What's your definition of democracy?

The other thing the parliament would be is representative, not in the sense of elected representatives - who, as we can see, are from very few classes, backgrounds, or jobs - but representative of the country. It would be fifty percent male, and fifty percent female. The age demographic would be the same as the country - at least, over the age of majority, the private sector would be sixty percent - compared with zero percent now - , fourteen percent would come into parliament having been unemployed, ten percent would be either of immigrant descent, or immigrants themselves; we would have engineers, not just schoolteachers, lawyers, publicans and professional politicos.

From that, a better parliament and cabinet could be fashioned.

later12 wrote: »

A lot of people are missing the point. They are debating whether or not greater democracy is desirable -- but not examining the extent of our current 'democracy'.

Debate whether Ireland is democratic enough, or too democratic by all means. But please lets not try to promote the pretty ridiculous notion that increasing participation or holding more plebiscites would be anything less than increasingly democratic.

I find that referenda on a lot of stuff doesn't work. American States do it all the time and it serves to merely hamper the work of their state congress. The selected parliament, on the other hand, would consist of people expected to spend a year learning about government, or they would forgo any pension. There could be a stick too, failure to take the job seriously could result in a fine.

later12 wrote: »

How selfish of the people, obstructing the work of the administration!

I understand some people's concern here; but that's really a question of whether democracy is totally desirable. Not whether the above is democratic.

In my experience, aversion to increased democracy tends to be put forward by those who find that their opinions are not commonly shared amongst the public.

I can understand that sometimes - occasionally there is evidence to suggest that parliaments (not least the Irish parliament) are more "progressive" than the public they serve. But is that actually acceptable? Is there an inherent right for a parliament to institutionalise a system or make legislative provisions that are out of kilter with what most people want? Who gets to decide what these provisions might be, or how far they go?

Parliaments are more progressive, in fact I think were it not for our constitutional ability to force referenda, we would have abortion now. In fact, since the eighties. Thats not my main point against referenda, or "initiatives" as they are called in the US.

What happens is this, someone puts a initiative stopping the state parliaments from raising property taxes. Who would vote against that? Next year, income tax cant be raised without a sixty percent majority. Who would vote against that? Next year, the teachers union, whose members are losing ground as their pay is not keeping up with inflation, force an an initiative where teachers have to at least get a raise per year to compensate for inflation. Who would vote against that? The fire fighters jump in, and sponsor an an initiative to make sure that - since the death of fire fighter bob last year - the fire fighters never again have to fight a fire without the best of equipment. Who would vote against that?

You end up with a pariliemnt unable to govern, to raise taxes, create deficits, or cut the salaries of the public workers who can manage to get initiatives passed in time before the recession.

The result is chaos.

On the other hand a selected parliament would be cognisant, in their year, of the results of each action, as they would get speeches from the cabinet, or finance minster - we can's afford teacher rises every year because...,; and because that parliament are the ones responsible, with direct democracy nobody really is.

I would make the selected parliament the upper house, rather than remove the Senate, and give it the same power for now, to see how it works.