Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

irishbucsfan · 09-05-2012 1:54pm

I found the stats on testrugby.com to be more realistic during the 6 Nations

leftleg · 09-05-2012 1:58pm

Whats the point in mentioning these "stats" in the first place if you can't show them. You just end up looking like a gob****e when someone askes to have a look.

"eh.... no i'm not allowed, I'm telling you they do exist" Gowan outta that

thomond2006 · 09-05-2012 2:23pm

leftleg wrote: »

Whats the point in mentioning these "stats" in the first place if you can't show them. You just end up looking like a gob****e when someone askes to have a look.

"eh.... no i'm not allowed, I'm telling you they do exist" Gowan outta that

That pisses me off too.

No offence meant Justin, you are a great contributor to the forum but you're probably best off saying you don't have access to these things, rather than inadvertendly 'teasing' us. I realise that's not your aim but it comes across that way sometimes. I don't think it suffices to say "Well Y is true because I've seen X but I can't show X to you". To put that into context, if sometimes posts a news story, others will want to see a link to back it up.

Anyway what I say probably makes no odds so I'll be off! :pac:

Sorry mods, know I shouldn't target a poster yada yada...

justsomebloke · 09-05-2012 2:27pm

ok lads I know I can only blame myself for dragging this off topic, but if possible can we get back on the topic of Ireland from here

09-05-2012 2:52pm

while we're bashing mods, any chance you can delete the *mod warning ...* bit from the title?

Don't think anyone's even seen the post in months/years (delete as appropriate).

molloyjh · 09-05-2012 2:53pm

Surely there's no way Fez can go to NZ? The fact that he'll make the final is miracle/dangerous enough. For as much as he in an integral part of the team and having him against NZ is huge, they are really nothing games. The AIs will be far more important from a seeding point of view. And none of us want to see anything serious happen to the guy.

totallegend · 09-05-2012 3:18pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Surely there's no way Fez can go to NZ? The fact that he'll make the final is miracle/dangerous enough. For as much as he in an integral part of the team and having him against NZ is huge, they are really nothing games. The AIs will be far more important from a seeding point of view. And none of us want to see anything serious happen to the guy.

I'd be well in favour of this;

Ferris' knees get a rest which means O'Brien gets to play at 6 which means maybe, just maybe, we'll get to see Henry at 7.

To be honest, anything which rules out one of the regular starting XV for just long enough to keep them off the plane and has no lasting ill-effects, I'm not going to complain too loudly about (cf O'Connell's injury) if it means we give game time to more players.

Ciaran-Irl · 09-05-2012 3:44pm

I'm always amazed at how people can call these nothing games. They are massive games. We have never beaten New Zealand. A tour in the southern hemisphere was always a massive occasion. I would be happier winning two matches here than winning a Grand Slam in next year's 6 Nations.

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 3:45pm

Some interesting comments from Adam Jones today regarding the summer tours.

"It's a long season," Jones told Wales Online. "As nice as it is to go on a three-match tour of Australia, after a World Cup year, it's not great. I'm sure the boys would rather play one or two Tests and then come back home. But three Tests... well."

"It's not long to go now. Hopefully, we'll get to the final, have a couple of weeks off and then go from there. They're pretty good. They're not going to flog us so much. I am tired but I guess I'm not the only one."

http://www.espnscrum.com/wales/rugby/story/163840.html

I would say he's not the only one from Ire, Wales, and Eng who will be thinking this. If you take it pre season for the RWC began in July and Irelands last game is at the end of June so that's 11 months of rugby the players will have gone through.

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 3:51pm

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how people can call these nothing games. They are massive games. We have never beaten New Zealand. A tour in the southern hemisphere was always a massive occasion. I would be happier winning two matches here than winning a Grand Slam in next year's 6 Nations.

We've never played a three test tour in the Southern Hemisphere before. We've played a few two test tours but never three.

I woudn't call them nothing games but I do fear we're going to get hockeyed in two of the tests so it's hard to be enthusiastic about the games. As well there is no mid week or non test games so we won't be seeing any new or inexperienced Irish teams play.

Just for the record (the Irish score is listed first):
ResultFor Aga Diff HTf HTa Opposition Ground Match Date
won 27 12 +15 9 12 v Australia Brisbane 3 Jun 1979
won 9 3 +6 3 0 v Australia Sydney 16 Jun 1979

lost 15 23 -8 15 15 v South Africa Cape Town 30 May 1981
lost 10 12 -2 7 6 v South Africa Durban 6 Jun 1981

lost 21 24 -3 18 18 v New Zealand Dunedin 30 May 1992
lost 6 59 -53 6 15 v New Zealand Wellington 6 Jun 1992

lost 13 33 -20 3 13 v Australia Brisbane 5 Jun 1994
lost 18 32 -14 13 21 v Australia Sydney 11 Jun 1994

lost 13 37 -24 10 13 v South Africa Bloemfontein 13 Jun 1998
lost 0 33 -33 0 19 v South Africa Pretoria 20 Jun 1998

lost 10 46 -36 3 13 v Australia Brisbane 12 Jun 1999
lost 26 32 -6 11 9 v Australia Perth 19 Jun 1999

lost 6 15 -9 3 10 v New Zealand Dunedin 15 Jun 2002
lost 8 40 -32 3 13 v New Zealand Auckland 22 Jun 2002

lost 16 45 -29 13 14 v Australia Perth 7 Jun 2003
lost 16 17 -1 6 11 v Australia Melbourne 1 Nov 2003

lost 17 31 -14 11 11 v South Africa Bloemfontein 12 Jun 2004
lost 17 26 -9 10 20 v South Africa Cape Town 19 Jun 2004

lost 23 34 -11 16 8 v New Zealand Hamilton 10 Jun 2006
lost 17 27 -10 14 20 v New Zealand Auckland 17 Jun 2006

thomond2006 · 09-05-2012 3:59pm

Carter may play 12 for the All Blacks depending on how his groin injury responds in training.

Ciaran-Irl · 09-05-2012 3:59pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

We've never played a three test tour in the Southern Hemisphere before. We've played a few two test tours but never three.

I woudn't call them nothing games but I do fear we're going to get hockeyed in two of the tests so it's hard to be enthusiastic about the games.

2/3 - You know what I mean though.

Do you think the lack on interest in these games stems from a lack of belief that we have a chance? I guess that is what has happened to Scotland's supporters. When they started losing all the time, the fans vanished. I suppose you're right. If we have a bad era in say, 10 years time and we start finishing at the bottom of the 6 Nations table, lots of people will stop caring about Irish rugby. Sad but true.

Our chances of winning isn't a factor in how much I support the team and how much I care about the result though. These matches are huge for me, and all the talk of trying out second tier players is horse**** in my mind. We need to play our strongest team and we need to go out there to win.

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 4:19pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Carter may play 12 for the All Blacks depending on how his groin injury responds in training.

I think it relates to his kicking in that he's not up to it yet. He's been playing a few games at 12 for the Crusaders since he came back and is at 12 for this weekend again.

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

2/3 - You know what I mean though.

Do you think the lack on interest in these games stems from a lack of belief that we have a chance? I guess that is what has happened to Scotland's supporters. When they started losing all the time, the fans vanished. I suppose you're right. If we have a bad era in say, 10 years time and we start finishing at the bottom of the 6 Nations table, lots of people will stop caring about Irish rugby. Sad but true.

Our chances of winning isn't a factor in how much I support the team and how much I care about the result though. These matches are huge for me, and all the talk of trying out second tier players is horse**** in my mind. We need to play our strongest team and we need to go out there to win.

It's still a bit far out to be getting too much into the Ireland team at the moment as it's 4 weeks before we play the AB's. So maybe too early to be getting into the tour details just yet.

On the back of a poor 6 Nations and RWC, with not a huge amount of faith in our current team and management, going to play three games against a team we've never beaten before, and with memories of the last time we played them in NZ still fresh in our minds a lack of belief is one way of putting it.

Success for the Ireland team is huge I think as while Munster can claim a lot of credit for the current standing of Irish rugby the fact that the Ireland team were doing well at the time prob got more people interested in Irish rugby than just HEC success. Bizarrely the current success of the provinces is deflecting the short comings of the Irish team at the moment and until both the provinces and the national team starting doing poorly will we end up like Scotland.

I agree I'd rate winning a test series in New Zealand higher than winning a RWC. There could well be more winners of the RWC than there has been teams who've won series down there!

sock puppet · 09-05-2012 4:33pm

Unless Scotland can pull of a shock victory down south I'm pretty sure the AIs won't matter in terms of ranking

irishbucsfan · 09-05-2012 4:34pm

I'd love it if the IRFU limited everyone to 2 games max as a starter. It'd suit the players, it'd be in line with player welfare and it'd be great for the future.

ambid · 09-05-2012 4:56pm

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how people can call these nothing games. They are massive games. We have never beaten New Zealand. A tour in the southern hemisphere was always a massive occasion. I would be happier winning two matches here than winning a Grand Slam in next year's 6 Nations.

Seriously?

I absolutely disagree with you as winning a tournament counts for far more than winning any individual test match. This team should be measuring their success in terms of medals won, and there are no meaningful medals on offer after these matches. It's such a shame these players only have one international tournament medal to their name.

The Six Nations is far more important than any individual test match or test series in my opinion.

Tox56 · 09-05-2012 4:58pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love it if the IRFU limited everyone to 2 games max as a starter. It'd suit the players, it'd be in line with player welfare and it'd be great for the future.

*everyone except Mike Ross.

sock puppet · 09-05-2012 5:06pm

ambid wrote: »

Seriously?

I absolutely disagree with you as winning a tournament counts for far more than winning any individual test match. This team should be measuring their success in terms of medals won, and there are no meaningful medals on offer after these matches. It's such a shame these players only have one international tournament medal to their name.

The Six Nations is far more important than any individual test match or test series in my opinion.

Don't agree with you there. The trophy for winning the Lions tour doesn't make the series win any more or less prestigious.

irishbucsfan · 09-05-2012 5:12pm

Tox56 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd love it if the IRFU limited everyone to 2 games max as a starter. It'd suit the players, it'd be in line with player welfare and it'd be great for the future.

*everyone except Mike Ross.

Mike Ross especially for me. We need to find an alternative. All it takes is a shoulder injury to potentially ruin an entire season for Ireland!

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 5:41pm

sock puppet wrote: »

Unless Scotland can pull of a shock victory down south I'm pretty sure the AIs won't matter in terms of ranking

We're on 79.85 points at the moment. Samoa are currently approx 5 points behind us and Tonga are approx 4 points. So I think these games are the ones we should have in mind in relation to the next RWC rankings.

Tue 5/6 Pacific Nations Cup Samoa v Tonga, Nagoya
Tue 5/6 Pacific Nations Cup Japan v Fiji, Nagoya
Sun 10/6 Pacific Nations Cup Fiji v Samoa, Tokyo
Sun 10/6 Pacific Nations Cup Japan v Tonga, Tokyo
Sun 17/6 Pacific Nations Cup Japan v Samoa, Tokyo
Sat 23/6 Pacific Nations Cup Fiji v Tonga, Lautoka

If Samoa win all their games by 1-15 points they could get up to approx 77.74 points. If Tonga win all their games by 1-15 points they could get up to approx 78.75 points.

Sat 23/6 Scotland tour Samoa v Scotland, Apia
If Samoa win all their PNC games and this game they could get up to approx 78.06 points.

Argentina play Italy and 2 tests against France at home before the new 4 Nations. Assuming they beat Italy and win the second game against France (Argentina have won their last 4 games against France in Argentina so could well win both games) that would put them on approx 80.88 points. If Argentina lose all their away games and only beat Australia at home that could put them on around 80.85.

If we lose all three tests in NZ it makes no difference to our ranking points.
If Eng lose all their tests against SA they'd be on 82.09.
If Wales lose all their tests against OZ they'd be on 82.75.

So in November we could be looking at the bottom of the table looking like:

6) Fra 81.92
7) Arg 80.85
8) Ire 79.85
9) Tonga 78.75 / Samoa 78.06 (if either of these teams win all their summer games)

Sat 10/11 South Africa tour Ireland v South Africa
Sat 10/11 Australia tour France v Australia,
Sat 10/11 Tonga tour Italy v Tonga, Torino
Sat 10/11 Argentina tour Wales v Argentina
Fri 16/11 Samoa tour Wales v Samoa
Sat 17/11 Argentina tour France v Argentina
Sat 24/11 Samoa tour France v Samoa
Sat 24/11 Tonga tour Scotland v Tonga
Sat 24/11 Argentina tour Ireland v Argentina

If Tonga win both their games it could put them on around 80.05 (again that's assuming they win all their games in the summer).
If Samoa beat Wales but lose to France it could put them on around 79.34 (again that's assuming they win all their games in the summer).
If we lose to SA but beat Arg we could end up on around 79.74. If we lose both games we could be on about 77.12 points.

So our nightmare scenario is either Samoa or Tonga winning alot of games and us losing both our AI games. I'm also assuming that none of the wins are by more than 15 points and I'm not taking into account how Wales, England, and Fra do in the AI against the big 3.

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 5:51pm

ambid wrote: »

Seriously?

I absolutely disagree with you as winning a tournament counts for far more than winning any individual test match. This team should be measuring their success in terms of medals won, and there are no meaningful medals on offer after these matches. It's such a shame these players only have one international tournament medal to their name.

The Six Nations is far more important than any individual test match or test series in my opinion.

I disagree. While there are no medals winning a test series in New Zealand is huge. You could prob count the teams that have done it on your hands, if not your hand, in the 120 years or so of the game.

Medals are great in all but these guys would be legends if they won a test series. Just look at what happened to the Munster team that beat the AB's 30 years ago.

Podge_irl · 09-05-2012 5:57pm

I'm with Ciaran on this one. Our record against the ABs is woeful, and a test match against them in NZ is no "friendly". I think a victory against them is vital in terms of psychology and I would certainly be thrilled with it.

phog · 09-05-2012 6:13pm

I'd love to see Ireland beat the All Blacks and would prefer it to happen in their back yard rather than Ireland, it would be a massive blow for them and a huge boost for Ireland.

molloyjh · 09-05-2012 6:15pm

I'm calling these games nothing games because I have no faith that we will win any of the games and so their ultimate impact on the teams fortunes in terms of seeding is nil. The potential impact of a poor AI series is far higher depending on other results. Therefore they are far more important games. Games against NZ are never really nothing games, but this year, being a seeding year, there are more important games. I'd much rather Fez miss this tour than the AIs.

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 6:34pm

If we were to win one game in the series it would prob be enough for us to finish the year in the top, winning two could put us in the top 4.

Tox56 · 09-05-2012 6:39pm

NZ presumably won't play a full-team all 3 tests, are we going to do the same?

I can see us beating a second-string NZ team with our full team (and as a result not experimenting all series), but is that really the way you would want to finally beat them?

Cpt_Blackbeard · 09-05-2012 6:51pm

Tox56 wrote: »

NZ presumably won't play a full-team all 3 tests, are we going to do the same?

I can see us beating a second-string NZ team with our full team (and as a result not experimenting all series), but is that really the way you would want to finally beat them?

You can only beat what is on front of you. Everyone would obviously prefer to beat a full strength team, but getting our first win over them is huge regardless.

Thorn commented in an interview recently that NZ are very proud of their flawless history against Irish teams and that they are conscious of not wanting to be on the first team that loses to us. We get that 1 win and we get that monkey off our backs.

It may also serve as a wakening call to our group of current and future internationals. A "We are capable of beating the best, so now we can semi-realistically aspire to be the best" type of thing.

Probably reading to much into it, but worst case scenario its another win that greatly boosts our rankings. Best case? We kick on to becoming a top seed contender.

CatFromHue · 09-05-2012 8:47pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I can see us beating a second-string NZ team with our full team (and as a result not experimenting all series), but is that really the way you would want to finally beat them?

Usually we do well in the first of the games against the AB's as it's their first game of the season and are a bit rusty.

By the time the third test comes around the Kiwis may decide to rotate a few players but we'll also be absolutely knackered. While it may or may not be in the plan to rotate players on this tour I'd imagine by the third test it will be a necessity due to injury. At an estimate there will be three enforced changes from the team that starts the first test and that of the third test.

Assuming D'arcy and Ross play the first two tests than the third test will be their 28th and 31st game of their 11 month long season.

twinytwo · 09-05-2012 9:02pm

Tox56 wrote: »

NZ presumably won't play a full-team all 3 tests, are we going to do the same?

I can see us beating a second-string NZ team with our full team (and as a result not experimenting all series), but is that really the way you would want to finally beat them?

rest assured kidney will play full team for all games

thomond2006 · 09-05-2012 10:17pm

Realistically the first test is our best chance of a win over New Zealand, I fear they will only get better as the tests go on.

Carter at 12 might give us a chance, not because Carter is a bad 12 but because his replacement at 10 won't be half as good as he could be. Plus a partnership of Carter and Conrad Smith might mean the Kiwis lack power in the backs, something Ireland typically struggle against. Then again Carter and Smith are such class footballers they'll still find a way around us.

The ABs also have a selection issue at 9. They surely can't pick Weepu, he's been a complete flop at the Blues. Jimmy Cowan is going to Gloucester next season so his ABs career is probably over.

In the pack, Brad Thorn who has huge for them is gone plus Kaino is going to Japan, I don't know if that means he is unavailable for All Black selection. If he is missing that is a big blow. Plus McCaw is still getting back to full fitness with Crusaders, I doubt the rehab was easy given the alleged pain he played through at the World Cup.

Plus Hansen has been talking about playing Kahui at fullback, which would be strange considering Dagg is awesome.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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