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Is this abuse of the Irish Passport?

2

Comments

  • #32
    IrishAm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭IrishAm


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Boo-hoo. You lived in the Nationalist-Republican enclave of West Belfast for 2 years and you're crying to me? I lived in North Belfast for decades and still have a house there, mate. I've been through more than you could possibly imagine, living through the entirety of the troubles on a murder mile.
    Despite that, I have no problem with my Irish Protestant neighbours, am no bigot, and consider it a fantastic development that more and more are accepting Irish nationality and seeing real tangible benefits from it.
    I find your post a classic example of MOPEry.

    No clue what my family went through, as I said.

    I think I should step off, I am too involved in this discussion.

    I have my reasons. And I will be visiting one of them this weekend. In the bone yard.


  • #33
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    bbk wrote: »
    And with the greatest respect to the post you have linked to, I am spending my third year in Belfast and the most trouble I have had on the island of Ireland was in County Kildare for walking down the main street minding my own business.

    That doesn't mean that everyone in County Kildare are out to beat people up for walkin on their streets now does it?

    I think we're in agreement. Irish Am was upset because he was unhappy for a couple of years while he lived in the area of Belfast with the least actual number of Protestants, and presumably all his trauma occurred not in the near or recent past either, yet he's still a bigot. My point was that plenty of us saw an awful lot worse and yet don't seek to discriminate against young people from NI who are simply trying to get on in the world without back-breaking debt, simply because they might be Protestant. In fact, we welcome it because anything that reintroduces them to their Irish nationality and heritage is, to my mind, to be encouraged.


  • #34
    GTE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭GTE


    IrishAm wrote: »
    No clue what my family went through, as I said.

    I think I should step off, I am too involved in this discussion.

    I have my reasons. And I will be visiting one of them this weekend. In the bone yard.

    Yes that is best. We can never understand what you went through and I certainly will never insult anyone by saying I do, however you must realise how you come off with your comments as to the a majority of people I know, they come off as very general. Too general for my experiences up here.


  • #35
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    IrishAm wrote: »
    No clue what my family went through, as I said.
    I think I should step off, I am too involved in this discussion.
    I have my reasons. And I will be visiting one of them this weekend. In the bone yard.

    And you've little clue what others have been through either. This is the problem with making emotional appeals. Sometimes you get, pardon the pun, outgunned.
    I could take you around entire plots of cemeteries. I don't think any of that is positive or necessary.
    My best suggestion to you is to remember that the past is the past, and that 17 and 18 year olds coming out of Methody or BRA looking to go to Strathclyde or Heriot Watt didn't kill anyone.


  • #36
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    bbk wrote: »
    Yes that is best. We can never understand what you went through and I certainly will never insult anyone by saying I do, however you must realise how you come off with your comments as to the a majority of people I know, they come off as very general. Too general for my experiences up here.

    I have to say I agree with the generality of most people's comments. The south knew nothing of what happened to many in the north.


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  • #37
    GTE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭GTE


    Pity I want to study in England next. This does raise more questions about their exact policy on EU students. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    EDIT:
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I have to say I agree with the generality of most people's comments. The south knew nothing of what happened to many in the north.

    Absolutely, however it must be said I am talking from a more recent standpoint as I am a student with no direct links to the very bad times, of which I know little of as you say and which I can admit.

    The recent point I made is why I do not accept the generalisations you speak of as I am talking about people of my own age bracket and actually, people of a relatively older one too. This should be made clear I think, we all could very well speaking of experience with completely different generations and I feel no generation should be tarnished by the acts of their predecessors, let them tarnish them selves.


  • #38
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Indeed, Ian Paisley among them. But as a people they remain largely divorced by the border and history of partition from their Irish heritage and roots, which they have erroneously associated with their Catholic neighbours only. If accepting a passport makes them think about their being Irish a bit more, I'm extremely in favour.

    agreed...i worked in belfast for quite a bit of the 1980's.....i stayed in east belfast, although i am a dublin..(catholic by birth)..i made some great friends there....

    my last job there was...repairing the blown up escalators in castle court shopping centre....


  • #39
    stoneill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,607 ✭✭✭stoneill


    It's not an abuse of the Irish passport - they are entitled to it.
    It does seem to be an abuse of the college fee system in Scotland.


  • #40
    IrishAm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭IrishAm


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    And you've little clue what others have been through either. This is the problem with making emotional appeals. Sometimes you get, pardon the pun, outgunned.
    I could take you around entire plots of cemeteries. I don't think any of that is positive or necessary.
    My best suggestion to you is to remember that the past is the past, and that 17 and 18 year olds coming out of Methody or BRA looking to go to Strathclyde or Heriot Watt didn't kill anyone.

    Oh, sorry Cave. I didnt realise you were from the six. Apologies.

    I will PM you, if I may.............


  • #41
    IrishAm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭IrishAm


    golden lane wrote: »
    agreed...i worked in belfast for quite a bit of the 1980's.....i stayed in east belfast, although i am a dublin..(catholic by birth)..i made some great friends there....

    my last job there was...repairing the blown up escalators in castle court shopping centre....

    I think its wise if you name the shopping centre and give the reason why the Provos targeted it.


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  • #42
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    IrishAm wrote: »
    Oh, sorry Cave. I didnt realise you were from the six. Apologies.

    I will PM you, if I may.............

    Please do, mate. I don't like to see anyone hurting.


  • #43
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    IrishAm wrote: »
    I think its wise if you name the shopping centre and give the reason why the Provos targeted it.


    castle court as i am aware.....but somebody mentioned it was something else......my interest was to get my task done....and go home....

    there was some other incidents while i was there.....


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well if the government of the republic offer it to them without asking too many questions about their allegiances (ie loyalties) then you can't exactly fault the folks who take them up on the offer.

    If you offer citizenship to all who were born within the 32 counties then so be it, especially if you claim sovereignty over them (which I don't believe "we" as a republic do anymore anyway). If the people who live in the six who feel no attachment to the republic have this offer put upon them without ever even asking for it, then you can hardly blame them for it being available, can you?

    If the Norwegian government said to the people of Ireland - "Lads, we were just thinking about this, and we remembered that we were the ones who built Waterford and Limerick, and whatever. So anyone fancy a Norwegian passport? Come back and be part of our country if you want. There might even be a few bob from that Corrib gas field in it for you!"

    Would ya take it?


  • #45
    missroro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13 ✭missroro


    up the irish...." tiocfaidh ar la"


  • #46
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Deleted User wrote: »

    If the Norwegian government said to the people of Ireland - "Lads, we were just thinking about this, and we remembered that we were the ones who built Waterford and Limerick, and whatever. So anyone fancy a Norwegian passport? Come back and be part of our country if you want. There might even be a few bob from that Corrib gas field in it for you!"

    Would ya take it?

    No, but then again I'm a nationalist. I could see why others might. Principles don't put bread on the table, after all.
    But this is a different sityeeashun. These people are Irish. They also feel an affinity to Britain, and are as a result of the opinion of political leaders and the people of both Britain and Ireland, entitled to dual nationality as they choose.
    I've had a British passport in the past, but travel exclusively on an Irish one now. I acknowledge a British influence and involvement in who I am, culturally, politically and educationally. It would be a denial of reality not to.
    I know that this is, as someone already said, more of an abuse of the Scottish fees system than it is of the Irish passport. Nevertheless, I can only see it as a good thing, as it may help a young generation of the province's brightest Protestants to think a little about to what extent and in what ways they might be Irish, and how that might be of benefit to them.


  • #47
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    No, but then again I'm a nationalist. I could see why others might. Principles don't put bread on the table, after all.
    But this is a different sityeeashun. These people are Irish. They also feel an affinity to Britain, and are as a result of the opinion of political leaders and the people of both Britain and Ireland, entitled to dual nationality as they choose.
    I've had a British passport in the past, but travel exclusively on an Irish one now. I acknowledge a British influence and involvement in who I am, culturally, politically and educationally. It would be a denial of reality not to.
    I know that this is, as someone already said, more of an abuse of the Scottish fees system than it is of the Irish passport. Nevertheless, I can only see it as a good thing, as it may help a young generation of the province's brightest Protestants to think a little about to what extent and in what ways they might be Irish, and how that might be of benefit to them.

    sityeeashun......don't know why, but you reminded me of an old friend from the sixties......from ardoyne.....


  • #48
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    golden lane wrote: »
    sityeeashun......don't know why, but you reminded me of an old friend from the sixties......from ardoyne.....

    Not that old, but I know Ardoyne well.


  • #49
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Not that old, but I know Ardoyne well.


    it would have changed a lot since then.....i went to belfast last september for a few day......just kept getting lost, driving around was a nightmare....mainly because i was thinking i knew where i was going....lots of great change.....


  • #50
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    golden lane wrote: »
    it would have changed a lot since then.....i went to belfast last september for a few day......just kept getting lost, driving around was a nightmare....mainly because i was thinking i knew where i was going....lots of great change.....

    One upside to the bombing campaign is that it made it possible to build a proper motorway and road system right through the city, and create lots of excellent new buildings.
    It's about the only upside, mind you.


  • #51
    Princess Peach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,698 ✭✭✭✭Princess Peach


    I don't think much of it at all. They are getting it to use it to their advantage, no harm done really.

    I know a good few foreign people who have Irish parents or grandparents and apply for an Irish passport. Their main reason to get it is to gain access to the EU and its labour market.

    Fair play really. Gotta take every opportunity you can in life to get ahead. I know if I qualified for a passport of a country that could be beneficial to me I'd get it, regardless of my "loyalty" or whatever to the country.


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  • #52
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    One upside to the bombing campaign is that it made it possible to build a proper motorway and road system right through the city, and create lots of excellent new buildings.
    It's about the only upside, mind you.

    well for me, i couldn't find short strand.......i am getting old now....just had to see the city, maybe for the last time.....i have always liked belfast....even during it's terrible problems....

    in 1989...i did a job in downpatrick...but stayed in belfast....and i used to pick up the local man in the falls road every morning and take him home at night....

    he would reassure me it was ok....as i drove an english registered car.....


  • #53
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    golden lane wrote: »
    well for me, i couldn't find short strand.......i am getting old now....just had to see the city, maybe for the last time.....i have always liked belfast....even during it's terrible problems....

    in 1989...i did a job in downpatrick...but stayed in belfast....and i used to pick up the local man in the falls road every morning and take him home at night....

    he would reassure me it was ok....as i drove an english registered car.....

    Sounds right. The hate was always largely internal. Even with the British Army, it was mainly only certain groups (stand up Para scum) who attracted the ire of the locals. And the few tourists who ever made it there during the bad days were treated like royalty.
    For sure, Southerners might have got the eye of suspicion from Loyalists. But even that generally was all it was.
    As for Short Strand, bottom of the Ormeau. Same place it ever was!
    And pop up again soon. It's a better place by the day.


  • #54
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    In fact, we welcome it because anything that reintroduces them to their Irish nationality and heritage is, to my mind, to be encouraged.

    On paper, that sounds great. I too am all for people from both sides of the cultural and political divide embracing common elements of Irishness. It can't but lead to mutual empathy and understanding between the 2 communities.

    But if someone from a Unionist/Protestant background shows up at the Irish Embassy/Consulate, ponies up a birth cert to get an Irish passport, gets said Irish passport, uses said Irish passport to bypass paying university fees in Scotland, & then fecks off to Scotland to begin their university education, that shows damm all commitment to "getting reintroduced to their Irish nationality and heritage" imo. If they were using their new found Irishness to get a free ride down South, ok then. But to use it in main land UK, that is just taking the piss.

    All that displays to me is a commitment to getting a free ride from the UK educational system, by exploiting red tape loop holes. It doesn't have anything to do with any deeply felt feelings about being Irish. I don't really expect to see these people at the Fleadh Ceol, or going on Irish language courses in the Connemara Gaeltacht any time soon. Do you?


  • #55
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Sounds right. The hate was always largely internal. Even with the British Army, it was mainly only certain groups (stand up Para scum) who attracted the ire of the locals. And the few tourists who ever made it there during the bad days were treated like royalty.
    For sure, Southerners might have got the eye of suspicion from Loyalists. But even that generally was all it was.
    As for Short Strand, bottom of the Ormeau. Same place it ever was!
    And pop up again soon. It's a better place by the day.


    i will find it next time.....no markets there confused me.....

    yes, i have sat drinking in an east belfast hotel....and been approached by loyalist, attracted by my dub accent....i have had the hate tirade straight into my face......but that was a rare occasion.....

    and i admire all you people, i am impressed how life went on.......be proud of yourself.......the friendliest city in the world....


  • #56
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    ProudDUB wrote: »
    On paper, that sounds great. I too am all for people from both sides of the cultural and political divide embracing common elements of Irishness. It can't but lead to mutual empathy and understanding between the 2 communities, right? Yeah, ok, I get that.

    Agreed.
    ProudDUB wrote: »
    But if someone from a Unionist/Protestant background shows up at the Irish Embassy/Consulate, ponies up a birth cert to get an Irish passport, gets said Irish passport & using said Irish passport to bypass paying university fees in Scotland, & then fecks off to Scotland to begin their university education, that shows damm all commitment to "getting reintroduced to their Irish nationality and heritage" imo.

    No, it would be a tad mercenary. But Ireland loses out nothing from the exchange. And over the course of a decade, as they look at the harp on their passport every time they travel, it might provoke some thought about the extent to which they are Irish. These are young people, some of the brightest, going to university. I suspect it would make them think a little, which is no bad thing.
    ProudDUB wrote: »
    All that displays to me is a commitment to getting a free ride from the UK educational system, by exploiting red tape loop holes. It doesn't have anything to do with any deeply felt feelings about being Irish. I don't really expect to see them at the Fleadh Ceol, or going on Irish language courses in the Connemara Gaeltacht any time soon !

    Maybe not. I've one NI Protestant friend who was resident in Dublin for two decades before he could bring himself to utter the fact that he was in any way, shape or form Irish. The cultural lie (that they aren't Irish, or that Irish culture is not theirs also) has been ingrained deeply. Anything that might dislodge it is no bad thing in my opinion.


  • #57
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    golden lane wrote: »
    i will find it next time.....no markets there confused me.....

    Aye, just Georges left and it's mostly fruit and coffee shops. I'm never near it.
    golden lane wrote: »
    yes, i have sat drinking in an east belfast hotel....and been approached by loyalist, attracted by my dub accent....i have had the hate tirade straight into my face......but that was a rare occasion.....

    Don't think it would happen now. Too much of the East Belfast is owned by Dubliners!
    golden lane wrote: »
    and i admire all you people, i am impressed how life went on.......be proud of yourself.......the friendliest city in the world....

    I'm proud we finally found a way to get beyond the hate. And while it is a friendly city, with its own unique dark humour, I spend most of my time these days in what really is the friendliest city in the world, which is Dublin.


  • #58
    golden lane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Aye, just Georges left and it's mostly fruit and coffee shops. I'm never near it.



    Don't think it would happen now. Too much of the East Belfast is owned by Dubliners!



    I'm proud we finally found a way to get beyond the hate. And while it is a friendly city, with its own unique dark humour, I spend most of my time these days in what really is the friendliest city in the world, which is Dublin.

    i left dublin 52 years ago.....and have spent more time in ni...than i have back in dublin........but i went there last year for a few days...great time.....

    i am origionally from just beside dublin castle...golden lane, as my username shows.....i have got no family there now...


  • #59
    IrishAm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭IrishAm


    Charming people, these "new Irish" citizens.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/missfitz/781359716/

    The best idea Sinn Fein ever came up with was their repatriation policy in the 80s.

    Repatriate, repatriate, repatriate.

    These people do not deserve to be called Irish.


  • #60
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,339 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    woodoo wrote: »
    They could be at a 12th bonfire cheering on the burning of the Irish flag one day and then off to University in Glasgow with an Irish passport the next to get free fees.

    I don't know why people get upset by burning the flag. This summer, our sports stars will be dragging the flag around in the muck, should they win anything, and patriotic fans will be defacing the flag with the names of soccer clubs, native and foreign. Sure, even the guy taking down the flag at the local shopping centre drags in on the ground in the rain, before rolling it up and dumping it in a trolley.

    It's never supposed to touch the ground, or have anything written on it. If these simple rules aren't observed why should we care if others want to burn it?


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  • #61
    IrishAm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭IrishAm


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I don't know why people get upset by burning the flag. This summer, our sports stars will be dragging the flag around in the muck, should they win anything, and patriotic fans will be defacing the flag with the names of soccer clubs, native and foreign. Sure, even the guy taking down the flag at the local shopping centre drags in on the ground in the rain, before rolling it up and dumping it in a trolley.

    It's never supposed to touch the ground, or have anything written on it. If these simple rules aren't observed why should we care if others want to burn it?

    The Irish tri-colour is just a piece of cloth.

    But when people burn it, especially when they have an ulterior motive behind it, it grates me.

    It grates me deeply.

    I wish these people a happy and prosperous life in their homeland. Scotland, isnt it?

    Repatriate them all.


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