Ombudsman says one Garda should face diciplinary action over Corrib comments.

micropig · 26-04-2012 01:38AM

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

They deal with terrible cases. The sergeant who made the comments was publicly commended by a victim of rape who's case he investigated and successfully prosecuted.

Very good, so he has had direct contact with rape victims and know the fallout

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

They dealt with this protester in a calm and professional manner by all accounts. He made a comment in private which had it been said publicly would rightfully been deemed inappropriate but it wasn't.

Still not appropriate. Student shouts something similar at teacher..teacher jokes in staff room, would this be appropriate?

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

Gardai may expect to be treated poorly by some people but they shouldn't have to accept it. Just like any other job. They are expected to act professionally but that does not mean they must be like machines.

They are going in to a hostile situation, yes, they probably should expect to get their feeling hurt

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

I don't get your last point as it would seem to suggest that if he'd just said he wanted to have sex would her that would be fine. If he'd said it to her it would have been just as bad. That he said it in private means it makes no difference.

Sorry, that should read, I wouldn't have sex/go near her whatever

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

If you are incapable of understanding my point of view then nothing is served by further discussion as I am unable to comprehend yours.

I understand your point of view. Do you understand it is not appropriate, joke or not?

LH Pathe · 26-04-2012 01:52AM

Ah, the great "rape tape".

see in my day we hade the great grape ape.. in morez innocent timeth

Marquis de carabas · 26-04-2012 02:09AM

micropig wrote: »

Very good, so he has had direct contact with rape victims and know the fallout

He knows how terrible something like rape is unlike a women who thought it'd be a smart way to make a Guard feel uncomfortable.

micropig wrote: »

Still not appropriate. Student shouts something similar at teacher..teacher jokes in staff room, would this be appropriate?

If one of the techers present found it offensive then yes it would be inappropriate. Just like the Guards comments would be inappropriate should one of his passengers been upset by it. As for the student in your scenario who cries rape to upset a teacher, not only would they not be effected by a private comment but even if they were to find out then like the women in this case, they would get no sympathy from me.

micropig wrote: »

They are going in to a hostile situation, yes, they probably should expect to get their feeling hurt

micropig wrote: »

Sorry, that should read, I wouldn't have sex/go near her whatever

Fair enough though still don't see how that would be appropriate to say to someone.

micropig wrote: »

I understand your point of view. Do you understand it is not appropriate, joke or not?

A jokes appropriateness is dependent on its audience. People make racist jokes, fat people jokes etc all the time. These are not always appropriate but the reality is a great deal of humour is based on the darker aspects of human nature.

Why? Because people draw comfort from the most shocking aspects of human nature by trying to minimise its terror and disgust that it invokes in them when they must face it.

Firemen joke about fires. Doctors, nurses and paramedics about the sick. Pathologists about the dead. The list goes on and on. It doesn't mean they don't care about the people they deal with. It just means their only human beings. Ones that deal with the harder aspects that life has to offer.

3rdDegree · 26-04-2012 11:29AM

Sasa1424 wrote: »

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I think it would be much more useful to look at the lack of respect the woman in this instance showed for her fellow women by initiating the whole sequence of events with her rape cries.

I agree with you that the accusations of rape made by the female protesters (pre-infamous remarks) were irresponsible and detrimental to the case I’m making for appropriate discourse around the issue of the rape.

But my main argument was that the remarks made by the sergeant etc. are now in the public domain and as such have taken on a life of their own BEYOND the actual context in which they occurred. And given this level of publicity, the general consensus that such comments are an acceptable brand of humour makes me feel threatened and more uneasy as a woman in my own country.

How can the Irish public deem it acceptable for a group of (uniformed) men to talk flippantly about using their physical strength to brutally intimidate and control women? Doesn't this now make it slightly more acceptable for more people to talk and think in this way?

By not acknowledging the damaging legacy of these remarks, I feel the system and that damned report (not to mention public opinion) has failed Irish women.

Now that a private conversation has gone public, you want a witch hunt.

Again, what if you made an inappropriate, private comment at your desk, like we all do from time to time, and you found out your employer was recording you. How would you feel? Do you think your rights to privacy should be ignored just because your comment is "out there"?

This issue had nothing to do with rape, respect for women or anything else. If we can no longer speak privately among our friends or work colleagues, then we have a serious issue.

darlett · 26-04-2012 11:34AM

He wouldn't last too long on boards with jokes like that.

I personally hope he's made an example of and that he gets banned for a week.

prinz · 26-04-2012 12:02PM

Sasa1424 wrote: »

By not acknowledging the damaging legacy of these remarks, I feel the system and that damned report (not to mention public opinion) has failed Irish women.

..Because men don't get sexually assaulted? Or raped?

The above is a load of nonsense to be fair. Within weeks of the 'rape tape' incident occurring a young woman attending a music gig for the shell to sea project was actually raped (allegedly by another of the anti-Shell protestors who subsequently did a runner). Guess what, she reported it the the gardaí.

Damaging legacy my arse. Stupid jokes, lesson learned. They also joked about being her friend on facebook. I'm afraid to go on to the site. I've been badly let down that someone might issue me with a Friend request.

3rdDegree · 26-04-2012 01:48PM

darlett wrote: »

He wouldn't last too long on boards with jokes like that.

I've seen much worse on Boards and there was no ban!

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 04:12PM

They should have been fired. It's shocking to think that such idiots can even get a job, let alone keep one after threatening to rape a woman in their custody (or keeping silent while another threatens to rape a woman, obnoxious joke or not). We have the right to expect professional conduct from the guards at all times. Intelligent people do not joke about rape, perhaps they should have been sacked just for being too stupid to have a job?

More corruption...

mconigol · 26-04-2012 04:18PM

smeedyova wrote: »

They should have been fired. It's shocking to think that such idiots can even get a job, let alone keep one after threatening to rape a woman in their custody (or keeping silent while another threatens to rape a woman, obnoxious joke or not). We have the right to expect professional conduct from the guards at all times. Intelligent people do not joke about rape, perhaps they should have been sacked just for being too stupid to have a job?

More corruption...

Learn the meaning of corruption

Turner · 26-04-2012 04:20PM

How are people still talking about this!!!

It was a private conversation between colleagues. The lady was not in their car/van and the tape was edited.

God if people are shocked by this they dont have very much life experience and should lock themselves in their houses and base their whole life around listening to the Joe Duffy show.

All professional people are human and when surrounded by their peers and in private they are free to talk as they wish, as long as their peers are not offended by their actions. They are the only people who should be able to make a complaint. And none of them have.

No crime was committed, and the Garda concerned will be dealt with by his commanding officer in private.

The only reason for this is it was unfortunate the recording camera was not turned off sitting on the back seat of the patrol car.

It wasn't me! · 26-04-2012 04:31PM

smeedyova wrote: »

They should have been fired. It's shocking to think that such idiots can even get a job, let alone keep one after threatening to rape a woman in their custody (or keeping silent while another threatens to rape a woman, obnoxious joke or not). We have the right to expect professional conduct from the guards at all times. Intelligent people do not joke about rape, perhaps they should have been sacked just for being too stupid to have a job?

More corruption...

*banging head off desk*

There. Was. No. Threat. It. Was. A. Joke.

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 04:52PM

mconigol wrote: »

Learn the meaning of corruption

That they got away with threatening to rape a woman is indeed corrupt.

I understand that the senior guard who was saying he would rape the woman has since retired out of reach of any punishment. Handy that.

The offender's own words indicate that he planned to rape the woman.

What concrete evidence is there that it was a joke?

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 04:54PM

mconigol wrote: »

Learn the meaning of corruption

That they got away with threatening to rape a woman is indeed corrupt.

I understand that the senior guard who was saying he would rape the woman has since retired out of reach of any punishment. Handy that.

The offender's own words indicate that he planned to rape the woman.

What concrete evidence is there that it was a joke?

Anybody who thinks that this is "normal" conversation between colleagues must have some pretty unintelligent coworkers. This kind of conversation would not be tolerated in my workplace and I have never heard such vulgar and debased conversation in the workplace.

humanji · 26-04-2012 04:58PM

smeedyova wrote: »

That they got away with threatening to rape a woman is indeed corrupt.

I understand that the senior guard who was saying he would rape the woman has since retired out of reach of any punishment. Handy that.

The offender's own words indicate that he planned to rape the woman.

What concrete evidence is there that it was a joke?

There was no intent to rape. That much is incredibly clear.

Turner · 26-04-2012 05:00PM

smeedyova wrote: »

What concrete evidence is there that it was a joke?

Anybody with an iota of common sense would see the evidence.

If you cant, maybe try ringing Joe Duffy for support.

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 05:05PM

humanji wrote: »

There was no intent to rape. That much is incredibly clear.

Clear in what concrete way? It is not clear to me. I hear only a man saying that he will rape a woman. That is clear.

Could you please point to the bit where he says "I don't intend to rape the woman I just find it funny to pretend I might."

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 05:07PM

Turner wrote: »

Anybody with an iota of common sense would see the evidence.

Hmm. Yet you do not point to the evidence. You just say that it is there. Funny that.

Come on then, show me the evidence!

humanji · 26-04-2012 05:09PM

smeedyova wrote: »

Clear in what concrete way? It is not clear to me. I hear only a man saying that he will rape a woman. That is clear.

Could you please point to the bit where he says "I don't intend to rape the woman I just find it funny to pretend I might."

Can you point out the bit where he says "I'm 100% going to rape that woman, I am not joking. I am deadly serious, despite the fact that we are all laughing about it."

And seeing as you view rape so seriously, I assume you also want the woman charged for false accusations of rape, right?

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 05:14PM

I take it from your weak reply that you cannot support your claim that it was a joke with concrete evidence.

From the transcript:

The offender clearly states twice "I'll rape you" and then "I'll definitely rape you". Evidence enough for you? I think his intentions are pretty clear.

Sgt. A “Give me your name and address or I’ll rape you”.
Garda C “Hold it there, give me your name and address, there, I’ll Facebook you”.
Laughter
Sgt. A “Or I’ll definitely rape you”.
Garda C “Will you be me friend on Facebook?”

It wasn't me! · 26-04-2012 05:16PM

You'd want to be profoundly autistic not to read humour into the tone of that conversation.

humanji · 26-04-2012 05:16PM

smeedyova wrote: »

I take it from your weak reply that you cannot support your claim that it was a joke with concrete evidence.

From the transcript:

The offender clearly states twice "I'll rape you" and then "I'll definitely rape you". Evidence enough for you? I think his intentions are pretty clear.

Sgt. A “Give me your name and address or I’ll rape you”.
Garda C “Hold it there, give me your name and address, there, I’ll Facebook you”.
Laughter
Sgt. A “Or I’ll definitely rape you”.
Garda C “Will you be me friend on Facebook?”

I highlighted the important bit that you seem to be ignoring. And are you worried of the threat that they're giong to try and befriend them on facebook, since they're so serious about all this?

And again, should the woman face charges for false rape accusations, accusations which led to the gardai in question making fun of her and making the joke?

Discodog · 26-04-2012 05:16PM

I listened to an interview with the representative, I think he was the girls tutor/professor, regarding the way that the Ombudsman handled the case. Apparently they were threatened with prosecution regarding the deleting of part of the tape & I have to say that his defence was very robust & very convincing.

The Guard should be dismissed without question because the Guards have to be beyond reproach. If that is too much to ask then recruit Guards that will act professionally. The Gardai need to grow up & decide whether they want to be a proper modern police force or continue being a caricature.

The Waltzing Consumer · 26-04-2012 05:17PM

smeedyova wrote: »

I take it from your weak reply that you cannot support your claim that it was a joke with concrete evidence.

From the transcript:

The offender clearly states twice "I'll rape you" and then "I'll definitely rape you". Evidence enough for you? I think his intentions are pretty clear.

Sgt. A “Give me your name and address or I’ll rape you”.
Garda C “Hold it there, give me your name and address, there, I’ll Facebook you”.
Laughter
Sgt. A “Or I’ll definitely rape you”.
Garda C “Will you be me friend on Facebook?”

Probably get a ban for this but you sir are a complete idiot if you believe what you are writing.

seamus · 26-04-2012 05:17PM

Ridiculous waste of state money and Garda time from this woman.

Gardai are human. Like every other worker on the planet, they privately take the piss out of the more comical characters that they've been dealing with that day. Shock, horror.

Discodog · 26-04-2012 05:20PM

seamus wrote: »

they privately take the piss out of the more comical characters that they've been dealing with that day. Shock, horror.

But it wasn't private. It was said within earshot of the woman. If that transcript is correct then I would argue that it was a clear threat & that is a crime.

It wasn't me! · 26-04-2012 05:22PM

Discodog wrote: »

I listened to an interview with the representative, I think he was the girls tutor/professor, regarding the way that the Ombudsman handled the case. Apparently they were threatened with prosecution regarding the deleting of part of the tape & I have to say that his defence was very robust & very convincing.

The Guard should be dismissed without question because the Guards have to be beyond reproach. If that is too much to ask then recruit Guards that will act professionally. The Gardai need to grow up & decide whether they want to be a proper modern police force or continue being a caricature.

No, they don't. It's why there's a GOC. No human institution will ever be beyond reproach and the day we stop accepting that and remove the mechanisms of our institutions which allow them to function alongside the inevitability of human error, we're fooked.

The Waltzing Consumer · 26-04-2012 05:22PM

Discodog wrote: »

But it wasn't private. It was said within earshot of the woman. If that transcript is correct then I would argue that it was a clear threat & that is a crime.

What are you talking about? It was in a car and the girl was not in the car :mad:

I always laugh at the 9/11 conspiracy nuts but you S2S people are absolutely bizarre.

seamus · 26-04-2012 05:23PM

Discodog wrote: »

But it wasn't private. It was said within earshot of the woman. If that transcript is correct then I would argue that it was a clear threat & that is a crime.

It wasn't. It was privately out of earshot of any members of the public. The woman's video camera had been confiscated and was sitting in the car running at the time. That's how the recording exists.

It was only when the camera was returned to her that she noticed it had been running and reviewed the contents of it.

smeedyova · 26-04-2012 05:24PM

A response of laughter from the colleagues is an indication of their lack of intelligence and not an indication that Sgt A did not actually intend to rape the woman.

I am still waiting for somebody to point to concrete evidence that clearly indicates that the guard did not intend to rape the woman. Calling me autistic or an idiot is, by the way, not a reasoned or legitimate defense for the guard in question. It is silly and a clear sign that you, unlike me, cannot support your argument with irrefutable evidence.

As for false accusations on the part of the woman: I am not aware that the accusations are false and I am concerned only with the comments that I heard on the tape.

It wasn't me! · 26-04-2012 05:25PM

Discodog wrote: »

But it wasn't private. It was said within earshot of the woman. If that transcript is correct then I would argue that it was a clear threat & that is a crime.

Was it? The only time it came up for her was when the camera was returned. Also, tone is important. If I tell you sarcastically I'm going to strangle you with a sock, there's certainly no clear threat, because anyone who heard it and who's not braindead will hear the sarcastic tone. The material hasn't changed, but its presentation has. If I'm visibly angry and taking off my shoe at the time, the presentation is rather different.

Ombudsman says one Garda should face diciplinary action over Corrib comments.

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