Throw Germany out of Euro

positron · 30-11-2011 11:59AM #1

It's a crazy thought - but surely if the Germans have so much of a problem with their fear of inflation, and if that is the primary reason that is holding back euro devaluations and market correction that is needed for rest of Europe, may be the PIIGS and other should come together and suggest Germany leave the Euro currency, and EU can then start the 'quantitative easing' of Euro to suit rest of the countries, and let Germany benefit from (or suffer from low exports) their own decision?

Salmon · 30-11-2011 12:06PM

Often thought this myself to be honest! Maybe there is a glaring reason why it hasnt been suggested, but it would solve a lot of our problems!!

Scofflaw · 30-11-2011 12:22PM

The reason the whole crisis revolves around Germany's actions is that Germany (and to a slightly lesser extent France) is the country with the economic strength to guarantee other people's debts - but quite reasonably it's not keen on doing so, because by doing so it makes itself liable for them.

If you "throw Germany out of the euro" then the ECB and the euro loses a huge chunk of firepower and credibility. The bond rates for all the euro countries would surge, and there would be nobody with the economic strength to guarantee them, bail them out, or buy their bonds.

In short, Germany is the keystone of the euro, and taking it out would be tantamount to dissolving the euro.

cordially,
Scofflaw

swordofislam · 30-11-2011 01:59PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

In short, Germany is the keystone of the euro, and taking it out would be tantamount to dissolving the euro.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Precisely.
Our debt is euro denominated. If we get the Germans out of the Euro our outstanding debt will be eaten up by inflation.
No one can be thrown out of the Euro but the PIIGS and all the non Euro countries with alot of Euro denominated debt should be working to create a situation where the Greeks are the last man standing in the Euro and our Euros really will be EYPΩΣ!:)

positron · 30-11-2011 02:03PM

swordofislam wrote: »

..our outstanding debt will be eaten up by inflation.[/B]

... which is the standard solution for this sort of economic crysis. Short period of pain, but it would work out better eventually with equal impact on the majority - rather than creating 'too big to fail' entities that are supported by squeezing 'too small to protest' ordinary Joe.

cyberhog · 01-12-2011 03:36AM

You have as much chance of throwing Germany out of the Euro as a hedgehog has of making it across the M50.

n_i_n_a · 07-12-2011 12:33AM

Oh you have no idea how much most Germans actually wish to get out of the Euro! Can't blame them really - the average German is struggling, every sixth child is affected by poverty - and here they are paying for lazy Greeks, and useless european goverments.

Is it not pure irony that the European Union was founded with the thought and vision of a united Europe and look at the mess now...Anger, racism and ignorance is rising all over Europe.

meglome · 07-12-2011 12:47AM

n_i_n_a wrote: »

Oh you have no idea how much most Germans actually wish to get out of the Euro! Can't blame them really - the average German is struggling, every sixth child is affected by poverty - and here they are paying for lazy Greeks, and useless european goverments.

Is it not pure irony that the European Union was founded with the thought and vision of a united Europe and look at the mess now...Anger, racism and ignorance is rising all over Europe.

I suppose you'll be proving that now, will you?

07-12-2011 01:05AM

n_i_n_a wrote: »

Oh you have no idea how much most Germans actually wish to get out of the Euro! Can't blame them really - the average German is struggling, every sixth child is affected by poverty - and here they are paying for lazy Greeks, and useless european goverments.

Is it not pure irony that the European Union was founded with the thought and vision of a united Europe and look at the mess now...Anger, racism and ignorance is rising all over Europe.

Then most Germans don't have a clue about economics. Their economy has flourished under a ridiculously under priced currency in relation to them and their exports have grown hugely because of this creating employment and wealth. If they left the Euro the German economy would shrink huge levels within a year.

Their wealth is an illusion created by having weak economies like Greece keeping the Euro at an artificially weak level allowing Germany to compete on an unfair footing regards exports.

The Euro was never created as a united Europe, it was a Germanic Franco idea of modern day colonialism via currency, that was motivated by purely selfish reasons and thus it has come to pass.

Empire o de Sun · 11-12-2011 10:33PM

Clay Squeaking Historian wrote: »

Their wealth is an illusion created by having weak economies like Greece keeping the Euro at an artificially weak level allowing Germany to compete on an unfair footing regards exports

Working hard, economic dicipline, population, and geography and many other things have made Germany successful.

If Germany grows then europe as a whole can grow. A successful economy in Germany is key for Ireland.

Compete on an unfair footing?

Anyway all wealth is an illusion, but that is getting into philisophy.

Fratton Fred · 13-12-2011 09:46PM

How can you throw Germany out of the euro? Scratch the surface of any euro coin and it has Deutschmark written underneath.

VoidStarNull · 13-12-2011 11:05PM

Inflation transfers wealth from creditors to debtors. In other words, it's just another way of forcing someone else to pay your debts. Creditors include pension funds, and traditionally pensioners and anyone else on a fixed income have been the big losers during inflations.

If creditor nations such as Germany leave the euro until only the debtors are left, then by definition the debtors will be owing money in foreign currency, not euros. So de-valuing the euro would make the debt harder, not easier, to repay.

BTW - I'm not necessarily against inflation. The trick is to keep the creditors in while you do it. And naturally - they are reliuctant to agree!

thebman · 14-12-2011 01:24AM

VoidStarNull wrote: »

Inflation transfers wealth from creditors to debtors. In other words, it's just another way of forcing someone else to pay your debts. Creditors include pension funds, and traditionally pensioners and anyone else on a fixed income have been the big losers during inflations.

If creditor nations such as Germany leave the euro until only the debtors are left, then by definition the debtors will be owing money in foreign currency, not euros. So de-valuing the euro would make the debt harder, not easier, to repay.

BTW - I'm not necessarily against inflation. The trick is to keep the creditors in while you do it. And naturally - they are reliuctant to agree!

Germany isn't quite as debt free as the media makes them out to be though, it is just less of a problem there, it is still a problem.

Otherwise they'd probably have left already

Wurzelbert · 19-05-2012 06:15PM

anyone seriously suggesting throwing germany out of the euro obviously does not understand the euro or the eu itself and probably has no concept of european history beyond the “official” version (as written by those who won the last two european wars)…

without germany, the eu and the euro would and could not exist:
the eu, in its root idea, is really nothing else than the treaty of versailles all over again in a more refined and less aggressive form (after the original had lead to another war)…
and as for the euro: since the french and english were not strong enough to prevent german reunification back in 1990 (and they did try), the euro - an older idea nobody ever really wanted - was pulled out of the drawer and helmut kohl’s government basically had to agree to its introduction so france and england would give up their resistance and let the german people reunite…the purpose of the euro has always been to take control of its own currency and economy (thus its own destiny) away from the german nation in an attempt to weaken and control an enlarged (as compared to the post-war era) germany for the foreseeable future…
the whole eu and euro system can only work as long as the germans pay the bills…and the eu needs germany more than germany needs the eu…

charlemont · 19-05-2012 06:20PM

n_i_n_a wrote: »

Oh you have no idea how much most Germans actually wish to get out of the Euro! Can't blame them really - the average German is struggling, every sixth child is affected by poverty - and here they are paying for lazy Greeks, and useless european goverments.

Is it not pure irony that the European Union was founded with the thought and vision of a united Europe and look at the mess now...Anger, racism and ignorance is rising all over Europe.

Its a shame, That's what it is..

Lantus · 20-05-2012 02:09AM

Germany may well decide that getting out first is a better idea!

Inflation is a big cheat of monetary policy that allows all our work and goods to be worth less just becasue the banks continually print more money to provide more loans.

The fact that we are all 'wishing' for QE is a total reliance on a broken system. It will never make things better in the long run. All we are doing is selling what is left of our souls to a banking system that was designed from day 1 to be flawed so we would all fail.

BettyM · 20-05-2012 08:35AM

Lantus wrote: »

Germany may well decide that getting out first is a better idea!

Inflation is a big cheat of monetary policy that allows all our work and goods to be worth less just becasue the banks continually print more money to provide more loans.

The fact that we are all 'wishing' for QE is a total reliance on a broken system. It will never make things better in the long run. All we are doing is selling what is left of our souls to a banking system that was designed from day 1 to be flawed so we would all fail.

Many things are a big cheat. Borrowing billions ( ie incresing taxation tomorrow to pay the interest and capital back) to pay today's current account bills, for example.

We are in this mess because we voted for politicians who were of poor quality. And we continue to vote for rotten politicians, and so the mess continues, as our politicians are now merely actors, playing out a part, and they no longer have the will, or the ability, to lead anywhere, their only priority seeming to be to get themselves reelected.

In 1979 the UK voted in a Tory government led by Mrs Thatcher. She faced a similar situation Ireland now faces, with bloated government spending and budgets and debts out of control. She identified the problem ( too much borrowing too much spending too much debt) and her solution led to the UK, in a few short years, moving from being the "sick man of Europe" to being the 4th largest economy in the World.

Ireland's politicians, those who the irish have voted for, have concluded that the country is up to is oxters in debt, the debt being so big it is threatening to sink the island, and their solution is to.....borrow more money.

Worse still, they also are actually lobbying to hand over control of the countries finances, in perpetuity, to unelected faceless bureaucrats outside the Island, and to finally take away democratic accountability on how the irish are taxed. When the full implications of this are realised, should it come about, then who knows where that will lead.

Wurzelbert · 20-05-2012 10:17AM

and to add to my previous post: you could not „throw germany out of euro“ as that would mean the immediate end of the euro and the eu as we know it. also i don’t think there even is a provision in the treaty for throwing out any country…that’s why greece, spain, italy and portugal cannot simply be kicked out…

meglome · 20-05-2012 05:20PM

BettyM wrote: »

Worse still, they also are actually lobbying to hand over control of the countries finances, in perpetuity, to unelected faceless bureaucrats outside the Island, and to finally take away democratic accountability on how the irish are taxed. When the full implications of this are realised, should it come about, then who knows where that will lead.

Thankfully that's not what's actually happening. Firstly we are the EU as much as anyone is, this isn't about 'faceless bureaucrats', the EU has always worked on unanimity. We decide what taxes are levied and the new body that oversees our spending is an Irish one created in Irish law.

BettyM · 21-05-2012 07:10AM

Wurzelbert wrote: »

and to add to my previous post: you could not „throw germany out of euro“ as that would mean the immediate end of the euro and the eu as we know it. also i don’t think there even is a provision in the treaty for throwing out any country…that’s why greece, spain, italy and portugal cannot simply be kicked out…

I know I couldn't throw anyone out of the Euro.

The Euro has proved to be a complete and utter disaster for the people of the EU, akin to a doomesday machine and a massive destroyer of jobs and wealth.

It is a cancer which has spread its tentacles throughout the EU destroying joba and wealth, just as was predicted before it was launched, and the EU diagnosis seems to be that you save the cancer and ignore the patient.

I can't do anything, but events will. A year ago I was laughed at for saying that it was only a matter of time before Greece left the Euro, and was told the EU would save Greece and would never let it leave the Euro, that there was no "mechanism" for them to leave the Euro and so on.

The EU has long been telling us all that the Euro would be the saviour of Europe, a currency to rival the USD, and would herald a new dawn across Europe. Even when the flaws were pointed out and that the Euro was more likely to prove a disaster for the people of Europe, the grand project would not be stopped.

The Euro is doomed and the EU still doesn't get it. doesn't get that they can't manipulate and bully and beat the world markets into submission. Facts are facts, and not just what we would like them to be, and it's a disgrace that so many of us still believe that the Euro is the answer to our problems, rather than the cancer which is causing many of the current problems.

Scofflaw · 21-05-2012 07:12AM

BettyM wrote: »

I know I couldn't throw anyone out of the Euro.

The Euro has proved to be a complete and utter disaster for the people of the EU, akin to a doomesday machine and a massive destroyer of jobs and wealth.

It is a cancer which has spread its tentacles throughout the EU destroying joba and wealth, just as was predicted before it was launched, and the EU diagnosis seems to be that you save the cancer and ignore the patient.

I can't do anything, but events will. A year ago I was laughed at for saying that it was only a matter of time before Greece left the Euro, and was told the EU would save Greece and would never let it leave the Euro, that there was no "mechanism" for them to leave the Euro and so on.

The EU has long been telling us all that the Euro would be the saviour of Europe, a currency to rival the USD, and would herald a new dawn across Europe. Even when the flaws were pointed out and that the Euro was more likely to prove a disaster for the people of Europe, the grand project would not be stopped.

The Euro is doomed and the EU still doesn't get it. doesn't get that they can't manipulate and bully and beat the world markets into submission. Facts are facts, and not just what we would like them to be, and it's a disgrace that so many of us still believe that the Euro is the answer to our problems, rather than the cancer which is causing many of the current problems.

It would be nice if you actually proved your claims, rather than just repeatedly stating that they're "facts". Politics is rife with "facts" that "everyone knows", which turn out almost immediately to be rubbish the moment you choose to research them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BettyM · 21-05-2012 12:03PM

Scofflaw wrote: »

It would be nice if you actually proved your claims, rather than just repeatedly stating that they're "facts". Politics is rife with "facts" that "everyone knows", which turn out almost immediately to be rubbish the moment you choose to research them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

To me the Euro has proved to be a disaster. If you judge the Euro has been a great success, bringing wealth and properity to Ireland and Greece and Spain, than we disagree, which is a perfectly legitimate and happy place for us both to be in.

It may well be that you don't think Greece will leave the Euro, followed by other countries and followed by the inevitable collapse of the Euro as we know it. It may even be that you wil be proved right if thats what you do, indeed, judge. If I were a betting man I'd offer you a bet, but I am not.

Wurzelbert · 21-05-2012 08:06PM

Clay Squeaking Historian wrote: »

Then most Germans don't have a clue about economics. Their economy has flourished under a ridiculously under priced currency in relation to them and their exports have grown hugely because of this creating employment and wealth. If they left the Euro the German economy would shrink huge levels within a year.

Their wealth is an illusion created by having weak economies like Greece keeping the Euro at an artificially weak level allowing Germany to compete on an unfair footing regards exports.

The Euro was never created as a united Europe, it was a Germanic Franco idea of modern day colonialism via currency, that was motivated by purely selfish reasons and thus it has come to pass.

you forget that germany’s economy flourished long before and without the euro and that germany has been among the top three exporting nations worldwide for many decades (and we’re only talking post-war here)…so to say germany needs the euro is simply nonsense and a political lie…and to say the euro was a “germanic franco idea of modern day colonialism via currency” is also not really accurate, while the colonialism part is surely true as far as france is concerned…
and as for germany’s wealth being an illusion…well, i think you might have to readjust your perspective a little…everything else i have said in post # 14.

Scofflaw · 22-05-2012 12:56PM

BettyM wrote: »

To me the Euro has proved to be a disaster. If you judge the Euro has been a great success, bringing wealth and properity to Ireland and Greece and Spain, than we disagree, which is a perfectly legitimate and happy place for us both to be in.

On that basis we would neither agree nor disagree, though. What I'm asking is for you to show that the euro is responsible for the problems, rather than reiterating that there are problems in certain countries which use the euro.

Because, you see, there are plenty of similar problems in countries which don't have the euro, and plenty of countries which use the euro and don't have the problems.

Please don't just repeat yourself, and try telling me how the euro caused the problems in question.

BettyM wrote: »

It may well be that you don't think Greece will leave the Euro, followed by other countries and followed by the inevitable collapse of the Euro as we know it. It may even be that you wil be proved right if thats what you do, indeed, judge. If I were a betting man I'd offer you a bet, but I am not.

Er, personally I'd say it's an even bet, were I a betting man, which I'm not. If they don't leave the euro, it won't be for lack of messing about on their part, and will come down to the willingness of others to keep them in.

Again, though, that's Greece, not the euro. I'm not sure what property of the euro required a country to overspend and cook its books.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Amberman · 27-05-2012 03:23AM

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not sure what property of the euro required a country to overspend and cook its books.

cordially,
Scofflaw

If you change the word "required" to "enabled" in your statement above, you have a far more useful line of thought which highlights a lot of the structural weaknesses in the entire experiment.

beeftotheheels · 27-05-2012 10:53AM

BettyM wrote: »

To me the Euro has proved to be a disaster. If you judge the Euro has been a great success, bringing wealth and properity to Ireland and Greece and Spain, than we disagree, which is a perfectly legitimate and happy place for us both to be in.

Except that the facts tend to only support one side of the argument.

We, the Greek and the Spanish people are richer now that we were when we introduced the euro, even after all the "austerity".

http://product.datastream.com/dscharting/gateway.aspx?guid=4a59aad1-c706-40d5-b216-b9a198ddd6cd&action=REFRESH

darkhorse · 27-05-2012 02:08PM

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Except that the facts tend to only support one side of the argument.

We, the Greek and the Spanish people are richer now that we were when we introduced the euro, even after all the "austerity".

http://product.datastream.com/dscharting/gateway.aspx?guid=4a59aad1-c706-40d5-b216-b9a198ddd6cd&action=REFRESH

The "we" that you refer to in your post, I have to be honest with you, does not include the majority in the country ie working class, minimum earners, welfare receipients and maybe there might be more out there like me and some of my peers. just struggling all through life to try and pay bills. I know you are just showing us official gov data, but in reality the graphs do not mean anything to ordinary man, woman and child. Hands up those who agree, hands up those who dont,

beeftotheheels · 27-05-2012 03:08PM

jbyrne10 wrote: »

The "we" that you refer to in your post, I have to be honest with you, does not include the majority in the country ie working class, minimum earners, welfare receipients and maybe there might be more out there like me and some of my peers. just struggling all through life to try and pay bills. I know you are just showing us official gov data, but in reality the graphs do not mean anything to ordinary man, woman and child. Hands up those who agree, hands up those who dont,

But it does. If ever body earned the same income/ drew the same benefits as they did in 2000 our books would be completely balanced and we'd have no need of a bailout.

But wages went up, benefits went up, and with them spending and more importantly expectations went up.

I remember learning what my starting salary was to be in 1999 and thinking I'd be rich (given my expectations were those of an impoverished student).

If I was offered that same salary today I wouldn't know how to live on it.

But when I was a student going to Tesco looking to see which of the foods that were almost out of date had been reduced the most, the notion of buying a fresh chicken breast not approaching its sell by date would have struck me a luxury.

Now, the idea of not buying an organic free range chicken breast strikes me as cruel. I've developed principles along with my wages inflating, because I've become able to afford them.

I'm not suggesting that everyone out there has had the same wage inflation I've had, or that they have developed "posh" notions like eating organic meat. But every body will have seen changes to their expectations, changes they can rationalize (like me thinking farmed chicken is cruel and therefor buying organic free range).

It is much easier to not give someone a pay rise, than to give them one and then try to take it back later because of this.

The cold hard numbers suggest, that even with the present austerity, we are still the country which has benefited the most from Euro Membership. We shouldn't allow our recent pain cloud that. Yes we're worse off than we were in 2008. But we're still way better off than we were in 2000.

AVN_1 · 29-05-2012 04:19PM

positron wrote: »

It's a crazy thought - but surely if the Germans have so much of a problem with their fear of inflation, and if that is the primary reason that is holding back euro devaluations and market correction that is needed for rest of Europe, may be the PIIGS and other should come together and suggest Germany leave the Euro currency, and EU can then start the 'quantitative easing' of Euro to suit rest of the countries, and let Germany benefit from (or suffer from low exports) their own decision?

I agree with you that either Germany has to leave the Euro Zone or the other 5-8 countries should leave. As of now Germany is the main beneficiary of the Euro Zone and the most difficult "partner" to deal with in any Euro Zone related negotiations.

AVN_1 · 29-05-2012 04:26PM

n_i_n_a wrote: »

Oh you have no idea how much most Germans actually wish to get out of the Euro! Can't blame them really - the average German is struggling, every sixth child is affected by poverty - and here they are paying for lazy Greeks, and useless european goverments.

Euro Zone is not about "lazy Greeks", Euro Zone is about German crooks, who manipulated the currency in their favor and stole hundreds of billions Euro from the pockets of the countries with previously weaker currencies.

AVN_1 · 29-05-2012 04:31PM

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Working hard, economic dicipline, population, and geography and many other things have made Germany successful.

If Germany grows then europe as a whole can grow. A successful economy in Germany is key for Ireland.

Compete on an unfair footing?

Anyway all wealth is an illusion, but that is getting into philisophy.

You are probably too young to remember that before creation of the Euro Zone Germany was in stagnation for 15 years, while Ireland was growing 7-15% a year. Since we were manipulated to join the Euro Zone, we lost our economic strength.

Throw Germany out of Euro

Comments