Was Mary an unmarried teenage mother?

juan.kerr · 31-05-2012 06:49PM #1

I was told on another boards forum that she was an unmarried teenage mother. The poster said it was well known 'fact'.

I've mentioned it to a couple of people (including my mother) who didn't believe me, so perhaps someone here can confirm or otherwise?

And before anyone says it, I'm not trolling.

CajunPenguin · 31-05-2012 06:52PM

Yes, she was. It says in the bible. Not going to find a direct quote but she was engaged and even if we weren't told, we know she would have been about 16 because of customs at the time.Why does it matter?

juan.kerr · 31-05-2012 06:56PM

Thanks. It doesn't really, but I thought it strange that I didn't know this.

Whether that is because I didn't pay attention or it was glossed over in my religious education I don't know.

Sonics2k · 31-05-2012 07:02PM

CajunPenguin wrote: »

Yes, she was. It says in the bible. Not going to find a direct quote but she was engaged and even if we weren't told, we know she would have been about 16 because of customs at the time.Why does it matter?

She most likely would of been approximately 14, possibly younger.

But yes OP, she was -technically- an unwed teenage mother.

newmug · 31-05-2012 07:10PM

What do you mean "glossed over"? Are you not Catholic? Us Catholics make a big deal of the fact that she was indeed an unmarried teenage mother. Not only that, but she was a virgin, and it was the Holy Spirit who got her pregnant.

Getting married (and hence pregnant) as a teenager was the norm, even nowadays some travellers still get married around 16 or so. Back then, she was engaged to Joseph. An angel appeared to him and told him Mary was preg. He was going to do a runner, but the angel told him not to. Mary was also visited by an angel, who said "behold the handmaid of the Lord" and Mary replied with the famous words "Be it done unto me according to thy word". This is a very well known part of Christianity, especially to Catholics.

martinedwards · 31-05-2012 08:01PM

newmug wrote: »

What do you mean "glossed over"? Are you not Catholic? Us Catholics make a big deal of the fact that she was indeed an unmarried teenage mother. Not only that, but she was a virgin, and it was the Holy Spirit who got her pregnant.

may I add that us prods do too!!

we may differ later on in her life over whether she STAYED a virgin or not, but not on the teenage unmarried mother bit.

Jesus was pretty much from the scummiest background possible.

unmarried mother, asylum seeker, imigrant, living under an army of occupation....

didn't have a lot going for him (in earthly terms obviously!!)

newmug · 31-05-2012 08:17PM

martinedwards wrote: »

may I add that us prods do too!!

we may differ later on in her life over whether she STAYED a virgin or not, but not on the teenage unmarried mother bit.

Jesus was pretty much from the scummiest background possible.

unmarried mother, asylum seeker, imigrant, living under an army of occupation....

didn't have a lot going for him (in earthly terms obviously!!)

EXACTLY! And thats the beauty of it all. The Jews were expecting this big fanfare with the arrival of a king, but God chose the humblest, least triumphalist way to arrive, live, and die here on Earth. He wasn't even born in a house, he was born in a shed! And murdered! By cruel and unusual punishment!

Cosmo K · 31-05-2012 08:21PM

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

Sonics2k · 31-05-2012 08:25PM

newmug wrote: »

EXACTLY! And thats the beauty of it all. The Jews were expecting this big fanfare with the arrival of a king, but God chose the humblest, least triumphalist way to arrive, live, and die here on Earth. He wasn't even born in a house, he was born in a shed! And murdered! By cruel and unusual punishment!

To be fair, hardly an uncommon (birth) life and death in those days.

Chucken · 31-05-2012 08:29PM

Cosmo K wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

True
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/crucify.html

georgieporgy · 31-05-2012 08:39PM

it was my understanding that Mary was betrothed to Joseph and both had agreed to live a life of continence (which they did). So they were married when Mary gave birth so she then was not an unmarried teenage mum.

F12 · 31-05-2012 10:38PM

georgieporgy wrote: »

it was my understanding that Mary was betrothed to Joseph and both had agreed to live a life of continence (which they did). So they were married when Mary gave birth so she then was not an unmarried teenage mum.

I don't recall the bible making any mention of when Mary and Joseph were married, so how can anyone say for sure that she was definitely not unmarried a the time of Jesus' birth?
To be fully married would also involve consummation (and this is even the rule under RC marriage laws even today) so if she was pregnant with another's child, then they would hardly have sex before the birth. Even is they did so, the RCC insists that Mary was always and ever a virgin, therefore having an intact hymen, even after she had Jesus and after sex with Joseph. It's at the core of the belief system.

gimmebroadband · 01-06-2012 12:06AM

It looks to me that Mary was married before the Birth of Christ!
Matt 1:18

Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

PDN · 01-06-2012 09:32AM

Part of the problem here is that we project our western 21st Century concepts of marriage into 1st Century Palestine.

We live in a culture where marriage is a clearly defined act at a precise point in time. At any moment prior to the point where the celebrant says, "I now pronounce you man and wife" then you are unmarried, but after that point you are married. Our religious and civic hierarchies work hand in glove to make sure that this works neatly and in time for the photographs to be taken and then for grandad to get embarrassingly drunk at the reception.

But, even today, in many societies that is not the case. For example, in many parts of Africa it is common to hold a traditional wedding with the families concerned, then afterwards may come a civil ceremony before a magistrate, and then at a later date there is a wedding ceremony in a church. It is not unusual to hear couples who are in this process alternate between referring to their partner as fiance or spouse.

The most we can say about Mary and Joseph is that they were somewhere in the process between betrothal (which could happen at a very young age and several years before actual marriage) and full sexual consummation. And, while they were in this process, it would be common to refer to someone as your husband. Also, if a dowry had already been paid and a contract made between their families, then a divorce may well have been necessary to void the marriage - even though the marriage was not yet complete or consummated.

We don't know how old Mary was - but it is often assumed that she was a teenager as girls often married young in those days.

martinedwards · 01-06-2012 10:26AM

F12 wrote: »

the RCC insists that Mary was always and ever a virgin, therefore having an intact hymen, even after she had Jesus and after sex with Joseph. It's at the core of the belief system.

see THAT is the bit we prods have difficulty wrapping our heads round.

as far as I (as a prod) understand it, Jesus, virgin birth, miraculous.

after that, in a Jesus centred faith, Mary's role is as a mother. whether she remained a virgin, shaved off her eyebrows or learned to ride unicycle is irrelivent after the birth of jesus.

I KNOW that The RC church have other ideas, and I'm happy that you do, I UNDERSTAND the asking Mary to pray for you.....

if I was sick I'd ask a living friend to pray for me.

I believe that Mary is in Heaven alive in the very presence of God.

therefore to ask her to "put in a word for me" isn't an issue. I UNDERSTAND that, but I don't DO that as I believe that as a part of the priesthood of all believers I can get the same level of access as I'm adopted as a son of God myself (says so in the Bible y'know!!)

I'm not getting down on you about Marian doctrines, I just don't follow them myself!

newmug · 01-06-2012 05:47PM

Cosmo K wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

Sonics2k wrote: »

To be fair, hardly an uncommon (birth) life and death in those days.

WHAT???:eek::eek::eek: It wasn't unusual to nail someone to a cross? I'm sorry, but it very much was! Crucifition was a fairly new invention by the romans, as the person didnt die straight away, the hung there alive and in agony. It was a powerful psychological weapon against the natives of whatever country they invaded, dont mess with these boys or you'll end up crucified. Jesus's case was worse due to the nailing instead of being tied with ropes. The usual form of execution was beheading or being thrown to animals.

newmug · 01-06-2012 05:50PM

martinedwards wrote: »

see THAT is the bit we prods have difficulty wrapping our heads round.

as far as I (as a prod) understand it, Jesus, virgin birth, miraculous.

after that, in a Jesus centred faith, Mary's role is as a mother. whether she remained a virgin, shaved off her eyebrows or learned to ride unicycle is irrelivent after the birth of jesus.

I KNOW that The RC church have other ideas, and I'm happy that you do, I UNDERSTAND the asking Mary to pray for you.....

if I was sick I'd ask a living friend to pray for me.

I believe that Mary is in Heaven alive in the very presence of God.

therefore to ask her to "put in a word for me" isn't an issue. I UNDERSTAND that, but I don't DO that as I believe that as a part of the priesthood of all believers I can get the same level of access as I'm adopted as a son of God myself (says so in the Bible y'know!!)

I'm not getting down on you about Marian doctrines, I just don't follow them myself!

Good common-sense post there Martin. As for the hymen being intact etc., the point of the whole "virgin" thing is she never had sex, therefore she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, therefore making Jesus free of original sin.

ceegee · 01-06-2012 05:53PM

newmug wrote: »

Cosmo K wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

Sonics2k wrote: »

To be fair, hardly an uncommon (birth) life and death in those days.

WHAT???:eek::eek::eek: It wasn't unusual to nail someone to a cross? I'm sorry, but it very much was! Crucifition was a fairly new invention by the romans, as the person didnt die straight away, the hung there alive and in agony. It was a powerful psychological weapon against the natives of whatever country they invaded, dont mess with these boys or you'll end up crucified. Jesus's case was worse due to the nailing instead of being tied with ropes. The usual form of execution was beheading or being thrown to animals.

Well there was at least another 2 on the same day, on the same hill so not exactly unheard of

Ash.J.Williams · 01-06-2012 05:56PM

It was most definitely not an imacculate conception, I'm 100% sure about that.

newmug · 01-06-2012 05:57PM

ceegee wrote: »

Well there was at least another 2 on the same day, on the same hill so not exactly unheard of

True. But no-one said it was unheard of, just that it was cruel and unusual. Which it was.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It was most definitely not an imacculate conception, I'm 100% sure about that.

Go on:rolleyes:

Doc Farrell · 01-06-2012 06:13PM

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It was most definitely not an imacculate conception, I'm 100% sure about that.

This should be good. Go on.

wolfsbane · 01-06-2012 06:33PM

Unmarried mother? Depends on how you define 'mother'. She was certainly an unmarried pregnant woman.

But if one defines 'mother' as one having given birth, then Mary was not an unmarried mother - Joseph took her in marriage before Jesus was born:
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”...
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Mary did not have sex before Jesus was born. Her hymen was intact until the birth. Afterwards she and Joseph behaved as a good husband and wife should, sharing sexual love. Jesus' brothers and sisters grew up with Him.

*******************************************************************
Matthew 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”

Sonics2k · 01-06-2012 07:58PM

newmug wrote: »

WHAT???:eek::eek::eek: It wasn't unusual to nail someone to a cross? I'm sorry, but it very much was! Crucifition was a fairly new invention by the romans, as the person didnt die straight away, the hung there alive and in agony. It was a powerful psychological weapon against the natives of whatever country they invaded, dont mess with these boys or you'll end up crucified. Jesus's case was worse due to the nailing instead of being tied with ropes. The usual form of execution was beheading or being thrown to animals.

Eh? For one, Crucifixion was a Jewish invention (though it was also used by the Persians, Greeks, Macedonians and more long before Rome), and it was used very commonly across the empire for acts of treason.

The best example would be when some 5000 slaves were crucified for attempting a rebellion.

But yes, his death was quite common for those who had committed what was considered an act of treason or rebellion against the Roman empire, and crucifixion was saved for such a crime.

Adamas · 02-06-2012 06:59PM

wolfsbane wrote: »

Unmarried mother? Depends on how you define 'mother'. She was certainly an unmarried pregnant woman.

But if one defines 'mother' as one having given birth, then Mary was not an unmarried mother - Joseph took her in marriage before Jesus was born:
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”...
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.

Mary did not have sex before Jesus was born. Her hymen was intact until the birth. Afterwards she and Joseph behaved as a good husband and wife should, sharing sexual love. Jesus' brothers and sisters grew up with Him.

*******************************************************************
Matthew 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”

Ookay then...so when did her hymen regenerate, in accordance with the perpetual virginity of Mary which is at the core of RC teaching? After she had Jesus and the other children, or after Joseph had sex with her for the last time? Or did it keep on regrowing after each sexual act?

Adamas · 02-06-2012 07:07PM

Doc Farrell wrote: »

This should be good. Go on.

It should be. The so-called 'immaculate conception' refers to the conception of Mary by her mother, Anne, and is yet a different belief than the one about Jesus being born of a virgin. link

Doc Farrell · 02-06-2012 08:12PM

Very good Adam and as you have kindly provided a link regarding the catholic doctrine about the perpetual virginity of Mary it would seem that you are quite a whizz on the Internet. So finding the answers to the questions that you ask shouldn't be too much trouble for you.

Edit: my reply was in regards to the other post which was, probably wisely, cut. So feel free to chop chop this one too.

georgieporgy · 02-06-2012 08:48PM

As for all the other children Mary and Joseph were supposed to have had, what did they do with them when they went to Jerusalem when Jesus was aged 12?

Did they leave them at home because they weren't so special? If they were too young to travel does that mean the Holy Family practiced contraception occasionally?

PDN · 02-06-2012 08:50PM

Can we keep on topic rather than having a sectarian squabble please? Feel free to discuss whether Mary was an unmarried teenage mother.

philologos · 02-06-2012 09:14PM

OP: The New Testament accounts don't offer us anything on Mary's age, but yes probably she was.

georgieporgy · 02-06-2012 09:27PM

philologos wrote: »

OP: The New Testament accounts don't offer us anything on Mary's age, but yes probably she was.

but if they weren't married why did Joseph take her with him to the Census in Jerusalem?

philologos · 02-06-2012 09:35PM

georgieporgy wrote: »

but if they weren't married why did Joseph take her with him to the Census in Jerusalem?

Matthew 1:18-19 wrote:

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

Luke 1:26-27 wrote:

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.

Luke 2:4-5 wrote:

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.

These passages should help. I'm wary of assuming things other than what are told Scripturally on the subject.

Was Mary an unmarried teenage mother?

Comments