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Do private schools have a place in society?

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    #332
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    secretambition wrote: »
    If people seriously want no funding for private schools, then some element of the school fees should be written off against tax for parents in acknowledgement of the fact that they are unburdening the state system. Otherwise a parent of a child in a private school is paying a huge amount for their childs education plus a contribution towards some other kid they've never met, when said childs parent is contributing nothing to theirs.

    The taxpayers of this country are currently paying towards state funding of private school education despite many of them not being able to avail of it. People who can afford private school have a choice to send their children to public or private schools. A lot of people havent the choice to send their kids to private yet they fund it in part.


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    #333
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    The taxpayers of this country are currently paying towards state funding of private school education despite many of them not being able to avail of it. People who can afford private school have a choice to send their children to public or private schools. A lot of people havent the choice to send their kids to private yet they fund it in part.

    By that logic you should never fund anything that everyone cannot afford. Don't build a motorway because I can't afford a car.

    The taxpayers who can't afford private are taking more of the pot proportionately, because they take proportionately more per child. Therefore, the argument that they are funding is disingenuous. Parents of children in private schools are funding them much much more.


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    #334
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    secretambition wrote: »
    By that logic you should never fund anything that everyone cannot afford. Don't build a motorway because I can't afford a car.

    Only 6% of the population can or will be able to avail of a car? Your talking about childrens education which is a right. Completely different to a car.


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    #335
    SChique00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭SChique00


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Is a two tier system right or wrong for education? Is it acceptable that all taxpayers pay for state funding of a two teir system despite only a small percentage of the population availing of it?

    Only a small percentage avail of it because only a small percentage pay extra for it. o.O


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    #336
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Only 6% of the population can or will be able to avail of a car? Your talking about childrens education which is a right. Completely different to a car.

    Way more than 6% could afford private schools. It's choices. They don't want to pay for what they can get for free in many cases. That's their right.


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    #337
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    SChique00 wrote: »
    Only a small percentage avail of it because only a small percentage can pay extra for it. o.O

    FYP


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    #338
    SChique00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭SChique00


    To echo what others have said here, the parents of fee-paying schoolchildren pay taxes just as much as the parents of state schoolchildren, on top of the fees which they pay to benefit their school collectively through building projects and equipment (almost none of this is subsidised by the government). These taxes majoratively benefit children in public schools, so could you not agree that it's fair for the government to pay for the teachers alone, as a sort of "cashback" for the parents who contribute towards the public system, despite not using it themselves?
    If you look at it theoretically, parents of private schoolchildren are really partly paying for an extra child to remain in the education system.


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    #339
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    You can attend a private school for about €5000 a year. Are you saying that only 6% of people have that spare per year? Or is it more likely that they make choices - want to go on holidays, do up the house, change the car, just save?


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    #340
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    secretambition wrote: »
    Way more than 6% could afford private schools. It's choices. They don't want to pay for what they can get for free in many cases. That's their right.

    Every single child has the right to education. A lot of people in this country can barely afford to pay bills or put food on the table and your saying private school is simply a matter of choices? Its not. Its not the right of them to avail of something which only a relativly few can afford yet everyone pays towards.


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    #341
    SChique00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭SChique00


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    College attendence should be one hundred per cent based on intelligence and hard work not what school you attend.

    But this is what it's already based upon? Points are constantly being pushed up by colleges due to the demand for places from overseas students and an increasing number of mature students, so current LC students are not guaranteed a place in any college, regardless of what school you attend. So don't try and justify this incredible notion of private school students "buying" places in colleges and universities, or being granted a place based on the prestige of whatever school they attended - they have to earn their places just like any other applicants.


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    #342
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    secretambition wrote: »
    You can attend a private school for about €5000 a year. Are you saying that only 6% of people have that spare per year? Or is it more likely that they make choices - want to go on holidays, do up the house, change the car, just save?

    No in fact I would say a lot more than six percent could afford 10 thousand plus a year. Like american private schools. Reduce state funding like a lot of american private schools and there will end the debate about private school funding.


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    #343
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Every single child has the right to education. A lot of people in this country can barely afford to pay bills or put food on the table and your saying private school is simply a matter of choices? Its not. Its not the right of them to avail of something which only a relativly few can afford yet everyone pays towards.

    I said that for more than 6% (which you claim) it is a choice, of course not for everyone. I believe people are entitled to do the best for their children if they can afford to and the states obligation is to provide a good standard for everyone. If you can pay more and want to fine. That shouldn't mean you get nothing from the state for your tax.


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    #344
    SChique00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭SChique00


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Every single child has the right to education. A lot of people in this country can barely afford to pay bills or put food on the table and your saying private school is simply a matter of choices? Its not. Its not the right of them to avail of something which only a relatively few can afford yet everyone pays towards.

    Of course every child has the right to an education, this goes without saying. It is the sole discretion of the parent as to where their child gets their education. Everyone learns the same material from the same teaching methods regardless of where they go to school, so why shouldn't everyone pay the same tax towards the universal curriculum? Parents can choose to pay for the benefits of private schooling as they see fit.


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    #345
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    SChique00 wrote: »
    But this is what it's already based upon? Points are constantly being pushed up by colleges due to the demand for places from overseas students and an increasing number of mature students, so current LC students are not guaranteed a place in any college, regardless of what school you attend. So don't try and justify this incredible notion of private school students "buying" places in colleges and universities, or being granted a place based on the prestige of whatever school they attended - they have to earn their places just like any other applicants.

    So theres no difference between private and public schools regarding literacy or numeracy? If theres no difference can you give me the reasons why parents choose private schools?


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    #346
    SChique00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭SChique00


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    So theres no difference between private and public schools regarding literacy or numeracy? If theres no difference can you give me the reasons why parents choose private schools?

    I feel it's more accurate to judge to base literacy and numeracy abilities on areas of the country, rather than individual schools. Certainly, a sizeable proportion of the students in my school have learning difficulties, particularly on the autistic spectrum, and parents send their children there because they feel that the environment will be safer, more tolerant of, and better equipped to deal with their child's disability.

    As for general reasons, well I can only speak from my own experience, but I was bullied in primary school and I fell in love with the school when I first visited it. There was a real sense of community which was present in both the staff and students, and the staff to the student ratio is lower than in most public schools (there are at most, 26 people in any one class, and in my own form group there are only 20 students). However, the main reason I went to my school is because my parents felt much more at ease about my wellbeing from looking at the school's policy on bullying and student safety - we're not allowed downtown for lunch, unlike the rest of the schools in town, for example. There was also the option for me to take music and drama lessons during school (at additional cost), but I didn't avail of either of these opportunities as they cut into class time.
    However, in terms of the content, education or even facilities, there is very little difference. In Transition Year, for example, there are sailing and horseriding programmes, but these are all at extra cost to the parents, and fitness is mandatory, so transport expenses are automatically added to the bill each term. My school is currently building a new multipurpose hall, but this is a project that has been in the pipeline for over a decade, as the school had to collect the funds from yearly fees.


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    #347
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Originally Posted by Chucky the tree

    Secondly parents might not want to pay for everyone elses improved education, I know I probably won't donate large money to a school when the majority of other parents could be arsed. .

    On this note I certainly would want to contribute towards a more equal education system based on intelligence (Im not faulting those who dont). People dont have to donate money. UCD is doing fantastic work to enable people from disadvantaged backgrounds attend college.

    Even the head of the trinity access programme called on an end to state funding of private schools. Its not all about money.


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    #348
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    secretambition wrote: »
    You can attend a private school for about €5000 a year. Are you saying that only 6% of people have that spare per year? Or is it more likely that they make choices - want to go on holidays, do up the house, change the car, just save?

    In most parts of the country there are no private schools, so to avail of private school would mean boarding. How many boarding schools charge €5000 per year.
    €5000 multiplied by the number of children in a family at school could be €15k or more. That is a huge amount of money for the vast majority of families which they would not be able to come up with under any circumstances.


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    #349
    SChique00
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭SChique00


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    In most parts of the country there are no private schools, so to avail of private school would mean boarding. How many boarding schools charge €5000 per year.
    €5000 multiplied by the number of children in a family at school could be €15k or more. That is a huge amount of money for the vast majority of families which they would not be able to come up with under any circumstances.

    If you actually examine the location of the various private schools in Ireland you will find that they are spread out across the country in several different areas - Villier's in Limerick, Wilson's Hospital in Westmeath and Wesley in Dublin, to name a few. Therefore while the boarding option is present in most Irish private schools, in my own school at least only a fifth of the students are residential students.


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    #350
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    SChique00 wrote: »
    If you actually examine the location of the various private schools in Ireland you will find that they are spread out across the country in several different areas - Villier's in Limerick, Wilson's Hospital in Westmeath and Wesley in Dublin, to name a few. Therefore while the boarding option is present in most Irish private schools, in my own school at least only a fifth of the students are residential students.

    How does a pupil living in Athlone or Moate get to Wilsons Hospital and back every day? It would be a long cycle ride. Most areas of the country are out of range of private schools.

    Do they teach geography in your school?


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    #351
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    How does a pupil living in Athlone or Moate get to Wilsons Hospital and back every day? It would be a long cycle ride. Most areas of the country are out of range of private schools.

    Do they teach geography in your school?

    Did they teach it at yours? Did you learn that a modern communications infrastructure includes things called buses, which people at my school were content to spend anything up to an hour each way on to reach it. Most kids don't go to school on bikes anymore.


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    #352
    golden lane
    Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭golden lane


    private schools........meaning not state schools........the private individual can, and should be able to spend their money on their own children.....

    as the state has an input, in that it is the law to educate children to a certain standard..................of course the state should pay for that part......and the parents should be free to pay extra as they deem fit.....


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    #353
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    secretambition wrote: »
    Did they teach it at yours? Did you learn that a modern communications infrastructure includes things called buses, which people at my school were content to spend anything up to an hour each way on to reach it. Most kids don't go to school on bikes anymore.

    An how does a child in Glasson village get to Wilsons Hospital on a bus? Or any child in Athlone or Moate. Not every part of the country is like South Dublin with buses on every corner and suburban rail systems.Do you seriously expect children to walk several miles to a bus stop, spend an hour on a bus, walk several more miles to school all the while carrying heavy bags and then do the same in reverse that evening?


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    #354
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    An how does a child in Glasson village get to Wilsons Hospital on a bus? Or any child in Athlone or Moate. Not every part of the country is like South Dublin with buses on every corner and suburban rail systems.Do you seriously expect children to walk several miles to a bus stop, spend an hour on a bus, walk several more miles to school all the while carrying heavy bags and then do the same in reverse that evening?

    Whats your obsession with Dublin? I was talking about a school in one of the most rural counties in Ireland that people spent an hour on a bus to get to. Also whats the obsession with Wilsons Hospital? Are there no private schools within an hour of Athlone or Moate (BY BUS)? And no, I don't expect anyone to spend an hour on a bus. It was a choice, but it is proof that it is possible.

    Also whats with all the walking? Most rural. private schools arrange buses that serve the surrounding hinterland at a considerable radius and the local towns and villages. There's unlikely to be any walking at the school end. If you don't live anywhere near the bus stop at your end, drop them to the bus, just like you're likely to have to do anyway if you live in a remote area outside a town. Stop trying to make a longish commute into an Arctic expedition. It's only a longish commute, no more. Most kids at my school never cared and had a great laugh on the bus. Oh, and if you've got a few hours supervised study after school, your bag won't be too heavy.


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    #355
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    College attendence should be one hundred per cent based on intelligence and hard work not what school you attend.

    Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

    That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places


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    #356
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    quietsailor wrote: »
    Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

    That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places

    I'd hate to see us go down the UK route of interview because Ireland is too small for it. I think there is too much potential to know someone. Of course I'm not saying that it would always come down to who you know. I'm sure the majority of admissions people are of great integrity.

    I also think it's a bit of a myth that the person who gets the points for veterinary is likely to have done it to look good and will have no aptitude for it. In my experience a person who is bright enough to get that will have sufficient aptitute to do just about anything they want, bar a few rare exceptions. I don't know why people rank having passion above dilligence. As long as you've got sufficient competence, it doesn't really matter why you got it - whether you're a really great vet because you've loved animals since you were 5, or whether you had no idea what you wanted to do until June of 6th year, but are dilligent and conscientious enough to get almost 600 points. The latter type of person is likely to take any job that they have very seriously and give it their all. Many of the most intelligent kids have no clear direction in what they want to do because they've always been able to do every subject if they put the effort in and nothing stood out. People who want people with the most passion to get the places would not find any place on any college course for many of the brightest students because they'd fail the enthusiasm test for everything.


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    #357
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    The other problem I have with the current progression towards a two tier system being government funded is that less than ten percent of people avail of something that everyones tax pays for. Everyone in the country pays tax towards state funding of private schools and only a very small percentage can avail of it.

    Everyon in the country pays tax towards education children, and everyone has will be given education. However some parents decided the portion of tax es they pay isn't enough so top it up with more of their own money. You are basically suggesting that parents pay for other peoples education, and then pay the full cost for their own children on top of it. Unless you agree they should be given a tax discount if they decide to keep their child in private school.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    If 2% of the six per cent of private school goers leave it will be a big problem? that is 0.0012 of the general population? Or if you meant 2% of the general population leave private shcool it will be a big problem I dont find it credible that 6% of the population wont and cant afford private school.

    Problem is you can't send a kick in South Dublin to school in Meath. Since a large number of private schools are located in a small area having a sudden big increase in demand for public schools in that same area will cause a big problem.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Do I think or believe that a situation where those who go to private school are more likely to go to college is going to affect the mindset of those who cant afford to go to college? Yes I do. The fact is some people in this country quite wrongly see college education as the right of the what they view as "elite" where as to my mind its the only people who have a right to college are the intelligent and hard working.


    I think this view happens, if it does I think it's the persons own fault for being that dumb.

    quietsailor wrote: »
    Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

    That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places


    That pressure will never be taken off. Even if it was an interview demand or the prestige of those course will still be just as high, they are seen that way because of their percieved importance and the money you can make.


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    #358
    secretambition
    Closed Accounts Posts: 192 ✭✭secretambition


    Actually if it were interview-led, the first thing you would see would be children of parents in the "professions" getting all kinds of great work experience and being coached on the current issues in the industry to give a knock-out interview performance that a kid from a different background never could. Even if the parent wasn't in the same profession, the fact that social circles mirror socio-economic circles means they're far more likely to know someone who can help.


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    #359
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    secretambition wrote: »
    Whats your obsession with Dublin? I was talking about a school in one of the most rural counties in Ireland that people spent an hour on a bus to get to. Also whats the obsession with Wilsons Hospital? Are there no private schools within an hour of Athlone or Moate (BY BUS)? And no, I don't expect anyone to spend an hour on a bus. It was a choice, but it is proof that it is possible.

    Also whats with all the walking? Most rural. private schools arrange buses that serve the surrounding hinterland at a considerable radius and the local towns and villages. There's unlikely to be any walking at the school end. If you don't live anywhere near the bus stop at your end, drop them to the bus, just like you're likely to have to do anyway if you live in a remote area outside a town. Stop trying to make a longish commute into an Arctic expedition. It's only a longish commute, no more. Most kids at my school never cared and had a great laugh on the bus. Oh, and if you've got a few hours supervised study after school, your bag won't be too heavy.

    Wilson's hospital was cited as an example by another poster. The reality is that it is not feasible to attend a private day school in may parts of the country. I challenged the poster to explain how someone living 30 miles away would get to it. He hasn't explained. Neither have you. It is not feasible for parents in rural areas to get involved in dropping children off at bus collection points either. Many have incompatible work schedules. The fact that some children spend an hour on a bus travelling to a private school shows how inaccessible private education is for people outside South Dublin where the private schools are on every corner.


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    #360
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    That pressure will never be taken off. Even if it was an interview demand or the prestige of those course will still be just as high, they are seen that way because of their percieved importance and the money you can make.

    The funny thing is most of my classmates who stuck out that job are earning circa €100K today (usually after tax as well)** so your talking consultant status or one bloody hard working vet or GP to equal them - yet my classmates are usually working on rigs or deep sea ships where they are 28 days on/off or 3 months on/off - ie they even have more time off than the Vets/Gps/Consultants

    **people who work out of the country for more than 6 months are considered to be "non-resident for tax purposes" so they don't pay the 21% or 42% income taxes. I'm not sure if the pay PRSI, Social levy, Pension levy etc but it'll still be a lot less than an equilavent Irish PAYE worker

    Maybe if pay scales and average hours worked per week were par of the the course info you'd see a change in those attitudes, probably not though, parents still want the perceived reflected social status


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    #361
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    secretambition wrote: »
    Actually if it were interview-led, the first thing you would see would be children of parents in the "professions" getting all kinds of great work experience and being coached on the current issues in the industry to give a knock-out interview performance that a kid from a different background never could. Even if the parent wasn't in the same profession, the fact that social circles mirror socio-economic circles means they're far more likely to know someone who can help.


    Hmmm, never thought of it that way. I'd say for the usual professions your right, Marine Engineers are such a small group that wouldn't happen with us but that won't apply to every profession - accountancy, now there is one where you'd be bang on, there is an accountant in every small town and village these days.



    getting all kinds of great work experience and being coached on the current issues in the industry to give a knock-out interview performance that a kid from a different background never could.
    The first part of that sentence would be a great thing - If the pupil sees what the life is like they can make a better choice of what they want to do in their life. Which, funnily enough, brings us back to the original topic about private schools - I'd reckon as the parents are more concerned about their children in those schools the children would have a better choice of work experience (maybe during transition year?) and thus a better chance of finding a career they like.
    I'd consider that another plus for a private school - if they were organising work experience during transition year. It's be another reason I'd send my hypothetical children to a private school

    The second part is unfair I will admit, however if the parents of pupils in the lower socio-economic school areas care enough about their children they can band together and do the same - set up a work experience programme to let their children experience different jobs. - the thing is will they care?


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