We haven't had a good Public Sector bashing thread in ages

mbiking123 · 29-04-2012 03:58PM

woodoo wrote: »

But i thought the public sector were paid 49% more than the private sector?

Ya, its strange cause public sector was behind private sector in terms of pay during boom and the private sector did not complain, now its the other way around, and the that applies to complaint too. Guess the complainers here are happy once there are doing better. Irish people must pay back bank debt, bank bond holders etc and people are saying that this is the fault of public sector here on boards.ie

Some people in the private sector get free parking - but not all
Some people in the public sector get free parking - but not all
Some people in private sector fly first class
FAS flew first class but they are semi-state !
Politicans fly first class and they are public sector, so if people want to sack these public sector workers who fly first class - well ya have your chance in about 4 years time

smelly sock · 30-04-2012 03:21PM

I am a clerical officer that earns 445 a week after tax. I have a mortgage of 900 per month. I have all the bills that private sector workers have and I also have a disabled child and I don't get DCA.

Please stop having a go at me asking me to take a pay cut. I tokk a job during the good times that wasn't paid as much as private sector because of the security. It was there for everyone to apply for. GET YOUR HAND OUT OF MY POCKET!!

Pappa Charlie · 30-04-2012 04:31PM

micropig wrote: »

I don't doubt that there is a shortage on the front line, more money should go hiring more of these and remove a lot of the 'managers'

Any idea, what's the craic with doctors & the medical card claiming?

Also consultants have too much power in this country, the government can't seem to stand up to them and sort it out

Care to share your profession with us, I love how people hide behind the private sector banner without revealing their background and lash out at named public sector professions mainly with ignorance and misinformation, I deal with private sector workers everyday and some are excellent but my god they have more than their fair share of riff raft as well and they can be extremely unprofessional and many overpaid, time to cop on and stop fooling yourself, there are wasters in all sectors. There are also excellent people in both. The reason many private sector jobs were lost was because the were unsustainable when the pressure was applied and were built on a false economy. You now just want another sector of workers (public) to take your share of the cuts on their shoulder. I know many private sector workers who were only hit in their pay when the social charge was applied but they wont shout about that!

micropig · 30-04-2012 06:58PM

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

I deal with private sector workers everyday and some are excellent but my god they have more than their fair share of riff raft as well and they can be extremely unprofessional and many overpaid, time to cop on and stop fooling yourself, there are wasters in all sectors. There are also excellent people in both.

I never said the private sector don't 'have more than their fair share of riff raft as well and they can be extremely unprofessional and many overpaid'

Do you think the private sector have as many?

Any links to the excellent departments? (A lot of the government websites are outdated and not a lot of current information available, if I wanted information from 2010, I be in luck). I'll send them letters of praise and constantly defend them here on boards.

mbiking123 · 01-05-2012 04:37PM

micropig wrote: »

I never said the private sector don't 'have more than their fair share of riff raft as well and they can be extremely unprofessional and many overpaid'

Do you think the private sector have as many?

Any links to the excellent departments? (A lot of the government websites are outdated and not a lot of current information available, if I wanted information from 2010, I be in luck). I'll send them letters of praise and constantly defend them here on boards.

http://www.theirelandinstitute.com/citizen/c04-burke-page.html

Explanations of the Crisis
Both the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael-Labour governments have set out to severely curb the spending of the public sector. A glance at any of the leading newspapers or other media demonstrates that there is an overwhelming consensus that public spending must be cut. Implicitly, and often explicitly, an unsustainable level of public spending is held to be the cause of the current crisis.
That this nonsense has such traction in the public debate tells us more about the society in which that debate is being conducted than about the economy itself. Prior to the crisis, the level of public spending was 36.7 per cent of GDP in 2007, nearly 10 percentage points lower than the euro area average of 46 per cent.1
To understand the Irish crisis, it is necessary to identify the specific combination of those global features that apply to the Irish economy and society.
It is frequently argued that this is a false measure of spending as it includes the inflated export sector. Like so much of the debate, this assumes the Irish economy is unique in having a sizeable trade surplus. This is not correct. If we adjust for the Gross National Product (GNP) measure, Irish public spending was 40.6 per cent in 2007. But other countries, such as Germany and the Netherlands, also have sizeable external sectors. On the GNP measure, their public spending in 2007 was 47.1 per cent and 50 per cent respectively. Neither feels constrained to take the axe to public services in the way that has been done by successive Dublin governments.
Outside of government and the supporters of ‘austerity’ measures, the principal explanation of the crisis finds its origins in the huge losses of the private banks that have now been socialised by the Dublin government. Alongside this, there is the flow of cheap money from Europe, widespread greed, lack of regulation, and a system of cronyism and corruption (principally by Fianna Fáil and the developers). One of the more lucid exponents of this argument is Fintan O’Toole.
While all of these undoubtedly occurred and are part of the story, none of them are new, and, excepting different names for some of the principal actors, none of them are unique to this society. The crisis was a global one. To understand the Irish crisis, it is necessary to identify the specific combination of those global features that apply to the Irish economy and society.

Pappa Charlie · 01-05-2012 09:58PM

micropig wrote: »

I never said the private sector don't 'have more than their fair share of riff raft as well and they can be extremely unprofessional and many overpaid'

Do you think the private sector have as many?

Any links to the excellent departments? (A lot of the government websites are outdated and not a lot of current information available, if I wanted information from 2010, I be in luck). I'll send them letters of praise and constantly defend them here on boards.

Yes I think they have as many wasters and I note you avoided answering my question on your profession which i expected to be honest. if your arguement is based on seeing an outdated website somewhere then its pretty scientific alright!

micropig · 01-05-2012 10:03PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

http://www.theirelandinstitute.com/citizen/c04-burke-page.html

Explanations of the Crisis
Both the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael-Labour governments have set out to severely curb the spe..................... is necessary to identify the specific combination of those global features that apply to the Irish economy and society.

Bit of a republican biased there

Throughout all of this work, republican ideas about active citizenship and the common good, freedom, equality, and solidarity will inform the argument and discussion.

Editor
Finbar Cullen

But any how, The Banks, caused the banking crises, no way.

Fact is country is broke and can not afford the surplus

Are the banks also the blame for the HSE mess?

Pappa Charlie wrote: »

Yes I think they have as many wasters and I note you avoided answering my question on your profession which i expected to be honest. if your arguement is based on seeing an outdated website somewhere then its pretty scientific alright!

I'm was looking for 2 things and neither was a link to an outdated website:

What I was looking for was:

a) Links to show an excellent efficient sector of the public service

and

b) A government website which had current information, as many are outdated

Neither was provided

comeback_kid · 01-05-2012 10:18PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

Ya, its strange cause public sector was behind private sector in terms of pay during boom and the private sector did not complain, now its the other way around, and the that applies to complaint too. Guess the complainers here are happy once there are doing better. Irish people must pay back bank debt, bank bond holders etc and people are saying that this is the fault of public sector here on boards.ie

Some people in the private sector get free parking - but not all
Some people in the public sector get free parking - but not all
Some people in private sector fly first class
FAS flew first class but they are semi-state !
Politicans fly first class and they are public sector, so if people want to sack these public sector workers who fly first class - well ya have your chance in about 4 years time

actually the public sector was ahead of the private sector on average since 1998 through the boom

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Vizzy · 01-05-2012 10:22PM

comeback_kid wrote: »

actually the public sector was ahead of the private sector on average since 1998 through the boom

I don't think even Micropig would come up with a statement like that so I ask the obvious

Link or GTFO

comeback_kid · 01-05-2012 10:25PM

Vizzy wrote: »

I don't think even Micropig would come up with a statement like that so I ask the obvious

Link or GTFO

are you saying my statement is incorrect , ive provided a link for public sector earnings , im presently looking for one which shows private sector earnings

micropig · 01-05-2012 10:28PM

comeback_kid wrote: »

actually the public sector was ahead of the private sector on average since 1998 through the boom

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

In Oct 2009 :

Irish Public Sector average weekly earnings up 3.2% in year to June 2009; Jobs down 2,700 since Q2 2008 compared with 209,000 in private sector...

This compares to a rise of 3.2% in the year to March 2008. Weekly earnings for the Civil Service rose by 4.7% (from €889.82 to €931.46)

There is a very clear and informative graph in that link

Paddy Samurai · 01-05-2012 10:36PM

micropig wrote: »

Also consultants have too much power in this country, the government can't seem to stand up to them and sort it out

Consultants engaged in private practice have a vested interest in the public health sector not working.If the the public health sector works ,then you don't need to pay for private.

comeback_kid · 01-05-2012 10:39PM

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Consultants engaged in private practice have a vested interest in the public health sector not working.If the the public health sector works ,then you don't need to pay for private.

the biggest problem ( for patients ) is that the consultant sector is sheltered , numbers are capped so as to protect incomes , its the same in the GP sector

MonkeyTennis · 01-05-2012 10:58PM

public sector people do different things than private sector. Is it always fair to compare?

Theres a large amount of private sector work that is relatively unskilled.

I say this having worked in pubs, cafes shops factories etc in the past so dont bite my head off

micropig · 01-05-2012 11:03PM

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

public sector people do different things than private sector. Is it always fair to compare?

Theres a large amount of private sector work that is relatively unskilled.

I say this having worked in pubs, cafes shops factories etc in the past so dont bite my head off

Is processing medical cards a highly skilled area?

K-9 · 01-05-2012 11:07PM

micropig wrote: »

In Oct 2009 :

Irish Public Sector average weekly earnings up 3.2% in year to June 2009; Jobs down 2,700 since Q2 2008 compared with 209,000 in private sector...

This compares to a rise of 3.2% in the year to March 2008. Weekly earnings for the Civil Service rose by 4.7% (from €889.82 to €931.46)

There is a very clear and informative graph in that link

Unsurprisingly nothing to do with 1998 on levels.

This article relates to benchmarking and gives comparisons back to the 90's:

http://www.finfacts.com/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#The_Sham_Benchmarking_System

Benchmarking is a rather stupid concept, well the way it was implemented here anyway, IMO.

When you take in the big increase in PS numbers and add in benchmarking which isn't a one off payment as some seem to think, it shows the huge increase in the pay bill. Remember pay increases were also on benchmarking awards.

Together with awarding big welfare increases, 2 big reasons for the austerity we are having. Another was having low tax rates on these high wages, something everybody got and in 2007 anyway, 90% of the vote agreed to in some form or another.

micropig · 01-05-2012 11:16PM

K-9 wrote: »

Unsurprisingly nothing to do with 1998 on levels.

I'll use your link so

The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13 per cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001. The researchers also discovered that the size of this margin (the public sector premium) in 2001 was not significantly different from what it had been in 1994, suggesting that pay increases in the public sector had kept pace with the private sector throughout the Celtic Tiger period.

Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

A particularly striking finding was that the estimate of the public sector premium for Ireland was more than twice as large as the available estimates for other countries.

MonkeyTennis · 01-05-2012 11:17PM

micropig wrote: »

Is processing medical cards a highly skilled area?

Nope. No more than a clerk in a video shop. But whats your point?

mbiking123 · 01-05-2012 11:26PM

comeback_kid wrote: »

actually the public sector was ahead of the private sector on average since 1998 through the boom

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

It gives a breakdown of average pay, but no comparison

'Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings'

A good friend of mine who is a civil engineer and had to emmigrate said himself he spent years studying to become qualified and there was guys on building sites in Ireland during the boom working machinery with less education getting paid more than he was. I dont see how anyone can say that public sector in boom was overpaid when people on buildings getting paid 70,000 a year. Yes these people I refer had there City and Guilds, these are the people who cant get work however its not the fault of public sector.

I can only dream of getting paid 70,000 a year and for some it was standard pay at the age of 24 years of age - in private sector !

mbiking123 · 01-05-2012 11:28PM

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Nope. No more than a clerk in a video shop. But whats your point?

Big difference between wrongly givin somebody a medical card or not given one compared to a DVD/Video

micropig · 01-05-2012 11:30PM

smelly sock wrote: »

I am a clerical officer that earns 445 a week after tax.

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

Nope. No more than a clerk in a video shop. But whats your point?

Let's compare their wages

Extra Vision Store Assistant
Salary:Earn from €18,252 – €20,077 per annum includes bonus. Gross
You must have: Exceptional customer service skills
The ability to supervise & motivate a team of people

Assistant Manager
Salary: Earn from €21,415 – €23,570 per annum includes bonus. Gross

Store Managers
Responsible to: The District Manager
Role Summary: The role is drive the business to meet and exceed store targets and operation standards by taking ownership of your store, developing your team and leading by example.
Salary: Earn from €21,415 – €29,870 per annum includes bonus. Gross

All the above have to pay tax on that

Clerical Officer Civil Service
445*52 = €23140 Net

How much before tax?

comeback_kid · 01-05-2012 11:30PM

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

public sector people do different things than private sector. Is it always fair to compare?

Theres a large amount of private sector work that is relatively unskilled.

I say this having worked in pubs, cafes shops factories etc in the past so dont bite my head off

clerical officers require around the same level of skill as an office receptionist or low level secretary , answering phones , posting letters , photocoppying documents , yet the wages for clerical officers are much higher

its probabley best however to benchmark public sector pay to thier counterparts in the uk

mbiking123 · 01-05-2012 11:30PM

K-9 wrote: »

Unsurprisingly nothing to do with 1998 on levels.

This article relates to benchmarking and gives comparisons back to the 90's:

http://www.finfacts.com/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#The_Sham_Benchmarking_System

Benchmarking is a rather stupid concept, well the way it was implemented here anyway, IMO.

When you take in the big increase in PS numbers and add in benchmarking which isn't a one off payment as some seem to think, it shows the huge increase in the pay bill. Remember pay increases were also on benchmarking awards.

Together with awarding big welfare increases, 2 big reasons for the austerity we are having. Another was having low tax rates on these high wages, something everybody got and in 2007 anyway, 90% of the vote agreed to in some form or another.

No its the banks is the big reason - main reason

comeback_kid · 01-05-2012 11:33PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

It gives a breakdown of average pay, but no comparison

'Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings'

A good friend of mine who is a civil engineer and had to emmigrate said himself he spent years studying to become qualified and there was guys on building sites in Ireland during the boom working machinery with less education getting paid more than he was. I dont see how anyone can say that public sector in boom was overpaid when people on buildings getting paid 70,000 a year. Yes these people I refer had there City and Guilds, these are the people who cant get work however its not the fault of public sector.

I can only dream of getting paid 70,000 a year and for some it was standard pay at the age of 24 years of age - in private sector !

labourers on building sites were earning around a grand per week , skilled tradesmen might have been earning up to 1300 per week but that would be the top , none of those people will ever see that kind of a wage again , you can get tradesmen for small money today , most are on the scrap heap now , construction is a bit of an anomoly , beit new york , london , sydney , construction boom wages levels are usually short

comeback_kid · 01-05-2012 11:37PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

No its the banks is the big reason - main reason

the banks are the reason we required a bailout , the deficit would still be an issue as revenue from construction collapsed , the banking crisis compounded our problems but the likes of sinn fein are wrong in saying the banks is the sole cause of austerity

mbiking123 · 01-05-2012 11:38PM

micropig wrote: »

Let's compare their wages

Extra Vision Store Assistant
Salary:Earn from €18,252 – €20,077 per annum includes bonus. Gross
You must have: Exceptional customer service skills
The ability to supervise & motivate a team of people

Assistant Manager
Salary: Earn from €21,415 – €23,570 per annum includes bonus. Gross

Store Managers
Responsible to: The District Manager
Role Summary: The role is drive the business to meet and exceed store targets and operation standards by taking ownership of your store, developing your team and leading by example.
Salary: Earn from €21,415 – €29,870 per annum includes bonus. Gross

All the above have to pay tax on that

Clerical Officer Civil Service
445*52 = €23140 Net

How much before tax?

Ok first of all, a clerical officer starts on a wage below the net figure you gave

Whats the bonus ? none for a clerical officer

The reason why clerical officers are paid slightly higher is to attract a better qualified/educated person. Many CO that I know have a third level education. Alot of low paid private sector jobs are unable to attract Irish workers and end up that only foreign workers will do them. Currently well paid jobs in private sector in IT, CISCO in Galway recently announced 100 new jobs which will be well paid jobs. In the end its all about if people want your skill set. If you have Junior Cert then you will end up in a lower paid job, better education then the better job. Its all about competing for those jobs

MonkeyTennis · 01-05-2012 11:40PM

micropig wrote: »

Let's compare their wages

Extra Vision Store Assistant
Salary:Earn from €18,252 – €20,077 per annum includes bonus. Gross
You must have: Exceptional customer service skills
The ability to supervise & motivate a team of people

Assistant Manager
Salary: Earn from €21,415 – €23,570 per annum includes bonus. Gross

Store Managers
Responsible to: The District Manager
Role Summary: The role is drive the business to meet and exceed store targets and operation standards by taking ownership of your store, developing your team and leading by example.
Salary: Earn from €21,415 – €29,870 per annum includes bonus. Gross

All the above have to pay tax on that

Clerical Officer Civil Service
445*52 = €23140 Net

How much before tax?

again..whats your point in relation to my question?

You were comparing the average wages on public sector to private sector and i put it to you that this group of people do not do the same work.

micropig · 01-05-2012 11:41PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

No its the banks is the big reason - main reason

Financial Regulator

What where these guys doing?

I'm not defending the banks, but nobody was bothering to regulate them

mbiking123 · 01-05-2012 11:41PM

comeback_kid wrote: »

the banks are the reason we required a bailout , the deficit would still be an issue as revenue from construction collapsed , the banking crisis compounded our problems but the likes of sinn fein are wrong in saying the banks is the sole cause of austerity

ya other reasons are paying back bond holders etc etc

When a guy ona building site is paid 70,000 a year why would they want to work in a video shop or factor on 20,000 or even average industrial wage of 39,000 (during boom)

golden lane · 01-05-2012 11:42PM

comeback_kid wrote: »

clerical officers require around the same level of skill as an office receptionist or low level secretary , answering phones , posting letters , photocoppying documents , yet the wages for clerical officers are much higher

its probabley best however to benchmark public sector pay to thier counterparts in the uk

tio compare with the uk....not a good idea....when the euro goes up or down, that can have a big distortion.....

should be do in a similar uero country......

plus perks and pensions may differ.......

i think the euro started off about...68p to the pound..it is higher now...

so comparing to the uk, they would have got a very big rise...

and also the tax insurance difference and pensions contribution...

We haven't had a good Public Sector bashing thread in ages

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