Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

poeticseraphim

Ok lets NOT get this one locked PLEASE ?:-)

An interesting question for politics in general not just Sinn Féin. Can a party that affiliated itself with an organisation or multiple organisations like the IRA or PIRA, in the time they did, ever be integrated into legitimate politics to the extent that they could form a govt?

I am asking because we are in a time where realistically the alternatives becoming fewer.

Whilst i do not feel i could ever vote for Sinn féin (i am not just saying it i really could not bring myself to), i can understand why people might.

If they stand for what no other party will stand for and a voter believes that their political aims are the only way to lead the country or that they are the only party to lead the country can a vote for Sinn Féin be justified?

The thing about Sinn Féin now is that they are not going anywhere. You have to deal with them. Infact of all the parties they are not going anywhere. They have Stormont as badly run as it is.

If the politicians in this country, or the citizens for that matter don't want a party with Sinn Féin's history becoming a powerhouse for the working class vote. THEN THEY HAD BETTER REPRESENT THAT VOTE THEMSELVES, before it becomes entirely radicalised.

By the way if you think Sinn Féin have softened you should have seen their Árd dheis!

Interestingly mainstream Irish politicians have in the past become involved in violence in the North lets not kid ourselves. Ever hear of the ARMS CRISIS? True all parties were comitted of gun running , however i do think that kind of funding and activity would be considered unacceptable now. And i am not sure i accept the acquital. Also the Irish Govt's refusal to co-operate with the RUC with over 80 extradition warrants for ver serious offences for 80 dangerous men and women.17 of which were eventually arrested in the uk . These offences range from 'Murder of an RUC officer' to ' Causing an explosion', 'Kiddnapping' 'Malicious wounding' and numerous others . One warrant was for someone who had escaped from custody. And this refusal to act on RUC warrants was acted out by the Irish Govt.

There are suspicions in the North of collusion with the IRA ( i would suspect unfounded) of collusion with the IRA by the GARDA and the Irish govt because of it's refusal to extradite these people.

Back to Sinn Féin , it was clear to me during the presiential campaign that alongside the IRA association there are other behavouirs that make them dishonourable. Producing false allegations that influence a campaign is fraudulent and corrupt.

However how would anyone suggest they be treated? Considering they are apparantly (and corrcet me if i am wrong on this) the second strongest party after FG ?

They are the only party with real ( genuine or not ) socialist ideals. Whether you agree with socialist ideals or not surely the reason that such a party is necessary is so that a legitimate non violent non radical voice exists for that section of society.

The Greek elections left mainstream political parties slaughtered and let in extremists .

People are not going to rally around FG simply to avoid letting Sinn Féin into power. I think it is time politicians realize this and start wakening up to the fact that..erm yeah Sinn Féin are getting a little too powerful we had better start giving people true representation.

They are not going anywhere. So what do we do??

Thoughts?

thecommietommy

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Ok lets NOT get this one locked PLEASE ?:-)

An interesting question for politics in general not just Sinn Féin. Can a party that affiliated itself with an organisation or multiple organisations like the IRA or PIRA, in the time they did, ever be integrated into legitimate politics to the extent that they could form a govt?

I am asking because we are in a time where realistically the alternatives becoming fewer.

Whilst i do not feel i could ever vote for Sinn féin (i am not just saying it i really could not bring myself to), i can understand why people might.

If they stand for what no other party will stand for and a voter believes that their political aims are the only way to lead the country or that they are the only party to lead the country can a vote for Sinn Féin be justified?

The thing about Sinn Féin now is that they are not going anywhere. You have to deal with them. Infact of all the parties they are not going anywhere. They have Stormont as badly run as it is.

If the politicians in this country, or the citizens for that matter don't want a party with Sinn Féin's history becoming a powerhouse for the working class vote. THEN THEY HAD BETTER REPRESENT THAT VOTE THEMSELVES, before it becomes entirely radicalised.

By the way if you think Sinn Féin have softened you should have seen their Árd dheis!

Interestingly mainstream Irish politicians have in the past become involved in violence in the North lets not kid ourselves. Ever hear of the ARMS CRISIS? True all parties were comitted of gun running , however i do think that kind of funding and activity would be considered unacceptable now. And i am not sure i accept the acquital. Also the Irish Govt's refusal to co-operate with the RUC with over 80 extradition warrants for ver serious offences for 80 dangerous men and women.17 of which were eventually arrested in the uk . These offences range from 'Murder of an RUC officer' to ' Causing an explosion', 'Kiddnapping' 'Malicious wounding' and numerous others . One warrant was for someone who had escaped from custody. And this refusal to act on RUC warrants was acted out by the Irish Govt.

There are suspicions in the North of collusion with the IRA ( i would suspect unfounded) of collusion with the IRA by the GARDA and the Irish govt because of it's refusal to extradite these people.

Back to Sinn Féin , it was clear to me during the presiential campaign that alongside the IRA association there are other behavouirs that make them dishonourable. Producing false allegations that influence a campaign is fraudulent and corrupt.

However how would anyone suggest they be treated? Considering they are apparantly (and corrcet me if i am wrong on this) the second strongest party after FG ?

They are the only party with real ( genuine or not ) socialist ideals. Whether you agree with socialist ideals or not surely the reason that such a party is necessary is so that a legitimate non violent non radical voice exists for that section of society.

The Greek elections left mainstream political parties slaughtered and let in extremists .

People are not going to rally around FG simply to avoid letting Sinn Féin into power. I think it is time politicians realize this and start wakening up to the fact that..erm yeah Sinn Féin are getting a little too powerful we had better start giving people true representation.

They are not going anywhere. So what do we do??

Thoughts?

" Can a party that affiliated itself with an organisation or multiple organisations like the IRA or PIRA, in the time they did, ever be integrated into legitimate politics to the extent that they could form a govt? "

I hope the mods don't see this as personal abuse and it's only your 4th post so maybe your naive to political online discussions, but FFS, didn't almost every party in the country affiliate itself with an organisation or multiple organisations like the IRA, Blueshirts etc at some point in it's lifetime. Fine Gael are found of bragging about their Micheal Collins connection as well as others such as Sean McEoin etc, Fianna Fail needs no explaination unless your from China and don't know anything whatsoever about politics, Labour the Irish Citizen army and in more recent times Gilmore, Rabbite, Kathleen Lynch were as associatied with the Workers Party/Offical IRA as Gerry Adams or Dessie Ellis with the PIRA :rolleyes: ( I was a member of the Irish Republican Socilaist Party in my younger days for a time :eek: !!! )

" Producing false allegations that influence a campaign is fraudulent and corrupt. " RTE produced the tweet that brought Fianna Fail bagman Gallagher down, McGuinness only took up what was passed on to him. again I'm asking the mods not to see my post as personal abuse, but clearly your whole posts sounds a sort of alarmist reds have come out from under the beds post. Whatever anyone thinks of SF, clearly "their not going away " - like it or not.

The Workers Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_of_Ireland

Fenian Army

Vótáil Sinn Féin

gaffer91

This will probably turn into yet another flame war but here goes.

My opinion is that for as long as the SF consists of leading members of the PIRA during the troubles they are absolutely unelectable for me. When they eventually, SF must have a complete departure from their shameful history with admission of wrongdoing on their part during the Troubles (whatever about what the Brits or loyalists did) and a halt to commemoration of people like Sean Russell and these kind of people. If they do all that, it would be a massive improvement. I still would be unlikely to vote for them because even though I am not opposed to government role in intervention and regulation of the economy, their brand of far left economics is abhorrent to me.

SF rise will probably continue in working class areas as all parties, but especially Labour lose face in the wake of unpopular spending cuts. However this will eventually taper off as I think (or I hope!) that only so many people can be bought in by rubbish such as Mary Lou on VB saying "the alternative to austerity is jobs".

As for their getting into government, it would be political suicide for the likes of FF, FG or Labour to go in coalition with them for the foreseeable future as it would be so unpopular with their core vote.Also at present, and this is only my own personal observation and I could easily be wrong, SF are still quite transfer toxic as people who don't like them, really don't like them. That is not to say these things will be the same 15 or 20 years down the line.

SF are here to stay it seems but they will hopefully remain on the sideline for another while.

I just hope that this thread does not descend into SF supporters saying two things. One is that the loyalists and Brits were worse than the IRA. Whether that is true or not it is irrelevant in elections in the Republic. SF were still bad.

The second is the line "Sure the rest of the parties are terrible, SF deserve a chance". They don't and they would in every likelihood be much worse.

getzls

No chance, it will get locked soon enough. :cool: Same old will be trotted out.

looksee

In twenty or thirty years time SF will either be generally accepted as heroes, or forgotten. What they did or did not do for or against Ireland will be smudged into something acceptable to the majority of people. Historians will bleat about their version of events but the majority view will be something that has been moulded by what happens politically and economically in the intervening period.

I could not vote for SF, then again (even as a Brit) I would not vote for someone whose only claim to political acumen was loyalist tendencies. These are not good enough reasons for asking people to run the country for me. Justice, democracy, sound economics do not easily flower from bitter and entrenched roots.

My main concern with SF would be the total baselessness of its financial policies. They can say anything they like at the moment, they can make sweeping claims that do not have any foundation in sensible economic policy because they know that they are not yet going to be voted into government and required to fulfil those promises.

They are building up voter enthusiasm to a point where they have a chance of getting into power, then the wilder socialist ideas will evaporate and they will be FF all over again. Any means to an end, the electorate are greedy and stupid, tell them what they want to hear.

FG are not perfect, but they are making small, firm steps towards putting us on a secure footing, and slowly a sense that corruption in public life is not desirable is taking hold. It has a long way to go and it is not as immediate and exciting as some of the somewhat anarchic, somewhat socialist ideas being bandied about by SF. If enough people can continue to see through the hollow promises and vote for slow, boring stability, then there is a chance that we can pull through the mess we are in.

sellman

looksee wrote: »

My main concern with SF would be the total baselessness of its financial policies. They can say anything they like at the moment, they can make sweeping claims that do not have any foundation in sensible economic policy because they know that they are not yet going to be voted into government and required to fulfil those promises.

God help your naivety if you think that parties when voted into government are required to fulfil their promises. FG/Labour told out and out lies to the electorate to get in, they made strong promises to take a particular course of action and then turned around and blatantly did the opposite...

As the OP pointed out there are few alternatives in Irish politics FF/FG/Labour are identical when it comes to the crunch... the only real alternative is Sinn Féin, and the polls serve to highlight their rising popularity. FF/FG/Labour are seen as the Yes men of the EU, and a large chunk of the electorate doesn't like this so they are joining the SF camp, and this is despite many recent media attacks on SF.

d'Oracle

poeticseraphim wrote: »

An interesting question for politics in general not just Sinn Féin. Can a party that affiliated itself with an organisation or multiple organisations like the IRA or PIRA, in the time they did, ever be integrated into legitimate politics to the extent that they could form a govt?

Yes, absolutely. But it won't be with my vote.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

I am asking because we are in a time where realistically the alternatives becoming fewer.

I disagree. You can still vote for everyone you may have voted for before the last election.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

If they stand for what no other party will stand for and a voter believes that their political aims are the only way to lead the country or that they are the only party to lead the country can a vote for Sinn Féin be justified?

I'm not sure they stand for anything, bar reunification, that isn't stood for by other parties.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

However how would anyone suggest they be treated? Considering they are apparantly (and corrcet me if i am wrong on this) the second strongest party after FG ?

They aren't. By any metric apart from peoples opinion and astoundingly fickle polls.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

They are the only party with real ( genuine or not ) socialist ideals. Whether you agree with socialist ideals or not surely the reason that such a party is necessary is so that a legitimate non violent non radical voice exists for that section of society.

I don't think they are. By any measure at all.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

The Greek elections left mainstream political parties slaughtered and let in extremists .

We aren't Greece.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

People are not going to rally around FG simply to avoid letting Sinn Féin into power. I think it is time politicians realize this and start wakening up to the fact that..erm yeah Sinn Féin are getting a little too powerful we had better start giving people true representation.

Pretty sure they will.
I mean previously no matter how buggered the state the bulk just swing from FG to FF.
I don't really believe that the people who make up the bulk of the vote won't vote for SF regardless.

poeticseraphim wrote: »

They are not going anywhere. So what do we do??

What we have always done. You don't like them don't vote for them.
You don't DO anything else.

Hannibal

gaffer91 wrote: »

This will probably turn into yet another flame war but here goes.

My opinion is that for as long as the SF consists of leading members of the PIRA during the troubles they are absolutely unelectable for me. When they eventually, SF must have a complete departure from their shameful history with admission of wrongdoing on their part during the Troubles (whatever about what the Brits or loyalists did) and a halt to commemoration of people like Sean Russell and these kind of people. If they do all that, it would be a massive improvement. I still would be unlikely to vote for them because even though I am not opposed to government role in intervention and regulation of the economy, their brand of far left economics is abhorrent to me.

SF rise will probably continue in working class areas as all parties, but especially Labour lose face in the wake of unpopular spending cuts. However this will eventually taper off as I think (or I hope!) that only so many people can be bought in by rubbish such as Mary Lou on VB saying "the alternative to austerity is jobs".

As for their getting into government, it would be political suicide for the likes of FF, FG or Labour to go in coalition with them for the foreseeable future as it would be so unpopular with their core vote.Also at present, and this is only my own personal observation and I could easily be wrong, SF are still quite transfer toxic as people who don't like them, really don't like them. That is not to say these things will be the same 15 or 20 years down the line.

SF are here to stay it seems but they will hopefully remain on the sideline for another while.

I just hope that this thread does not descend into SF supporters saying two things. One is that the loyalists and Brits were worse than the IRA. Whether that is true or not it is irrelevant in elections in the Republic. SF were still bad.

The second is the line "Sure the rest of the parties are terrible, SF deserve a chance". They don't and they would in every likelihood be much worse.

Many leaders of the IRA never had anything to do with Sinn Féin and took a lot of convincing to engage in the peace process and political vision. Sinn Féin were and are not the IRA simple as that, some members of both groups overlapped no doubt about it and many IRA men joined SF when they saw that war alone could only bring the process so far.

You talk about Sean Russell being commemorated by SF but neglect to mention that Fine Gael still commemorate former IRA leader Michael Collins. Collins personally carried out and ordered the shooting dead of many police and army men in their own beds.

The Troubles was a dirty war on all ends. There was collusion between the British and loyalist death squads like serial killer Mark Haddock for example, who incidently was involved in trying to blow up a pub on Dublin's Pearse Street in 1994 only to be thwarthed while arming the bomb by the brave actions of a door man who lost his life in the incident. The loyalist gang in question were helped in many ends on this including being told precisely where to place the bomb in order to blow out the gable to bring down the upstairs of the pub that was holding 300 people attending a republican function. The thing about this was that the Garda special branch disappeared for the period of time while this particular attack took place.

During the conflict republicans, loyalists and the British state murdered people and no group has emerged with credibility and even our own Gardaí who didn't resort to murder but were engaged in a dirty war.

There was British moles in the IRA like Scapaticci, Donaldson and O'Callaghan while there was countless others planted there.

Nobody should ever underestimate the work done in the north over the last 20 years to bring about peace and the widespread decommissioning of weapons. We are in a process of conflict resolution which has a long way to go.

Sinn Féin whether people like it or not are fully entitled to stand in democratic elections. They are already in government in the north and if current trends continue with the slim chance of this present government being re-elected there is a strong possibility that SF could be a partner in govnerment here within the next few years. This has many people running scared because they feel like it's the genuine working class party that are going to take over.

Dubhlinner

Dotsey wrote: »

Many leaders of the IRA never had anything to do with Sinn Féin and took a lot of convincing to engage in the peace process and political vision. Sinn Féin were and are not the IRA simple as that, some members of both groups overlapped no doubt about it and many IRA men joined SF when they saw that war alone could only bring the process so far.

Sinn Fein and the PIRA collectively made up the Provisional republican movement. they were different wings of the same organisation.

SVI40

Vótáil Sinn Féin

I do wonder then they, and all the other political parties, realise there is no letter v in the Irish alphabet?

Hannibal

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Sinn Fein and the PIRA collectively made up the Provisional republican movement. they were different wings of the same organisation.

They were and are not the same organisation. There was an overlap of members as I said and both had similar end goals but crucially both had different ideals on how to achieve this. There was Sinn Fein members who were never members of the IRA and likewise many IRA men were never SF members and indeed left the IRA over the rise in Sinn Féin influence over senior men in the early 90's which ultimately brought about a peaceful strategy.

getzls

Dotsey wrote: »

They were and are not the same organisation. There was an overlap of members as I said and both had similar end goals but crucially both had different ideals on how to achieve this. There was Sinn Fein members who were never members of the IRA and likewise many IRA men were never SF members and indeed left the IRA over the rise in Sinn Féin influence over senior men in the early 90's which ultimately brought about a peaceful strategy.

So was there only collusion on one side then? Same old stuff being threw about then. Wicked Brits and Loyalists. Easy to accuse collusion, harder to prove. Because S.F say it happened?

gaffer91

Dotsey wrote: »

Many leaders of the IRA never had anything to do with Sinn Féin and took a lot of convincing to engage in the peace process and political vision. Sinn Féin were and are not the IRA simple as that, some members of both groups overlapped no doubt about it and many IRA men joined SF when they saw that war alone could only bring the process so far.

As stated below SF and the IRA were two sides of the same coin. You need to accept this. Even if they weren't- Adams, McGuinness, Ferris and Gerry Kelly for instance were all leading IRA terrorists. Hardly suitable.

Dotsey wrote: »

You talk about Sean Russell being commemorated by SF but neglect to mention that Fine Gael still commemorate former IRA leader Michael Collins. Collins personally carried out and ordered the shooting dead of many police and army men in their own beds.

The IRA had a popular mandate from 1919 to 1921. Equating Collins to Russell is quite frankly ludicrous anyway.

Dotsey wrote: »

The Troubles was a dirty war on all ends. There was collusion between the British and loyalist death squads like serial killer Mark Haddock for example, who incidently was involved in trying to blow up a pub on Dublin's Pearse Street in 1994 only to be thwarthed while arming the bomb by the brave actions of a door man who lost his life in the incident. The loyalist gang in question were helped in many ends on this including being told precisely where to place the bomb in order to blow out the gable to bring down the upstairs of the pub that was holding 300 people attending a republican function. The thing about this was that the Garda special branch disappeared for the period of time while this particular attack took place.

During the conflict republicans, loyalists and the British state murdered people and no group has emerged with credibility and even our own Gardaí who didn't resort to murder but were engaged in a dirty war.

There was British moles in the IRA like Scapaticci, Donaldson and O'Callaghan while there was countless others planted there.

Nobody should ever underestimate the work done in the north over the last 20 years to bring about peace and the widespread decommissioning of weapons. We are in a process of conflict resolution which has a long way to go.

Here we go, dragging the Brits and the loyalists into it FFS. Noone disputes collusion took place or that the loyalist gangs were cold hearted murderers. However, as has been stated 100 times it is irrelevant in the context of the Irish political system in 2012.

Also there would have been no need for conflict resolution were it not for the IRA "war". As stated previously it is tantamount to congratulating a serial killer for stopping.

Dotsey wrote: »

Sinn Féin whether people like it or not are fully entitled to stand in democratic elections. They are already in government in the north and if current trends continue with the slim chance of this present government being re-elected there is a strong possibility that SF could be a partner in govnerment here within the next few years. This has many people running scared because they feel like it's the genuine working class party that are going to take over.

Noone disputes that they are entitled. Read my post the next time.

Hannibal

gaffer91 wrote: »

As stated below SF and the IRA were two sides of the same coin. You need to accept this. Even if they weren't- Adams, McGuinness, Ferris and Gerry Kelly for instance were all leading IRA terrorists. Hardly suitable.

Not one shred of evidence has ever shown Adams to be in the IRA. McGuinness, Ferris and Kelly were once all leading IRA Volunteers everyone knows this, and now they are also all elected politicians with both McGuinness and Kelly now in government in the north.

gaffer91 wrote: »

The IRA had a popular mandate from 1919 to 1921. Equating Collins to Russell is quite frankly ludicrous anyway.

How is it ludicrous? Russell was involved in the Easter Rising serving under McDonagh, he was an IRA director in the Civil War and a leader of the IRA until his death in 1940. He was an Irish patriot and Irish nationalist simple as that.

gaffer91 wrote: »

Here we go, dragging the Brits and the loyalists into it FFS. Noone disputes collusion took place or that the loyalist gangs were cold hearted murderers. However, as has been stated 100 times it is irrelevant in the context of the Irish political system in 2012.

Also there would have been no need for conflict resolution were it not for the IRA "war". As stated previously it is tantamount to congratulating a serial killer for stopping.

If you talk about the IRA then you have to understand what they were fighting against, you can't take one side in a conflict without evaluating the other.

Listening to people like you you would come to the conclusion the IRA just woke up one day and decided to start a campaign in 1969. Catholics and nationalists were being terrorised in an apartheid orange state throughout the 60's by loyalists and British state forces. Understand this and you will then understand how and why the IRA split and engaged a campaign. The IRA were in fact being taunted for not protecting nationalist areas.

When people talk about conflict resolution they talk about all sides facing upto the wrongs of the past to minimise it happening again in the future, it wasn't all republican aggression. You keep refering to "congratulating a serial killer", your understanding of what went on in the north is minimal with idiotic comments like that.

You talk about the loyalists and British being irrelevent in the Irish political system in 2012. The IRA are also irrelevent to the Irish political system in 2012 considering they are on ceasefire 15 years and have decommissioned in that time period and were the first armed group to do this, they have left the stage get over it and accept it.

Loyalists and British are relevent to the Irish political system now in 2012 and into the future considering they occupy the north east corner of the island. Some people in the north want to be British and some want to be Irish we will never get away from this fact and they are both entitled to Irish passports so I reckon this makes them very relevent.

Any Irish passport holder in the north should be brought further into our political system and be allowed vote in presidential elections, and all northern MP's should be allowed speaking rights in the Dáil. They should not be treated like second class citizens of this country just for being born on the opposite side of the border they're as Irish and you and I.

JustinDee

SVI40 wrote: »

I do wonder then they, and all the other political parties, realise there is no letter v in the Irish alphabet?

Another dipso republican fallacy is that there was no such leader known as Padraig Pearse. He was either Patrick Pearse or PH Pearse. Never gaelicised his name.

Scofflaw

Fenian Army wrote: »

Vótáil Sinn Féin

getzls wrote: »

No chance, it will get locked soon enough. :cool: Same old will be trotted out.

SVI40 wrote: »

I do wonder then they, and all the other political parties, realise there is no letter v in the Irish alphabet?

JustinDee wrote: »

Another dipso republican fallacy is that there was no such leader known as Padraig Pearse. He was either Patrick Pearse or PH Pearse. Never gaelicised his name.

None of these posts are helpful or on-topic.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Dubhlinner

Dotsey wrote: »

They were and are not the same organisation. There was an overlap of members as I said and both had similar end goals but crucially both had different ideals on how to achieve this. There was Sinn Fein members who were never members of the IRA and likewise many IRA men were never SF members and indeed left the IRA over the rise in Sinn Féin influence over senior men in the early 90's which ultimately brought about a peaceful strategy.

Thats a recent development. Up until the 1994 ceasefire Sinn Fein cited armed struggle of the PIRA as legitimate and necessary.

In Martin McGuinness own words "We don't believe winning elections and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom of ireland, at the end of the day it will be cutting edge of IRA which will bring freedom"

I think you are seriously underestimating the links between Sinn Fein and the PIRA

Chuck Stone

Dotsey wrote: »

Any Irish passport holder in the north should be brought further into our political system and be allowed vote in presidential elections, and all northern MP's should be allowed speaking rights in the Dáil. They should not be treated like second class citizens of this country just for being born on the opposite side of the border they're as Irish and you and I.

The establishment here will not let that happen any time short of reunification because it would increase the power of SF considerably.

Hannibal

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Thats a recent development. Up until the 1994 ceasefire Sinn Fein cited armed struggle of the PIRA as legitimate and necessary.

In Martin McGuinness own words "We don't believe winning elections and winning any amount of votes will bring freedom of ireland, at the end of the day it will be cutting edge of IRA which will bring freedom"

I think you are seriously underestimating the links between Sinn Fein and the PIRA

SF done this to try keep on all republicans onside. McGuinness made many speeches like this to keep as many IRA smooth.

I'm not underestimating the links because I know the links are there, what I'm saying and have said is that they were both different organisations but with the same fanbase. It's easier for some people to just not bother learning the flips and flops and just label them as one but the differences are there when you look for them. I have spent most of my life around republicans and I can and could see the difference between both. I know many SF who were never and would never have joined the IRA, I also know many IRA who walked away feeling sick after the ceasefires and decommissioning as they hated the way SF took control.

Sinn Féin placed many members in the IRA and courted many senior members in order to have a political based viewpoint on the leadership. The IRA also placed certain military minded members into SF in order to try dilute the political influence of SF so in that sense they infiltrated each other.

Hannibal

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The establishment here will not let that any time short of reunification because it would increase the power of SF considerably.

We know that only too well, but it's something that should be pushed for. It would also help reunification by allowing unionists into the Dáil and showing them Ireland isn't a big green satan

VinLieger

Dotsey wrote: »

We know that only too well, but it's something that should be pushed for. It would also help reunification by allowing unionists into the Dáil and showing them Ireland isn't a big green satan

Fair enough but i dont think reunification is something that needs to be rushed or forced. Right now it shouldnt even be on anyones radar as it would just cause tension and trouble. Neither North or South is ready for it or will be for at least 10-20 years, i personally cant see it happening within 30 years

Lawrence1895

[QUOTE=VinLieger;79022038]Fair enough but i dont think reunification is something that needs to be rushed or forced. Right now it shouldnt even be on anyones radar as it would just cause tension and trouble. Neither North or South is ready for it or will be for at least 10-20 years, i personally cant see it happening within 30 years[/QUOTE]

That's a vital point there. As much as I wish for a united Ireland, it still reminds me of Germany. The countries reunification was a part of the constitution, but everything happened too fast. And there is still that old East vs West thinking in many people's heads, there is still people in the eastern part of Germany, who think, certain things in the former GDR were better.

celtictiger32

here we go again another round of sinn fein bashing:rolleyes:

shock horror, members of sinn fein were in the ira in the past. people called for years for republicans to go down the political path and put down the gun. but yet when they did that, they dont get the same level playing field as other parties, its no wonder dissident groups are formed in the wake of all this anti sinn fein bullsh1t. its laughable all the squeaky clean people here and elsewhere that would dance around every political pole to avoid voting for sinn fein, i even heard a woman on the radio the other day saying she wanted to vote no in the referendum but she didnt want to align herself with sinn fein:rolleyes:. grow up ffs if you dont agree with their political policies fair enough but let them go about their poltical ways as most of you wished them to do for so many years

K-9

celtictiger32 wrote: »

here we go again another round of sinn fein bashing:rolleyes:

shock horror, members of sinn fein were in the ira in the past. people called for years for republicans to go down the political path and put down the gun. but yet when they did that, they dont get the same level playing field as other parties, its no wonder dissident groups are formed in the wake of all this anti sinn fein bullsh1t. its laughable all the squeaky clean people here and elsewhere that would dance around every political pole to avoid voting for sinn fein, i even heard a woman on the radio the other day saying she wanted to vote no in the referendum but she didnt want to align herself with sinn fein:rolleyes:. grow up ffs if you dont agree with their political policies fair enough but let them go about their poltical ways as most of you wished them to do for so many years

Posts like that don't help in having a civil, responsible thread, they just increase the chances of mud slinging. There already has been a mod warning on this giving examples of poor quality posts. This will be the last warning in that regard.

There's a good discussion going on, either post constructively or don't post at all.

celtictiger32

K-9 wrote: »

Posts like that don't help in having a civil, responsible thread, they just increase the chances of mud slinging. There already has been a mod warning on this giving examples of poor quality posts. This will be the last warning in that regard.

There's a good discussion going on, either post constructively or don't post at all.

i was being civil, and how was it a poor quality post because it didnt fall in line with the other anti sinn fein posts.

and as far as im concerned the post was constructive, the topic was about voting for sinn fein with the ira connection in mind. i was outlining that they are a political party and should be treated as a political party.

K-9

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i was being civil, and how was it a poor quality post because it didnt fall in line with the other anti sinn fein posts.

The nonconstructive anti-SF posts were also quoted in the earlier mod warning. Just to make it clear: nonconstructive posts that are either pro or anti-SF will be infracted from now on.

]
and as far as im concerned the post was constructive, the topic was about voting for sinn fein with the ira connection in mind. i was outlining that they are a political party and should be treated as a political party.

here we go again another round of sinn fein bashing

If you think that is constructive especially after a mod warning well I can't really help you on that. There has been a civil, constructive discussion going on, that you chose to ignore those posts and focus on the unhelpful ones, despite a mod warning is what we don't want.

PM me if you've any further queries. Discussing moderation on thread is against the charter.

Laminations

celtictiger32 wrote: »

people called for years for republicans to go down the political path and put down the gun. but yet when they did that, they dont get the same level playing field as other parties, its no wonder dissident groups are formed in the wake of all this anti sinn fein bullsh1t.

Going down the political path involves putting forward a party and policies that are open to criticism. Also open to criticism is the behaviour of party members (what they feel is worth celebrating/who they feel is worth commemorating/the causes they support and the people and acts they refuse to condemn). That's politics- you dont just put down the gun and get unquestioning respect. And threatening us that if respect is not shown then some dissident will pick back up the gun is not really showing commitment to the political path.

Pointing out the economic illiteracy of SF or the conduct of members who see fit to support and collect Garda killers from prison is anti-Sinn Fein in the same way that pointing out FFs epic fails and the conduct of Willie O'Dea and his court appearances is anti-FF or that FGs u-turns on advisor pay and the disappearance of the unpopular Phil Hogan is anti-FG.

You may convince working class areas that your party is all things to all men but until you develop realistic policies* SF won't win over middle class votes

*or populist policies that target the middle classes a la Labour.

thecommietommy

gaffer91 wrote: »

I just hope that this thread does not descend into SF supporters saying two things. One is that the loyalists and Brits were worse than the IRA. Whether that is true or not it is irrelevant in elections in the Republic. SF were still bad.

Wonderful and just about everything that the Gombeen state stands for i.e. I hate the SF because the IRA killed people, but however I consider it irrelevant regardless of what the loyalists and British did either side of the border.

celtictiger32

]Going down the political path involves putting forward a party and policies that are open to criticism. Also open to criticism is the behaviour of party members (what they feel is worth celebrating/who they feel is worth commemorating/the causes they support and the people and acts they refuse to condemn). That's politics- you dont just put down the gun and get unquestioning respect. And threatening us that if respect is not shown then some dissident will pick back up the gun is not really showing commitment to the political path.

if im allowed to reply without vilification i totally agree with your first point of course sinn fein should be open to criticism as any party should, but criticise them for that and not any of the stuff some of their members have been involved in in the past. i dont think anyone has asked for unquestioning respect, as far as im concerned respect is earned and while their policies mightnt allign to yours or the next man they have put themselves in a repectable position in regards to recent election results. as regards the threat you refer to can you please specify who, when and where the threat was made?

Pointing out the economic illiteracy of SF or the conduct of members who see fit to support and collect Garda killers from prison is anti-Sinn Fein in the same way that pointing out FFs epic fails and the conduct of Willie O'Dea and his court appearances is anti-FF or that FGs u-turns on advisor pay and the disappearance of the unpopular Phil Hogan is anti-FG.

havent members of most parties acted in a manner of 'ill judgement' (as per opinion) i only read an article over the weekend where a fg member as looking for the temporary release of a major drug dealer. but it tends to recieve a lot more bad press when it has a sinn fein connection.

may i just add, i have voted for sinn fein many times in the past and yes i probably am biased in that sense. while they have recieved my vote i do not agree with some of their policies. any of the posts i have posted in this thread
have not been posted with confrontational intent and apologies if they come across that way

purplepanda

SF becoming a government in a democratic state that they refused to acknowledge until recently, boycotted & called a British "puppet" for decades while their "military" wing carried out murder & mayhem, a cartel stil run from one side of the border in effect.

Then SF party supporters call for Irish passport holders in Northern Ireland to be given the vote whilst their neighbours are excluded ? What about parity of esteem? :rolleyes: More like a proposal to increase their vote! :rolleyes:

They appear to be nothing but opportunists & chancers, perhaps if they became the ruling government in Northern Ireland & proved their credientials across the whole community they would deserve a chance but not until then.

As for their loony left polices LOL

Hannibal

purplepanda wrote: »

SF becoming a government in a democratic state that they refused to acknowledge until recently, boycotted & called a British "puppet" for decades while their "military" wing carried out murder & mayhem, a cartel stil run from one side of the border in effect.

Then SF party supporters call for Irish passport holders in Northern Ireland to be given the vote whilst their neighbours are excluded ? What about parity of esteem? :rolleyes: More like a proposal to increase their vote! :rolleyes:

They appear to be nothing but opportunists & chancers, perhaps if they became the ruling government in Northern Ireland & proved their credientials across the whole community they would deserve a chance but not until then.

As for their loony left polices LOL

You do know that everyone born in the North is entitled to an Irish passport under the GFA? It's about including people from the North in as much as possible plus SF have proposals for allowing seats and full speaking rights to all elected MP's from the North.

More and more young protestants are taking Irish passports in the North as it allows them cheaper education across in England and Scotland.

JustinDee

Dotsey wrote: »

More and more young protestants are taking Irish passports in the North as it allows them cheaper education across in England and Scotland.

???
How exactly?

Richard

JustinDee wrote: »

???
How exactly?

In Scotland, not England.

In Scotland, Scottish students don't pay fees, but those from England, Wales and Northern Ireland do. Under EU law, other EU students must be treated the same as local Scottish students. There is a loophole, however, that those students from elsewhere in the UK are entitled to free tuition in Scotland if they have a (non-British) EU passport.

So some NI students are getting Irish passports to qualify. It's a loophole, however, not some awakening of latent Irish nationalism.


In terms of Sinn Fein, I will certainly never vote for them, but it is much better that they have made the transition to democratic politics and that people vote for them, rather than they feel marginalised and go back to "war".

COYW

Dotsey wrote: »

They are already in government in the north and if current trends continue with the slim chance of this present government being re-elected there is a strong possibility that SF could be a partner in govnerment here within the next few years.

Do you really believe that? SF are making gains in lower working class areas but they need to capture votes from the middle classes, if they want to move to the next level in politics down here. Those in the middle classes will not buy into the tabloid style brand of politics promoted by SF at the moment. The likes of that stunt they pulled that day before the referendum, does absolutely nothing positive for the perception of the party in the eyes of middle and upper class people.

Following on from that, the established parties will not go into power with SF, as is. It would alienate a sector of their core vote. No mainstream party is going to risk that.

Laminations

Dotsey wrote: »

You do know that everyone born in the North is entitled to an Irish passport under the GFA? It's about including people from the North in as much as possible plus SF have proposals for allowing seats and full speaking rights to all elected MP's from the North.

More and more young protestants are taking Irish passports in the North as it allows them cheaper education across in England and Scotland.

Giving unionists Irish passports in an attempt to include them in Irish politics will probably work as well as republicans inclusion in British politics- where they refuse to take their seats at Westminster. Hocking them Irish passports will not dilute their sense of britishness or their will to stay in the union.

Your proposal is daft and a plain attempt to boost SFs vote by allowing republicans in the north vote. Why not all Irish passport holders in the whole of Britain rather than this one part? Why not smerican holders of Irish passports? You vote in the country that the policies will effect and where the budget is spent. Northern Ireland's policies and budget is dictated by Westminster and Stormont. Don't try and engage in the biggest case of gerrymandering ever

Laminations

celtictiger32 wrote: »

if im allowed to reply without vilification i totally agree with your first point of course sinn fein should be open to criticism as any party should, but criticise them for that and not any of the stuff some of their members have been involved in in the past. i dont think anyone has asked for unquestioning respect, as far as im concerned respect is earned and while their policies mightnt allign to yours or the next man they have put themselves in a repectable position in regards to recent election results. as regards the threat you refer to can you please specify who, when and where the threat was made?

You can't have it like that.

Criticism of party- acceptable
Criticism of policies -acceptable
Criticism of party members - not acceptable (because they have all this baggage that you want us to forget because of the GFA.

Simple. If you don't want to be pulled up on your links with PIRA then clean house. No one criticises Pearse Doherty or Mary Lou on their shady past because they are new blood. SF needs new blood just like FF needs new blood. Will that make me like them? Probably not (for the reasons I've given in the many FF renewal threads).

As for respect. Election does not bring with it respect. I don't respect Lowry, I never respected Jackie Healy-Rae, Cooper-Flynn, Bertie. To demand respect just because you are polling well with the working class is a bit premature. You get respect from your record, conduct and policies. While I disagree with a lot of what Pearse Doherty says I think he is a good politician, he is about all I respect in SF.

Laminations

Richard wrote: »

In terms of Sinn Fein, I will certainly never vote for them, but it is much better that they have made the transition to democratic politics and that people vote for them, rather than they feel marginalised and go back to "war".

I agree. But entering politics is a double edged sword. It allows people vote for you and allows people ignore you /ridicule you. Just as you enter politics so too can you exit. The PDs were destroyed. We should be allowed contemplate and even suggest the destruction of SF (i.e. ignoring them out of existence) without the threat of a return to 'war'. I'd like to see SF either seriously reform or be replaced with another socialist left party (the nationalism they can take with them)

Looney left policies, well said

celtictiger32

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and i get a warning!!! :rolleyes:

thecommietommy

Laminations wrote: »

Giving unionists Irish passports in an attempt to include them in Irish politics will probably work as well as republicans inclusion in British politics- where they refuse to take their seats at Westminster. Hocking them Irish passports will not dilute their sense of britishness or their will to stay in the union.

Your proposal is daft and a plain attempt to boost SFs vote by allowing republicans in the north vote. Why not all Irish passport holders in the whole of Britain rather than this one part? Why not smerican holders of Irish passports? You vote in the country that the policies will effect and where the budget is spent. Northern Ireland's policies and budget is dictated by Westminster and Stormont. Don't try and engage in the biggest case of gerrymandering ever

Far from been daft, most countries provides for a system for citizens currently residing or working outside of the state to vote in an election. Not sure of the system whether it's casting your vote by post or at your embassy, but it does exist. I'm sure it would be a relatively easy process to arrange in the 6 north eastern counties just across the border, voting booths could be in GAA halls etc. And if the unionists want or don't want to participate, well that could be their choice, that's democracy !!!

Here's how the Americans do it -http://travel.state.gov/travel/living/overseas_voting/overseas_voting_4754.html

Nodin

Laminations wrote: »

Giving unionists Irish passports in an attempt to include them in Irish politics will probably work as well as republicans inclusion in British politics- where they refuse to take their seats at Westminster. Hocking them Irish passports will not dilute their sense of britishness or their will to stay in the union.

Your proposal is daft and a plain attempt to boost SFs vote by allowing republicans in the north vote. Why not all Irish passport holders in the whole of Britain rather than this one part? Why not smerican holders of Irish passports? You vote in the country that the policies will effect and where the budget is spent. Northern Ireland's policies and budget is dictated by Westminster and Stormont. Don't try and engage in the biggest case of gerrymandering ever

It's not a "proposal". Everyone in the North is entitled to an Irish passport.

thecommietommy

purplepanda wrote: »

As for their loony left polices LOL

RVP 11 wrote: »

Looney left policies, well said

So SF ( and the ULA ) should be more like FG/Labour/FF ? Do you know the country is bankrupt ?

FG/Labour are in just implementiing FF looney polices anyway i.e. paying the bond holders regardless, appointing all their cronies to positions of high office in the civil service and judicary and breaking pay caps, clearing the way for bank bosses to give themselves pay rises, practically no reform of quangos, dragging their feet with closing of tax breaks for the super rich. i suppose.

FG/Labour were lambasting FF/GP/PDs for not doing enough about issues, that when they acted resulted in overheating of the economy. And the LP's paymaster, and bearded elders were tied at the hip to Bertie all the way through this debacle.

Obviously looney policies are A Ok with you.

Laminations

thecommietommy wrote: »

Far from been daft, most countries provides for a system for citizens currently residing or working outside of the state to vote in an election. Not sure of the system whether it's casting your vote by post or at your embassy, but it does exist. I'm sure it would be a relatively easy process to arrange in the 6 north eastern counties just across the border, voting booths could be in GAA halls etc. And if the unionists want or don't want to participate, well that could be their choice, that's democracy !!!

Here's how the Americans do it -http://travel.state.gov/travel/living/overseas_voting/overseas_voting_4754.html

His proposal wasn't to allow all ex-pat Irish passport holders a right to vote in Irish elections - it was to specifically allow Irish passport holders in Northern Ireland this right. Citing rights of American overseas voters would only be relevant if their policy applied only to Americans in Canada and nowhere else.

Allowing all Irish passport holders a right to vote here regardless of where they reside is a different argument - one which Dotsey was not making

Laminations

Nodin wrote: »

It's not a "proposal". Everyone in the North is entitled to an Irish passport.

??
see above

His proposal was affording Northern Ireland residents the right to vote here because they hold Irish passports. Unless you apply this to all Irish passport holders it is a proposal aimed at favouring SF.

Dotsey wrote: »

Any Irish passport holder in the north should be brought further into our political system and be allowed vote in presidential elections, and all northern MP's should be allowed speaking rights in the Dáil. They should not be treated like second class citizens of this country just for being born on the opposite side of the border they're as Irish and you and I.

THAT is a proposal, and a daft one at that

Fenian Army

Its not SFs fault that all the other parties abandoned the north is it?

Laminations

Fenian Army wrote: »

Its not SFs fault that all the other parties abandoned the north is it?

?
It was agreed in the Anglo-Irish Treaty, voted for in the Dail and put to referendum where it passed. It was also accepted in the GFA that 'the majority of people in the North wished to remain as part of the United Kingdom, and that Northern Ireland's present and continuing status as part of the United Kingdom was a reflection of that wish'

You may feel aborted but until it changes, Northern Ireland is UK, same as London is UK. I hope it will change and know over time it will change. But until then, allowing Irish passport holders there the right to vote here (while not allowing them in London or anywhere else) is an opportunistic proposal by SF supporters

FTA69

JustinDee wrote: »

Another dipso republican fallacy is that there was no such leader known as Padraig Pearse. He was either Patrick Pearse or PH Pearse. Never gaelicised his name.

Considering he was editor of an Irish language publication and principal of a school in which the Irish language featured heavily, he did in fact use the Irish version of his name on a regular basis.

Hannibal

Laminations wrote: »

??
see above

His proposal was affording Northern Ireland residents the right to vote here because they hold Irish passports. Unless you apply this to all Irish passport holders it is a proposal aimed at favouring SF.

THAT is a proposal, and a daft one at that

Daft because you say it's daft. It's not about whether it favours Sinn Féin or not, it favours IRISH CITIZENS which is more important. It's upto the other parties to try then to engage people over the border

The bit I bolded is daft, becuase you're agreeing with what I was saying while contradicting yourself in the previous sentence.

Gerry Adams 21/04/2012

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams TD has urged the Irish government to look closely at the electoral rules governing the French presidential election which begins today.
Teachta Adams said:
“Irish passport holders among the diaspora and citizens in the north should have the right to vote in Irish Presidential elections. This must be a priority issue for the constitutional convention.”
Teachta Adams pointed out that today: “Almost one million French citizens living abroad and in its overseas territories have the right to vote in the French presidential election.
“The Irish government has committed to discussing voting rights for emigrants in Presidential elections in the constitutional convention.”
The Sinn Féin leader said: “Sinn Féin has been consistantly pressing the Irish government on voting rights for the diaspora and for citizens in the north in recent years.
“I have raised this matter on a number of occasions directly with the Taoiseach in the Dáil and in our recent conversations on the constitutional convention.
“Specifically in our recent submission to the Irish government on the constitutional convention Sinn Féin has called for it to have a mandate that will allow it to discuss ‘the extension of voting rights for northern citizens and citizens in the diaspora’.”

JustinDee

FTA69 wrote: »

Considering he was editor of an Irish language publication and principal of a school in which the Irish language featured heavily, he did in fact use the Irish version of his name on a regular basis.

Never once. Not ever.
'Patrick' or 'PH'.

Sorry mods. I didn't bring it up again.

junder

Dotsey wrote: »

Laminations wrote: »

??
see above

His proposal was affording Northern Ireland residents the right to vote here because they hold Irish passports. Unless you apply this to all Irish passport holders it is a proposal aimed at favouring SF.

THAT is a proposal, and a daft one at that

Daft because you say it's daft. It's not about whether it favours Sinn Féin or not, it favours IRISH CITIZENS which is more important. It's upto the other parties to try then to engage people over the border

The bit I bolded is daft, becuase you're agreeing with what I was saying while contradicting yourself in the previous sentence.

Gerry Adams 21/04/2012

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams TD has urged the Irish government to look closely at the electoral rules governing the French presidential election which begins today.
Teachta Adams said:
“Irish passport holders among the diaspora and citizens in the north should have the right to vote in Irish Presidential elections. This must be a priority issue for the constitutional convention.”
Teachta Adams pointed out that today: “Almost one million French citizens living abroad and in its overseas territories have the right to vote in the French presidential election.
“The Irish government has committed to discussing voting rights for emigrants in Presidential elections in the constitutional convention.”
The Sinn Féin leader said: “Sinn Féin has been consistantly pressing the Irish government on voting rights for the diaspora and for citizens in the north in recent years.
“I have raised this matter on a number of occasions directly with the Taoiseach in the Dáil and in our recent conversations on the constitutional convention.
“Specifically in our recent submission to the Irish government on the constitutional convention Sinn Féin has called for it to have a mandate that will allow it to discuss ‘the extension of voting rights for northern citizens and citizens in the diaspora’.”

In terms of northern Ireland, how does in benefit irish passport holders, the irish president has no jurisdiction In northern Ireland so it makes not a jot of difference to their life's, only group that stands to benefit is sinn fein who would finally have a chance at the symbolic job of president