain how SF 'continues' to do those things for me as I dont get it.

Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

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