Was Mary an unmarried teenage mother?

juan.kerr

I was told on another boards forum that she was an unmarried teenage mother. The poster said it was well known 'fact'.

I've mentioned it to a couple of people (including my mother) who didn't believe me, so perhaps someone here can confirm or otherwise?

And before anyone says it, I'm not trolling.

CajunPenguin

Yes, she was. It says in the bible. Not going to find a direct quote but she was engaged and even if we weren't told, we know she would have been about 16 because of customs at the time.Why does it matter?

juan.kerr

Thanks. It doesn't really, but I thought it strange that I didn't know this.

Whether that is because I didn't pay attention or it was glossed over in my religious education I don't know.

Sonics2k

CajunPenguin wrote: »

Yes, she was. It says in the bible. Not going to find a direct quote but she was engaged and even if we weren't told, we know she would have been about 16 because of customs at the time.Why does it matter?

She most likely would of been approximately 14, possibly younger.

But yes OP, she was -technically- an unwed teenage mother.

newmug

What do you mean "glossed over"? Are you not Catholic? Us Catholics make a big deal of the fact that she was indeed an unmarried teenage mother. Not only that, but she was a virgin, and it was the Holy Spirit who got her pregnant.

Getting married (and hence pregnant) as a teenager was the norm, even nowadays some travellers still get married around 16 or so. Back then, she was engaged to Joseph. An angel appeared to him and told him Mary was preg. He was going to do a runner, but the angel told him not to. Mary was also visited by an angel, who said "behold the handmaid of the Lord" and Mary replied with the famous words "Be it done unto me according to thy word". This is a very well known part of Christianity, especially to Catholics.

martinedwards

newmug wrote: »

What do you mean "glossed over"? Are you not Catholic? Us Catholics make a big deal of the fact that she was indeed an unmarried teenage mother. Not only that, but she was a virgin, and it was the Holy Spirit who got her pregnant.

may I add that us prods do too!!

we may differ later on in her life over whether she STAYED a virgin or not, but not on the teenage unmarried mother bit.

Jesus was pretty much from the scummiest background possible.

unmarried mother, asylum seeker, imigrant, living under an army of occupation....

didn't have a lot going for him (in earthly terms obviously!!)

newmug

martinedwards wrote: »

may I add that us prods do too!!

we may differ later on in her life over whether she STAYED a virgin or not, but not on the teenage unmarried mother bit.

Jesus was pretty much from the scummiest background possible.

unmarried mother, asylum seeker, imigrant, living under an army of occupation....

didn't have a lot going for him (in earthly terms obviously!!)

EXACTLY! And thats the beauty of it all. The Jews were expecting this big fanfare with the arrival of a king, but God chose the humblest, least triumphalist way to arrive, live, and die here on Earth. He wasn't even born in a house, he was born in a shed! And murdered! By cruel and unusual punishment!

Cosmo K

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

Sonics2k

newmug wrote: »

EXACTLY! And thats the beauty of it all. The Jews were expecting this big fanfare with the arrival of a king, but God chose the humblest, least triumphalist way to arrive, live, and die here on Earth. He wasn't even born in a house, he was born in a shed! And murdered! By cruel and unusual punishment!

To be fair, hardly an uncommon (birth) life and death in those days.

Chucken

Cosmo K wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

True
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/crucify.html

georgieporgy

it was my understanding that Mary was betrothed to Joseph and both had agreed to live a life of continence (which they did). So they were married when Mary gave birth so she then was not an unmarried teenage mum.

F12

georgieporgy wrote: »

it was my understanding that Mary was betrothed to Joseph and both had agreed to live a life of continence (which they did). So they were married when Mary gave birth so she then was not an unmarried teenage mum.

I don't recall the bible making any mention of when Mary and Joseph were married, so how can anyone say for sure that she was definitely not unmarried a the time of Jesus' birth?
To be fully married would also involve consummation (and this is even the rule under RC marriage laws even today) so if she was pregnant with another's child, then they would hardly have sex before the birth. Even is they did so, the RCC insists that Mary was always and ever a virgin, therefore having an intact hymen, even after she had Jesus and after sex with Joseph. It's at the core of the belief system.

gimmebroadband

It looks to me that Mary was married before the Birth of Christ!
Matt 1:18

Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

PDN

Part of the problem here is that we project our western 21st Century concepts of marriage into 1st Century Palestine.

We live in a culture where marriage is a clearly defined act at a precise point in time. At any moment prior to the point where the celebrant says, "I now pronounce you man and wife" then you are unmarried, but after that point you are married. Our religious and civic hierarchies work hand in glove to make sure that this works neatly and in time for the photographs to be taken and then for grandad to get embarrassingly drunk at the reception.

But, even today, in many societies that is not the case. For example, in many parts of Africa it is common to hold a traditional wedding with the families concerned, then afterwards may come a civil ceremony before a magistrate, and then at a later date there is a wedding ceremony in a church. It is not unusual to hear couples who are in this process alternate between referring to their partner as fiance or spouse.

The most we can say about Mary and Joseph is that they were somewhere in the process between betrothal (which could happen at a very young age and several years before actual marriage) and full sexual consummation. And, while they were in this process, it would be common to refer to someone as your husband. Also, if a dowry had already been paid and a contract made between their families, then a divorce may well have been necessary to void the marriage - even though the marriage was not yet complete or consummated.

We don't know how old Mary was - but it is often assumed that she was a teenager as girls often married young in those days.

martinedwards

F12 wrote: »

the RCC insists that Mary was always and ever a virgin, therefore having an intact hymen, even after she had Jesus and after sex with Joseph. It's at the core of the belief system.

see THAT is the bit we prods have difficulty wrapping our heads round.

as far as I (as a prod) understand it, Jesus, virgin birth, miraculous.

after that, in a Jesus centred faith, Mary's role is as a mother. whether she remained a virgin, shaved off her eyebrows or learned to ride unicycle is irrelivent after the birth of jesus.

I KNOW that The RC church have other ideas, and I'm happy that you do, I UNDERSTAND the asking Mary to pray for you.....

if I was sick I'd ask a living friend to pray for me.

I believe that Mary is in Heaven alive in the very presence of God.

therefore to ask her to "put in a word for me" isn't an issue. I UNDERSTAND that, but I don't DO that as I believe that as a part of the priesthood of all believers I can get the same level of access as I'm adopted as a son of God myself (says so in the Bible y'know!!)

I'm not getting down on you about Marian doctrines, I just don't follow them myself!

newmug

Cosmo K wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

Sonics2k wrote: »

To be fair, hardly an uncommon (birth) life and death in those days.

WHAT???:eek::eek::eek: It wasn't unusual to nail someone to a cross? I'm sorry, but it very much was! Crucifition was a fairly new invention by the romans, as the person didnt die straight away, the hung there alive and in agony. It was a powerful psychological weapon against the natives of whatever country they invaded, dont mess with these boys or you'll end up crucified. Jesus's case was worse due to the nailing instead of being tied with ropes. The usual form of execution was beheading or being thrown to animals.

newmug

martinedwards wrote: »

see THAT is the bit we prods have difficulty wrapping our heads round.

as far as I (as a prod) understand it, Jesus, virgin birth, miraculous.

after that, in a Jesus centred faith, Mary's role is as a mother. whether she remained a virgin, shaved off her eyebrows or learned to ride unicycle is irrelivent after the birth of jesus.

I KNOW that The RC church have other ideas, and I'm happy that you do, I UNDERSTAND the asking Mary to pray for you.....

if I was sick I'd ask a living friend to pray for me.

I believe that Mary is in Heaven alive in the very presence of God.

therefore to ask her to "put in a word for me" isn't an issue. I UNDERSTAND that, but I don't DO that as I believe that as a part of the priesthood of all believers I can get the same level of access as I'm adopted as a son of God myself (says so in the Bible y'know!!)

I'm not getting down on you about Marian doctrines, I just don't follow them myself!

Good common-sense post there Martin. As for the hymen being intact etc., the point of the whole "virgin" thing is she never had sex, therefore she was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, therefore making Jesus free of original sin.

ceegee

newmug wrote: »

Cosmo K wrote: »

Well, it wasn't exactly cruel and unusual 2000 years ago....

Sonics2k wrote: »

To be fair, hardly an uncommon (birth) life and death in those days.

WHAT???:eek::eek::eek: It wasn't unusual to nail someone to a cross? I'm sorry, but it very much was! Crucifition was a fairly new invention by the romans, as the person didnt die straight away, the hung there alive and in agony. It was a powerful psychological weapon against the natives of whatever country they invaded, dont mess with these boys or you'll end up crucified. Jesus's case was worse due to the nailing instead of being tied with ropes. The usual form of execution was beheading or being thrown to animals.

Well there was at least another 2 on the same day, on the same hill so not exactly unheard of

Ash.J.Williams

It was most definitely not an imacculate conception, I'm 100% sure about that.

newmug

ceegee wrote: »

Well there was at least another 2 on the same day, on the same hill so not exactly unheard of

True. But no-one said it was unheard of, just that it was cruel and unusual. Which it was.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It was most definitely not an imacculate conception, I'm 100% sure about that.

Go on:rolleyes:

Doc Farrell

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It was most definitely not an imacculate conception, I'm 100% sure about that.

This should be good. Go on.

wolfsbane

Unmarried mother? Depends on how you define 'mother'. She was certainly an unmarried pregnant woman.

But if one defines 'mother' as one having given birth, then Mary was not an unmarried mother - Joseph took her in marriage before Jesus was born:
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”...
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.


Mary did not have sex before Jesus was born. Her hymen was intact until the birth. Afterwards she and Joseph behaved as a good husband and wife should, sharing sexual love. Jesus' brothers and sisters grew up with Him.

*******************************************************************
Matthew 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”

Sonics2k

newmug wrote: »

WHAT???:eek::eek::eek: It wasn't unusual to nail someone to a cross? I'm sorry, but it very much was! Crucifition was a fairly new invention by the romans, as the person didnt die straight away, the hung there alive and in agony. It was a powerful psychological weapon against the natives of whatever country they invaded, dont mess with these boys or you'll end up crucified. Jesus's case was worse due to the nailing instead of being tied with ropes. The usual form of execution was beheading or being thrown to animals.

Eh? For one, Crucifixion was a Jewish invention (though it was also used by the Persians, Greeks, Macedonians and more long before Rome), and it was used very commonly across the empire for acts of treason.

The best example would be when some 5000 slaves were crucified for attempting a rebellion.

But yes, his death was quite common for those who had committed what was considered an act of treason or rebellion against the Roman empire, and crucifixion was saved for such a crime.

Adamas

wolfsbane wrote: »

Unmarried mother? Depends on how you define 'mother'. She was certainly an unmarried pregnant woman.

But if one defines 'mother' as one having given birth, then Mary was not an unmarried mother - Joseph took her in marriage before Jesus was born:
Matthew 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”...
24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.


Mary did not have sex before Jesus was born. Her hymen was intact until the birth. Afterwards she and Joseph behaved as a good husband and wife should, sharing sexual love. Jesus' brothers and sisters grew up with Him.

*******************************************************************
Matthew 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”

Ookay then...so when did her hymen regenerate, in accordance with the perpetual virginity of Mary which is at the core of RC teaching? After she had Jesus and the other children, or after Joseph had sex with her for the last time? Or did it keep on regrowing after each sexual act?

Adamas

Doc Farrell wrote: »

This should be good. Go on.

It should be. The so-called 'immaculate conception' refers to the conception of Mary by her mother, Anne, and is yet a different belief than the one about Jesus being born of a virgin. link

Doc Farrell

Very good Adam and as you have kindly provided a link regarding the catholic doctrine about the perpetual virginity of Mary it would seem that you are quite a whizz on the Internet. So finding the answers to the questions that you ask shouldn't be too much trouble for you.

Edit: my reply was in regards to the other post which was, probably wisely, cut. So feel free to chop chop this one too.

georgieporgy

As for all the other children Mary and Joseph were supposed to have had, what did they do with them when they went to Jerusalem when Jesus was aged 12?

Did they leave them at home because they weren't so special? If they were too young to travel does that mean the Holy Family practiced contraception occasionally?

PDN

Can we keep on topic rather than having a sectarian squabble please? Feel free to discuss whether Mary was an unmarried teenage mother.

philologos

OP: The New Testament accounts don't offer us anything on Mary's age, but yes probably she was.

georgieporgy

philologos wrote: »

OP: The New Testament accounts don't offer us anything on Mary's age, but yes probably she was.

but if they weren't married why did Joseph take her with him to the Census in Jerusalem?

philologos

georgieporgy wrote: »

but if they weren't married why did Joseph take her with him to the Census in Jerusalem?

Matthew 1:18-19 wrote:

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.

Luke 1:26-27 wrote:

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary.

Luke 2:4-5 wrote:

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the town of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.

These passages should help. I'm wary of assuming things other than what are told Scripturally on the subject.

georgieporgy

But.... what about this?

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3229-betrothal

read it all but here's a teaser;


In the Bible. Several Biblical passages refer to the negotiations requisite for the arranging of a marriage (Gen. xxiv.; Song of Songs viii. 8; Judges xiv. 2-7), which were conducted by members of the two families involved, or their deputies, and required usually the consent of the prospective bride (if of age); but when the agreement had been entered into, it was definite and binding upon both groom and bride, who were considered as man and wife in all legal and religious aspects, except that of actual cohabitation.
The root ("to betroth"), from which the Talmudic abstract ("betrothal") is derived, must be taken in this sense; i.e., to contract an actual though incomplete marriage. In two of thepassages in which it occurs the betrothed woman is directly designated as "wife" (II Sam. iii. 14, "my wife whom I have betrothed" ("erasti"), and Deut. xxii. 24, where the betrothed is designated as "the wife of his neighbor"). In strict accordance with this sense the rabbinical law declares that the betrothal is equivalent to an actual marriage and only to be dissolved by a formal divorce.

Ambersky

Ok maybe it was a shotgun wedding, maybe she was pregnant before the official wedding, maybe she was a virgin when she got pregnant and stayed a virgin throughout her marriage to Joseph and maybe she didn’t.
All this arguing about virginity and paternity! Throughout the ages these have been seen as the important issues about many women full stop, not just Mary, so she’s not alone there.
There could be some issues other than virginity or paternity in this story of particular interest for women but they tend to get forgotten. It’s a pity really because the Christian churches say they want to be able to relate to and stand up for the poor and the oppressed but they don’t usually put forward Mary as a story that ordinary women in a similar situation could relate to.
The Christian churches are usually too conservative and middle class in my opinion to be able to see Jesus or Mary or Joseph as anything other than a reflection of themselves and their own class values.

Mary if we go by the story knew what it was like to be the subject of gossip.
Even more serious than the gossip there were laws governing the sexual activities of young people with particular harshness applied to the infidelities of women. Mary, her mother and Joseph all knew that. To be found pregnant before an official marriage was one of those things that fell foul of that law.
This was a bit of a dilemma for Joseph who knew he hadn’t had sex with Mary ( or so the story goes, I don’t know)
Its a hell of a story imagine the drama, why isnt there a movie. Mary and Joseph the early years.
The christian churches have missed the point of Mary as a role model for women focusing on virginity and passivity and leaving out the social shame and the courage tenacity strength wisdom etc it takes to live with it. I think they are afraid of the teenage pregnant womans story, I think they are ashamed of it.
Joseph has been kind of overlooked in all this too presented as something like Gods cuckold but a jolly good sport and little else, hardly getting a look in. I mean when did he die, was he lifted up to heaven, what kind of a father was he, did Jesus ever mention him.

For Joseph to "put Mary away" (1:19, literally) meant for Joseph to divorce her (NIV). Ancient Mediterranean fathers generally arranged their daughters' marriages through a custom called betrothal. Betrothal was much more serious than our modern practice of "engagement…..
At the same time we should observe that the circumstances under which Joseph was planning to divorce Mary were hardly light. Unlike today, Joseph had no option of giving Mary a second chance, even if he wanted to. Jewish and Roman law both demanded that a man divorce his wife if she were guilty of adultery (Keener 1991a:31, 156). Roman law actually treated a husband who failed to divorce an unfaithful wife as a panderer exploiting his wife as a prostitute (Gardner 1986:131-32; Richlin 1981:227).............
Further, Joseph had another reason to divorce her. Because others would assume that Joseph himself must have gotten her pregnant unless he divorced her, his reputation was at stake for the rest of his life. Joseph probably also did not know Mary as well as we would expect of engaged couples today and had little reason to trust her innocence; if our sources are reliable, Galilean couples apparently enjoyed no privacy together until the wedding.........
. Joseph hence experiences the pain of betrayal, the breach of a contract more binding than a business deal in his culture 71:6-11)
Joseph was righteous not because he was divorcing Mary (although, as noted, this did not make him unrighteous); rather, Joseph was righteous for divorcing Mary quietly or privately-that is, for not bringing unnecessary shame on her. He knew suffering already awaited her: her premarital pregnancy had likely already ruined any chance of her ever marrying (see Delaney 1987:42), a horrible fate in an economically and honor-driven male-centered society. (Deut 22:21-24 mandated execution for this offense, but that penalty could rarely be carried out in this period

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/When-Virgin-Gave-Birth