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Priests: We won’t break seal of confession to report sex abuse

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    #122
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    What part of my post said the Orthodox Priests are okay with it.

    I very very very clearly said "The RCC are kicking up the biggest fuss about it."

    I'm sure their are quite a few religious orders who are unhappy about it, but the Law, morals and society's ethics are far far far more important than any Religious traditions.


    Actually its the Media kicking up the fuss.. The Catholic Church said the the seal of confession remains.. The Media ran with the sound bit.

    The orthodox Church weren't asked by the Irish Media.. But their stance is the exact same on confession.

    Anyway as I said in post 120 the argument is self defeating.


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    #123
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Actually its the Media kicking up the fuss.. The Catholic Church said the the seal of confession remains.. The Media ran with the sound bit.

    The orthodox Church weren't asked by the Irish Media.. But their stance is the exact same on confession.

    Anyway as I said in post 120 the argument is self defeating.

    Well, if there's no-one confessing to serious crimes in the Confession, what exactly is the problem? It's not as if they'll ever have to do it will they?

    Anyway, your last argument has already been defeated when you were linked to an article in which a Priest had been confessing in the confessional.

    And once again, this applies to everyone, not just the Church, so there is no witch-hunt going on here.


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    #124
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Actually its the Media kicking up the fuss.. The Catholic Church said the the seal of confession remains.. The Media ran with the sound bit.

    The orthodox Church weren't asked by the Irish Media.. But their stance is the exact same on confession.

    Anyway as I said in post 120 the argument is self defeating.

    The media is not not the message in this case my son- we are obbliged to The Association of Catholic Priests, David Quinn et al for the message.

    Why make a fuss now ? nothing has changed .


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    #125
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    why should catholic (or orthodox or whatever) priests be immune from the law the rest of us have to follow? should or should not the law be blind to religion? and if it should, where do we draw the line - and why?


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    #126
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    why should catholic (or orthodox or whatever) priests be immune from the law the rest of us have to follow? should or should not the law be blind to religion? and if it should, where do we draw the line - and why?


    Because this attacks the freedom of religion when the Seal of Confession is fundamental part of it.

    We either have freedom to practice our faith or we don't ..


    Anyway its not the first country that has come out attacking faith.


    But there is not talking logic in this thread. as I said in post 120 the argument is self defeating.


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    #127
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    How many of these priests allegations were brought in the confessional box? Its a smoke screen. If they report the matter, its better than what they used do.


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    #128
    franciebellew
    Site Banned Posts: 148 ✭✭franciebellew


    Seriously how much longer are we going to tolerate these guys?

    They should be arrested and brought to justice, every last one of them.

    Perverts


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    #129
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    We either have freedom to practice our faith or we don't.
    If your faith allows/condones/fights for its right for people to be endangered or harmed, then sorry, but I don't think you have the freedom the practice it.


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    #130
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Because this attacks the freedom of religion when the Seal of Confession is fundamental part of it.

    We either have freedom to practice our faith or we don't ..


    Anyway its not the first country that has come out attacking faith.


    But there is not talking logic in this thread. as I said in post 120 the argument is self defeating.
    You're stretching the meaning of freedom of religion to suit yourself. Freedom of religion doesn't grant you the right to stone your wife to death if she cheats on you, or to kill someone who worships other gods. Likewise it doesn't give you the right to protect child abusers.

    The fact that you would actually be in favour of a priest NOT reporting a child abuser who makes a confession is absolutely disgusting tbh.

    ''it takes religion to make good people do bad things''


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    #131
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Because this attacks the freedom of religion when the Seal of Confession is fundamental part of it.

    We either have freedom to practice our faith or we don't ..


    Anyway its not the first country that has come out attacking faith.


    But there is not talking logic in this thread. as I said in post 120 the argument is self defeating.

    Freedom of Religion, when it suits you, you mean.


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    #132
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    You're stretching the meaning of freedom of religion to suit yourself. Freedom of religion doesn't grant you the right to stone your wife to death if she cheats on you, or to kill someone who worships other gods. Likewise it doesn't give you the right to protect child abusers.

    The fact that you would actually be in favour of a priest NOT reporting a child abuser who makes a confession is absolutely disgusting tbh.

    ''it takes religion to make good people do bad things''

    As I said in Post 120... If the church said that abuse from confession would be reported... do you think anyone is going to incriminate themselves?

    No I am not in favour of not Reporting Child abuse. It should be reported.. But today if you are a Catholic you know that your confession is sealed.. If the Church decides it may not be always sealed.. then people simply won't confess crimes..

    Is there not logic in the argument... Also I am a catholic.. And I think it was Christ who stopped the stoning.. As regards to other faiths that still stone which they are other faiths.. not mine. Freedom of religion does not mean the right to murder or abuse or protect abusers.. But the seal of confession covers all that is said in confession, if it didn't then what is NOT covered in the seal would NOT be said and we would NOT be having this discussion.


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    #133
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    ''it takes religion to make good people do bad things''

    I can think of a lot of people without relgion who did bad things..

    I would say. It takes a man to do bad things.. without man there would be no evil. .....


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    #134
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    As I said in Post 120... If the church said that abuse from confession would be reported... do you think anyone is going to incriminate themselves?

    We're talking hypotheticals, so this doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me.
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    No I am not in favour of not Reporting Child abuse. It should be reported.. But today if you are a Catholic you know that your confession is sealed.. If the Church decides it may not be always sealed.. then people simply won't confess crimes..

    IF child abuse, or something just as heinous, were confessed to a priest, do you think he should break the seal of confession? Yes or no.


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    #135
    franciebellew
    Site Banned Posts: 148 ✭✭franciebellew


    Kegs


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    #136
    King Mob
    Registered Users Posts: 25,226 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    As I said in Post 120... If the church said that abuse from confession would be reported... do you think anyone is going to incriminate themselves?

    No I am not in favour of not Reporting Child abuse. It should be reported.. But today if you are a Catholic you know that your confession is sealed.. If the Church decides it may not be always sealed.. then people simply won't confess crimes..

    Is there not logic in the argument... Also I am a catholic.. And I think it was Christ who stopped the stoning.. As regards to other faiths that still stone which they are other faiths.. not mine. Freedom of religion does not mean the right to murder or abuse or protect abusers.. But the seal of confession covers all that is said in confession, if it didn't then what is NOT covered in the seal would NOT be said and we would NOT be having this discussion.
    But this line of logic does not make sense.
    So what if people won't confess to things after the seal is broken? It's about confessions that have already been made. The church already has that information but it is withholding it.
    And you've stated that it is not justifiable or moral to withhold the information or to protect abusers.

    This applies to all other professions and cases like child abuse are cases where stuff like doctor-patient confidentiality and attorney–client privilege don't count and people can be punished for failing to report such information in those circumstances.
    Arguing that somehow the clergy or religious are a special case is just the same as arguing that you are allowed to stone someone because your religion demands it.

    Furthermore, the entire idea of confession seems to be rather pointless if there's no consequences. If you were really sorry about something then you shouldn't avoid the punishment, so the fact that the confession might land you in trouble should not deter people.


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    #137
    El Inho
    Registered Users Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭El Inho


    ironingbored wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/priests-we-wont-break-seal-of-confession-to-report-sex-abuse-3092495.html

    What an heinous organisation the Catholic Church is.

    Also, I found this phrase particularly disturbing and potentially bordering on the antisemitic:

    well...

    I'm lapsed Catholic pretty much. Don't go to mass. Have my doubts about religion and god, and also believe the Catholic church needs to do a damn lot more.

    But if the seal of confession is broken for this. Then it will be broken for murder, and for every other crime on the planet. Now this isnt a problem until it comes down to the confession being broken you smaller things.

    while i dont believe the church has much trust left amongst the people...i do think this is understandable from the church to insist upon this being abided by.


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    #138
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    eldwaro wrote: »
    well...

    I'm lapsed Catholic pretty much. Don't go to mass. Have my doubts about religion and god, and also believe the Catholic church needs to do a damn lot more.

    But if the seal of confession is broken for this. Then it will be broken for murder, and for every other crime on the planet. Now this isnt a problem until it comes down to the confession being broken you smaller things.

    while i dont believe the church has much trust left amongst the people...i do think this is understandable from the church to insist upon this being abided by.

    Church's plural. Its not just one church that teaches that confession is sealed.


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    #139
    El Inho
    Registered Users Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭El Inho


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Church's plural. Its not just one church that teaches that confession is sealed.

    well whatever about the technicallity, my overall opinion applies too all places people trust someone to keep what they say secret.


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    #140
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    This whole thread is self defeating [...]
    Not self-defeating, just "going in circles" because you've stuck your fingers in your ears and simply repeated your belief that changing tradition is impossible.
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Church's plural.
    The plural of "church" is "churches".


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    #141
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Because this attacks the freedom of religion when the Seal of Confession is fundamental part of it.
    so religion trumps rule of law and protection of vulnerable parts of society from being abused by those in position of power. quelle surprise.


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    #142
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    As I said in Post 120... If the church said that abuse from confession would be reported... do you think anyone is going to incriminate themselves?
    So the choice is a person will, go to confession confess a crime, get absolution, maybe get jailed for a period of time on earth but avoid spending eternity in a lake of fire or; don't go to confession, hope they don't get caught some other way, perhaps spend some time in a jail on earth but definitely spend eternity in a lake of fire...?

    Seems like a no brainer to me. To quote Lord Vader "I find your lack of faith disturbing." It is almost as if you don't think people beleive in the doctrine of your precious despicable church.
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    No I am not in favour of not Reporting Child abuse. It should be reported.. But today if you are a Catholic you know that your confession is sealed.. If the Church decides it may not be always sealed.. then people simply won't confess crimes..
    And then they spend eternity burning in a lake of fire? Wow, that has to be the ultimate cutting off your nose to spite your face. Given that 84% of Ireland professes to be catholic, and given that somewhere in the region of 100% of priests would be catholic, would you not say that the majority of people in Ireland would still go to confession, given that their faith would tell them that if they don't they will spend eternity (which is quite a bit longer than any sentence they are likely to get in an Irish court irrespective of the crime) burning in a lake of fire?
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Is there not logic in the argument... Also I am a catholic.. And I think it was Christ who stopped the stoning.. As regards to other faiths that still stone which they are other faiths.. not mine. Freedom of religion does not mean the right to murder or abuse or protect abusers.. But the seal of confession covers all that is said in confession, if it didn't then what is NOT covered in the seal would NOT be said and we would NOT be having this discussion.
    You have a right to hold particular religious beliefs. This right is protected in Irish and European law. I don't know so much about the Irish law, but this right under European law is qualified. The courts in Europe, and indeed the states themselves as well as their courts and other organs can restrict that right when it is "necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others"

    That said, confession is not neccesarily connected to your right to hold a particular religious belief, it is more the content of your belief. The courts in the UK, and hopefully soon in Europe, have shown that they are will to protect a person's right to hold a belief, but not particular acts that flow form that belief, particularly when they impinge on someone else's rights, the christian hotel owners or the christian Relate counsellor for example.

    I would suggest that your concern about people not confessing, if there was a risk of the seal being broken, is only really valid if we assume that people don't actually believe what the church teaches about confession.

    MrP


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    #143
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    robindch wrote: »
    Not self-defeating, just "going in circles" because you've stuck your fingers in your ears and simply repeated your belief that changing tradition is impossible.

    Ok.. Change tradition. Say that X Y Z are not covered by the seal of confession. Then see how many of those crimes get reported.

    I'm not sticking my figures in my ears, far from it. Its your camp that's doing that. You won't accept human nature for what it is. Criminals don't incriminate themselves unless they want to. Today we can't say on the one hand we have seal of confession and on the other hand report what is said,, we have to be upfront first about what is confidential and what is not.

    Look we are both on the same page that Crimes of abuse should be reported and those suspected of abuse should be investigate by civil authorities. And the Catholic Church has every intention of doing this. But Changing the seal of Confession is not going to solve anything.. The first priest to break it and report a case just means others won't confess their unless unless they are going to incriminate themselves.

    A Priest I know gets is visited by hundreds of people each year looking for help.. many are not even practising Catholics.. But they will go because they want to talk about a problem in complete confidence.

    While if you call the Samaritans while they say the call is confidential its not really because a court order may unseal the data. And so people won't call for certain issues.


    I have counciled for years.. Unless you get people to open up you have no way of helping them or their victims. Alteast in a confidential forum you can start a process of reform that may lead to a conviction. Without the seal of confession you have no possibility at all of reaching some people unless civil authorities are able to catch them.

    So its not sticking my fingers in my ears.. Human nature is what it is.

    Its like journalism.. if one journalist were to out their source do you think journalists in the same paper would be trusted to keep information confidential.

    I know people think that ... well the priest Might know about abuse and does nothing about it. but the reality is that without the seal of confession nobody will know anything. Atleast once you have a person who has opened up in confession you have some possibility of getting them convicted.. with the seal you have nothing.

    Anyway lets not fool our selves thinking that paedophiles run to confession every week... They don't care about their victims, their consciences are so corrupted confession is not on their list of priorities. And IF they do confess.. they are not running to their local parish priest who knows them,, even if it is sealed.


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    #144
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    No I am not in favour of not Reporting Child abuse. It should be reported.. But today if you are a Catholic you know that your confession is sealed.. If the Church decides it may not be always sealed.. then people simply won't confess crimes..

    IF child abuse, or something just as heinous, were confessed to a priest, do you think he should break the seal of confession? Yes or no.

    Just in case you missed it the first time qrrgprgua....


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    #145
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Just in case you missed it the first time qrrgprgua....
    IF child abuse, or something just as heinous, were confessed to a priest, do you think he should break the seal of confession? Yes or no.

    Yes. The moral thing would be to report it. In my mind.

    If I were a priest and I did report it... Then it would be the last time it would be confessed.. So while I did the right think by my conscience saving a potential victim .. Their could be hundreds of others who will never trust a priest and who will never have the possibility of being helped by anyone.

    Me speaking for me.. If I were a priest I probably would hang up my collar and report the abuser.. But I'm not so its hypothetical.


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    #146
    El Inho
    Registered Users Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭El Inho


    Here is a situation worth thinking of! And while I'm against the breaking of confession...

    Young Joe goes to Fr. Dave for confession. Tells Fr. Dave he is going to lie to the whole parish, his parents everyone, telling them that Fr. Dave has sexually abused him.

    Fr. Dave tries to talk him out of it, but young Joe leaves.

    What does the priest do.


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    #147
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    eldwaro wrote: »
    Here is a situation worth thinking of! And while I'm against the breaking of confession...

    Young Joe goes to Fr. Dave for confession. Tells Fr. Dave he is going to lie to the whole parish, his parents everyone, telling them that Fr. Dave has sexually abused him.

    Fr. Dave tries to talk him out of it, but young Joe leaves.

    What does the priest do.

    That's not a confession... Its usually called blackmail.


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    #148
    El Inho
    Registered Users Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭El Inho


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    That's not a confession... Its usually called blackmail.

    its not really.

    the kid didn't ask for anything.

    and im pretty sure 'thau shall not covet your neighbours wife' involved no action, except a thought.

    in this event, the kid is saying he is going to do something, and seeks forgiveness before carrying it out.

    it is an unlikely, yet plausible situation, testing the strength of the priests respect for the seal of confession.


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    #149
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    eldwaro wrote: »
    its not really.

    the kid didn't ask for anything.

    and im pretty sure 'thau shall not covet your neighbours wife' involved no action, except a thought.

    in this event, the kid is saying he is going to do something, and seeks forgiveness before carrying it out.

    it is an unlikely, yet plausible situation, testing the strength of the priests respect for the seal of confession.

    Its not confession.. I could be going to kill someone tomorrow... intentionally committing a sin knowing its wrong and confessing to it prior to the act does not a confession make.

    The boy could say... Father I am going to kill you tomorrow... That does not stop the Priest leaving town to avoid the person.

    Confession is about making amends and not sinning again in the future. If you are intentionally not going to abide by this then you have not made a valid confession.


    To the same note, if an abuser confessed but said he can't help himself and he will abuse again and tells the priest who he is going to abuse...there is noting stopping the priest calling guards to say x person is in danger.. Anonymous Tip off as it were. You have to make a valid confession for it to be sealed.. and by valid meaning that you firmly intend not to sin again and receiving absolution.


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    #150
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    If I were a priest and I did report it... Then it would be the last time it would be confessed.. So while I did the right think by my conscience saving a potential victim .. Their could be hundreds of others who will never trust a priest and who will never have the possibility of being helped by anyone.
    Right, so a child abuser thinks twice about confessing to a priest because he fears he will go to jail?

    If the seal of confession is maintained and he confesses in safety, what does the priest do to help him? How is that perceived as "appropriate punishment" for those outside of the faith? I want child abusers locked up, I couldn't give a rat's bottom who they've told in the interim. If this law stops 1 or 10 or 100 child abusers confessing, I don't care, because that confession is meaningless in my world.


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    #151
    equivariant
    Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    When you get professional counselling, the counsellor will tell you at the start that everything is confidential unless the counsellor believes that there is a risk to someone's immediate physical wellbeing (especially if a child is at risk). Counsellors are professionally obliged to report it to the authorities if they believe that a child's well being is at risk. There is no reason why priests in confessionals should be any different. They are bound by the rules and laws of society just like everyone else.


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