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Newborn baby feared dead after Mother & Baby fall off Stena ship

24

Comments

  • #32
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    Sadly, those "terrible consequences" are usually for the defenceless, innocent child.

    True but you have to look at it in context. Its not a simple as a blood thirsty woman wants to cause harm to a child for kicks, its far deeper than that.


  • #33
    coolpaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32 ✭coolpaddy


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    She wont get jail.

    If this was intentional then as well as being "suicidal" (and managing to actually not kill herself), she was also "homicidal" (unless of course killing an infant is not classed as homicide).

    The killing of a child by its mother before it reaches the age of 12 months is sometimes referred to as infanticide. It's different to homicide in that the intent to kill may be there but the mother's judgement and perception may be altered of distorted as the result of hormones that are present due to her giving birth in the first place.This is an awful story. I'm hoping for the best outcome but I fear the worst may have happened. God love them.


  • #34
    bronte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I dont think the fact that a male cannot physically gestate a baby for 9 months should in any way be used to absolve a female of a (perceived) crime.

    When a woman gives a child up for adoption she has 6 months in which to officially sign the papers because she is not considered "sane" after having given birth. It's a massive physical and mental ordeal. The woman in this horrific story may have been in a dreadful mental state. I really don't think this is the place for a male vs female argument.


  • #35
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    hairyprincess wrote: »
    There's a lot more to pregnancy than gestation. But I'm not going to give a biology lesson in a failed argument. This is a tragic story about a mother and her baby, lets keep to that


    I dont need a biology lesson, and an argument is not "failed" just because you dont agree with it.

    You were the one who brought up the concept of pregnancy and birth affording women some kind of exclusive "women only" rights to an opinion on infanticide - I believe your exact words were, "when men carry babies in their womb for nine months and give birth, possibly a traumatic birth, then we can have that discussion".


  • #36
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    bronte wrote: »
    When a woman gives a child up for adoption she has 6 months in which to officially sign the papers because she is not considered "sane" after having given birth. It's a massive physical and mental ordeal. The woman in this horrific story may have been in a dreadful mental state. I really don't think this is the place for a male vs female argument.

    True...again we don't know anything about the circumstances so speculation is unfair. If it was an accident and it could easily have been this family are going through enough without having people thinking she is a killer.


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  • #37
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Has no one here even looked online at the news?
    Shortly before 6pm yesterday, police received reports that a woman and child had fallen from the Stena Line ferry from Cairnryan to Belfast.

    The woman was rescued from the water shortly after the alarm was raised. She is now in a stable condition at the Royal Victoria Hospital..

    A major search operation continued this morning for the missing baby.

    As yet there has been no sign of the child and now say they cannot confirm that a child is missing.


    From RTE

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0510/search-to-resume-for-missing-child.html



    Hope its not true, but Personally, I smell bullshiit.


  • #38
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    eviltwin wrote: »
    True but you have to look at it in context. Its not a simple as a blood thirsty woman wants to cause harm to a child for kicks, its far deeper than that.

    I'm aware of that and I would not for a second class it in the same category as cold-blooded, pre-meditated killings but I am simply making the observation that it is usually the child who suffers the most (ie ends up dead)


  • #39
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Mr. Presentable wrote: »
    She should surely be charged with something. Endangerment at the least. But I guess her gender will preclude this.

    Funny how when you suggest an unreasonable woman is suffering with her hormones you are always wrong, yet when there's a charge to answer it is the first best defence :confused:

    Turning a tragedy into a gender issue.... great stuff.


  • #40
    Sala
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭Sala


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    She wont get jail.

    If this was intentional then as well as being "suicidal" (and managing to actually not kill herself), she was also "homicidal" (unless of course killing an infant is not classed as homicide).

    It's classed as infanticide and is a lesser crime than murder - similar to manslaughter.
    It only applies to mothers of young infants, not daddies or other people who didn't give birth to the child presumably in recognition of the fact that many women who do this are not of sound mind as a result of pregnancy, birth etc.


  • #41
    stinkle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭stinkle


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Post natal depression is a very real and very frightening thing...go onto any parenting website and read the posts from women who are going through it.

    And thats at its most basic...there is a condition called post natal psychosis where the woman can hear voices, can actually believe her baby is evil..its rare but not as rare as you might think and its very serious. Sadly so many women are afraid of admitting to it as they are afraid of being judged as being a bad mother so they hide it often with there terrible consequences.

    Very true, I know a nurse who has spent her whole career working in maternity hospitals - she once told me that they worry more about the mothers who are adamant the they are "fine" when discharged from the hospital than those who honestly admit to being a bit overwhelmed by it all. There's a huge perception that admitting you're struggling makes you a bad parent.


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  • #42
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The sound of metal-on-stone reached a deafening crescendo as the axes were sharpened for battle.


  • #43
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I'm aware of that and I would not for a second class it in the same category as cold-blooded, pre-meditated killings but I am simply making the observation that it is usually the child who suffers the most (ie ends up dead)

    Not always...it can result in suicide or self harming. Its rare that a baby dies because a woman deliberately kills it.


  • #44
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,463 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    DrumSteve wrote: »
    This is some bad ****. Hope the child is okay, but I'm not holding out hope.

    The baby is dead.

    The mother/woman was hypothermic during her time in the water. No chance the baby would survive much longer than that.

    Its a tragedy. They should resume the search, if only to allow the family to say goodbye.


  • #45
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Not always...it can result in suicide or self harming. Its rare that a baby dies because a woman deliberately kills it.
    really?


  • #46
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭up for anything


    Mr. Presentable wrote: »
    She should surely be charged with something. Endangerment at the least. But I guess her gender will preclude this.

    Funny how when you suggest an unreasonable woman is suffering with her hormones you are always wrong, yet when there's a charge to answer it is the first best defence :confused:
    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    I wonder if the childs daddy had gone over the side with the 9 day old innocent baby what would the reaction be here?

    Would it be "ah the poor thing etc etc

    or murdering b@stard?

    I'm sensing something here... :rolleyes:


  • #47
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    The baby is dead.

    The mother/woman was hypothermic during her time in the water. No chance the baby would survive much longer than that.

    Its a tragedy. They should resume the search, if only to allow the family to say goodbye.

    FFS, have you read the News artilcle?

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0510/search-to-resume-for-missing-child.html

    PSNI unable to confirm missing baby after ferry incident in Belfast Lough

    We all love a good gossip, but thankfully, this story seems to be a load of codswollop!


  • #48
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    really?

    Well how many cases of a mother killing her child have their been? I can think of one or two but that's it. Its hardly a regular thing.


  • #49
    thebuzz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 654 ✭✭✭thebuzz


    WTF? There's no baby now at all? At least that's great news if true.

    Hope the woman gets the help she clearly needs.


  • #50
    Nothingbetter2d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    surely the passenger manifest would say if there was a baby or not


  • #51
    phasers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,159 ✭✭✭✭phasers


    This makes no sense. I thought there were witnesses who saw the woman with the baby?


    What an awful story, that woman needs serious help regardless of the outcome.


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  • #52
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Well how many cases of a mother killing her child have their been? I can think of one or two but that's it. Its hardly a regular thing.

    I know it doesnt happen on a regular basis but it just seems that when it DOES hapen, the child comes out the worst.


  • #53
    hairyprincess
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭hairyprincess


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I dont need a biology lesson, and an argument is not "failed" just because you dont agree with it.

    You were the one who brought up the concept of pregnancy and birth affording women some kind of exclusive "women only" rights to an opinion on infanticide - I believe your exact words were, "when men carry babies in their womb for nine months and give birth, possibly a traumatic birth, then we can have that discussion".

    It wasn't me who brought up 'pregnancy and birth affording women exculsive rights, I was replying to others who brought it up, if you care to read back to my posts #24 and #26.

    It is a non argument, because men cannot carry babies and thus are unaffected in the way a woman is. Those comments were serving to do nothing more than take away from a tragedy. Which seems to not have happened at all, which in fairness is just as tragic; that poor woman obviously has some serious mental health issues. And I will reiterate my hope for her to get all the help she needs.

    I'm just sorry that peoples lives were put at risk searching for a baby that didn't exist.


  • #54
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    I know it doesnt happen on a regular basis but it just seems that when it DOES hapen, the child comes out the worst.

    That's true and I am not condoning or making excuses. I just think its a lot bigger than a case of murder, there are a lot of psychological factors that can't be ignored if we are to learn from it and stop it happening again.


  • #55
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    eviltwin wrote: »
    That's true and I am not condoning or making excuses. I just think its a lot bigger than a case of murder, there are a lot of psychological factors that can't be ignored if we are to learn from it and stop it happening again.
    True. I read a book once called "Emma's Baby" (I think) where the woman had pnd and her husband (who had left her for someone he met during the pregnancy) basically used it to get the child taken off her (as far as I remember). Pretty sad read but shed light on the issue as you see it from the mothers viewpoint.


  • #56
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    hairyprincess wrote: »
    It wasn't me who brought up 'pregnancy and birth affording women exculsive rights, I was replying to others who brought it up, if you care to read back to my posts #24 and #26.

    It is a non argument, because men cannot carry babies and thus are unaffected in the way a woman is. Those comments were serving to do nothing more than take away from a tragedy. Which seems to not have happened at all, which in fairness is just as tragic; that poor woman obviously has some serious mental health issues. And I will reiterate my hope for her to get all the help she needs.

    I'm just sorry that peoples lives were put at risk searching for a baby that didn't exist.

    How is it "just as tragic" that a baby has not been killed?? It's a relief.


  • #57
    hairyprincess
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭hairyprincess


    OldNotWIse wrote: »
    How is it "just as tragic" that a baby has not been killed?? It's a relief.

    I said that in the belief that the 'mother' told the authorities that her baby was missing. Which means she has serious mental health problems which is extremely tragic.

    However, the news reports I've looked through have said that a woman and baby were seen falling from the boat. It doesn't mention anything about the woman telling the authorities her baby was missing. Witnesses can often be wrong, hopefully in this case they are


  • #58
    ziggy23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭ziggy23


    Jesus how sad if it is true. I understand women can suffer from Postnatal Depression but if I killed my own child I'd just want someone to shoot me then and there. How could you live with yourself after that.


  • #59
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    ziggy23 wrote: »
    Jesus how sad if it is true. I understand women can suffer from Postnatal Depression but if I killed my own child I'd just want someone to shoot me then and there. How could you live with yourself after that.

    Its like those cases where people snap and kill their entire family I would guess. Hard as it is to imagine they actually think they are doing them a favour.


  • #60
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    hairyprincess wrote: »
    I said that in the belief that the 'mother' told the authorities that her baby was missing. Which means she has serious mental health problems which is extremely tragic.

    However, the news reports I've looked through have said that a woman and baby were seen falling from the boat. It doesn't mention anything about the woman telling the authorities her baby was missing. Witnesses can often be wrong, hopefully in this case they are


    Lets hope its just chinese whispers or somethign. People love rubber-necking voyeurism and gossip alright :rolleyes:


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  • #61
    premierstone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    If the only premise for assuming there was a babay, was the witnesses reports how on earth did they come up with the 9 day old baby, something very very odd about this.


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