Priests: We won’t break seal of confession to report sex abuse

ironingbored · 26-04-2012 07:12PM #1

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/priests-we-wont-break-seal-of-confession-to-report-sex-abuse-3092495.html

What an heinous organisation the Catholic Church is.

Also, I found this phrase particularly disturbing and potentially bordering on the antisemitic:

Fr Sean McDonagh of the Association of Catholic Priests, which represents 800 clergymen, warned last night: "I certainly wouldn't be willing to break the seal of confession for anyone -- Alan Shatter particularly."

Sonics2k · 26-04-2012 07:16PM

Charming bunch of folks aren't they.

Personally I think they should be arrested for assisting a crime.

qrrgprgua · 26-04-2012 07:28PM

ironingbored wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/priests-we-wont-break-seal-of-confession-to-report-sex-abuse-3092495.html

What an heinous organisation the Catholic Church is.

Also, I found this phrase particularly disturbing and potentially bordering on the antisemitic:

Hold on a second.... The seal of confession is a corner stone of ALL priests of ALL church's. Go an get a sound bit from the orthodox church or Coptic or Armenian.. Its not dictated by Rome or Vatican or Pope..

And nobody has the authority to change this... Its not about covering up abuse.

Anyway think about the logic.. If you knew the priest would report you would you bother to confess..

So point the figure elsewhere. Once somebody opens up in confession there are many means of helping them.. Outting them in confession is not one of them. On this the church can't do anything. They can't change the seal of confession

Sonics2k · 26-04-2012 07:33PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Hold on a second.... The seal of confession is a corner stone of ALL priests of ALL church's. Go an get a sound bit from the orthodox church or Coptic or Armenian.. Its not dictated by Rome or Vatican or Pope..

And nobody has the authority to change this... Its not about covering up abuse.

Anyway think about the logic.. If you knew the priest would report you would you bother to confess..

So point the figure elsewhere, this is not a catholic Church rule.

Oh ffs. Will you stop apologizing for these people who allowed Priests to get away with child abuse for ****ing decades.

What the hell would your Jesus say about that.

Shameful behavior by so called "Gods people". :mad:

Sonics2k · 26-04-2012 07:34PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

H On this the church can't do anything. They can't change the seal of confession

YES THEY CAN!

/leaves thread before I get ban for calling out these ignorant disgraceful excuses for human beings.

qrrgprgua · 26-04-2012 07:37PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Oh ffs. Will you stop apologizing for these people who allowed Priests to get away with child abuse for ****ing decades.

What the hell would your Jesus say about that.

Shameful behavior by so called "Gods people". :mad:

How do you know they even confessed their crimes in confession?

There have been many attacks on the seal of confession and many priests have died for it. Its not going to change and its not about protecting or covering up anything.

Dades · 26-04-2012 07:40PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its not going to change and its not about protecting or covering up anything.

I agree that's probably true.

It's a tough one, this.

Dades · 26-04-2012 07:41PM

Also - calm down, people.

Roger Hassenforder · 26-04-2012 07:42PM

if a kiddie fiddler confesses his transgressions to a priest in a gloomy box and think's he's off the hook, and the priest is of the opinion this along with a few meaningless platatides is sufficient in the eyes of their sky fairy, both need to have a word with my rusty melon spoon.

If a Mooney (just for example, i dont know have they as much form as the RCC) rapes your child, and confesses his sins to his 'priest', would you like if he wasnt obliged to report it to the proper authorities, by which i mean those that can visit judgement and appropriate punishment in the here and now?

Go Shatter.

MagicMarker · 26-04-2012 07:43PM

If a priest hears a confession where a person admits to abusing a child and doesn't make an effort to report the crime, then quite simply the priest should be locked up with the abuser.

NO excuse.

Wereghost · 26-04-2012 07:45PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a loophole whereby, if the seal of confession causes a crisis of conscience for a priest, he can confess this to another priest - or is it specifically a bishop? - and waive his own right to confidentially, thus theoretically allowing his confessor to take action.

GLaDOS · 26-04-2012 07:45PM

If someone is sexually abusing children and another person knows about it and does nothing, it's putting other children at risk, as well as potential further abuse of previous victims.

How anyone can reconcile with that that is beyond me.

ShooterSF · 26-04-2012 08:10PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Anyway think about the logic.. If you knew the priest would report you would you bother to confess..

Are you serious? Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean you should continue to offer them protection.

Gbear · 26-04-2012 08:15PM

In general, is it a crime to be aware of a crime and not tell the police?

Knasher · 26-04-2012 08:18PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

How do you know they even confessed their crimes in confession?

I doubt they would be fighting so hard for an exemption from the law if people weren't confessing their crimes to them.

qrrgprgua · 26-04-2012 08:27PM

Knasher wrote: »

I doubt they would be fighting so hard for an exemption from the law if people weren't confessing their crimes to them.

Well since it is the Atheism/Agnostic forum I can be hardly surprised about the anti-religous back lash..

I am just astonished who the tread started hitting back at the catholic church .. without doing the homework to see exactly what is the seal of confession.

The subject of seal of confession is emphatic. There is no discussion on breaking it.

ShooterSF · 26-04-2012 08:31PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Well since it is the Atheism/Agnostic forum I can be hardly surprised about the anti-religous back lash..

You are seriously deluded if you think people's outrage at other people's unwillingness to report sex offenders requires them to be part of a religion!

qrrgprgua · 26-04-2012 08:33PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

You are seriously deluded if you think people's outrage at other people's unwillingness to report sex offenders requires them to be part of a religion!

Its not about not reporting sex offenders This argument seems to the in vogue as the media tries to tie it to the seal of confession..

The fact is nobody knows if an offender ever confessed abusing?!! do we? And if for arguments sack tomorrow hypothetically the priest could report sins// Do you think anyone would confess?

ShooterSF · 26-04-2012 08:38PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Its not about not reporting sex offenders This argument seems to the in vogue as the media tries to tie it to the seal of confession..

The fact is nobody knows if an offender ever confessed abusing?!! do we? And if for arguments sack tomorrow hypothetically the priest could report sins// Do you think anyone would confess?

No we dont and no I don't think they would confess. Does that change the fact that they wouldn't report it if they did? Also no. It's more to do with offering to do what;s right even if the occasion doesn't occur. If I said the same that I wouldn't report someone who told me and then defended it with the notion that if I said I'd report them they'd never tell me you would surely see how stupid that line of thinking is.

Sonics2k · 26-04-2012 08:39PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Well since it is the Atheism/Agnostic forum I can be hardly surprised about the anti-religous back lash..

I am just astonished who the tread started hitting back at the catholic church .. without doing the homework to see exactly what is the seal of confession.

The subject of seal of confession is emphatic. There is no discussion on breaking it.

It's got nothing to do with Religion, of any kind.

If someone confesses to a crime in the confessional, then the Priest should provide the information to the Gardai, as is his duty as a citizen of this country.

Anyway, isn't the whole point of Catholicism is that you confess your sins. Surely any "good" Priest would do this, per their belief.

Stop trying to fob this off as anti-religion, when it's actually just how society should be.

who the fug · 26-04-2012 08:49PM

How are they going to get a conviction, a one on one conversation

Is the state going around bugging confession boxes

qrrgprgua · 26-04-2012 08:50PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

No we dont and no I don't think they would confess. Does that change the fact that they wouldn't report it if they did? Also no. It's more to do with offering to do what;s right even if the occasion doesn't occur. If I said the same that I wouldn't report someone who told me and then defended it with the notion that if I said I'd report them they'd never tell me you would surely see how stupid that line of thinking is.

Look I don't want to tie the horror of child abuse up with confession. Priests are not looking to cover up abuse in this area, But the seal of confession is an absolute seal that is the very fabric of faith for centuries in all the Church's. And over different periods there have been advances from government's and kings to try and make priests break it. The priest who confesses does so "in persona Christi".

The law the Irish government is trying to pass is flawed in this area.. Do priests in Jails have to report the abuse that could be heard by inmates serving sentences for abuse?

The Church is extremely focused on never allowing abuse to return, Every suspicion is reported to the gards. Every Bishop knows full well they can't cover abuse up morally or lawfully... But confession has nothing to do with covering abuse, is part of our faith, its sealed, it goes beyond Catholic church/Rome/Pope, its emphatic and absolute.

"O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended you and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell. But most of all because I have offended you, my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of your grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life."

oldrnwisr · 26-04-2012 08:53PM

Gbear wrote: »

In general, is it a crime to be aware of a crime and not tell the police?

In general, no. The crime of misprision of felony was removed with the introduction of the Criminal Justice Act in 1997.

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Well since it is the Atheism/Agnostic forum I can be hardly surprised about the anti-religous back lash..

I am just astonished who the tread started hitting back at the catholic church .. without doing the homework to see exactly what is the seal of confession.

The subject of seal of confession is emphatic. There is no discussion on breaking it.

A couple of points.

First of all, this legislation doesn't mention the seal of confession. It does not single out the catholic church. It simply makes it an offence to withhold information. It is the priests rather who are placing themselves outside the law by adhering to a doctrine over the welfare of children and the law.

Secondly, this isn't the first piece of legislation to include such a clause. Section 42 of the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010 states:

"A designated person who knows, suspects or has reasonable grounds to suspect, on the basis of information obtained in the course of carrying on business as a designated person, that another person has been or is engaged in an offence of money laundering or terrorist financing shall report to the Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commissioners that knowledge or suspicion or those reasonable grounds."

This legislation also makes it a crime to withhold information regarding money laundering even if it is obtained in the confessional.

When this bill was passed there wasn't a peep out of the church regarding the seal of confession. Strange don't you think?

qrrgprgua · 26-04-2012 09:01PM

oldrnwisr wrote: »

When this bill was passed there wasn't a peep out of the church regarding the seal of confession. Strange don't you think?

There wasn't a peep for Orthodox church or church if Ireland.. Its not strange because no church can change the seal of confession... It goes without saying. The media are just looking to report and asked if priests would break the seal of confession to tie this back to their own agenda as if this were another example of covering up abuse...

Strange how for example they never asked one of the many Orthodox priests in Ireland about this?

oldrnwisr · 26-04-2012 09:10PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Strange how for example they never asked one of the many Orthodox priests in Ireland about this?

The article doesn't say anything about any of the priests quoted as being asked for their comment. The article gives the impression that these priests responded to the publication of the draft legislation proactively with their opinions. The quote from the ACP spokesman seems to support this. It doesn't appear as if the media or the Independent in this case sought any comment but rather received comments from outraged priests.

Delirium · 26-04-2012 09:10PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

There wasn't a peep for Orthodox church or church if Ireland.. Its not strange because no church can change the seal of confession... It goes without saying. The media are just looking to report and asked if priests would break the seal of confession to tie this back to their own agenda as if this were another example of covering up abuse...

Strange how for example they never asked one of the many Orthodox priests in Ireland about this?

Just on that, do the other branches of Christianity have the seal of confession? I can only find reference to the seal with regards to the Catholic church.

Turtwig · 26-04-2012 09:13PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The Church is extremely focused on never allowing abuse to return, Every suspicion is reported to the gards.

But not one confession. They'll cooperate with vague suspicions but not with possibly incriminating evidence. The mind boggles.

Knasher · 26-04-2012 09:14PM

qrrgprgua wrote: »

There wasn't a peep for Orthodox church or church if Ireland.. Its not strange because no church can change the seal of confession... It goes without saying. The media are just looking to report and asked if priests would break the seal of confession to tie this back to their own agenda as if this were another example of covering up abuse...

Strange how for example they never asked one of the many Orthodox priests in Ireland about this?

Wait, so are you essentially saying that you don't have a problem with the law, you just don't expect the priests will comply with it? It's just the media making a point out of the fact that the priests won't comply.

Or do you think they deserve to be exempted from it?

Run_to_da_hills · 26-04-2012 09:23PM

These guys really think that they are untouchable and are different from the law of the land. The Irish government really needs to show some teeth against this cult.

Cedrus · 26-04-2012 09:44PM

There is a straightforward way around it (that sounds like an Irish solution if ever there was one).

Canon Law
A sinner confesses their sin, the priest absolves the sin as it is within their power, the sin is then sealed by the confession. The priest is compliant with canon law.
Civil Law
A civilian admits guilt of a crime to second civilian who happens to be a priest, having no power to absolve a crime, the second civilian reports knowledge of said crime to the relevant bodies (Gardai, Social Services etc.). The priest is then compliant with civil law.

Failing to comply with this new law is a crime not a sin and can only be dealt with by the civil authorities.

mikhail · 26-04-2012 10:07PM

Gbear wrote: »

In general, is it a crime to be aware of a crime and not tell the police?

(IANAL) I think it's not trivial - mostly no, but there are circumstances where it crosses over into assessory after the fact. They're explicitly making it illegal for the crime of child abuse (and rape in general, I think) at the moment. Hence all the trouble.

Priests: We won’t break seal of confession to report sex abuse

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