Ombudsman says one Garda should face diciplinary action over Corrib comments.

It wasn't me! · 25-04-2012 10:58AM

micropig wrote: »

.Edited video or not, what on earth are the Gardai doing joking about raping a citizen?

It show some members contempt for the public. The only things the Gardai involved in this are sorry for, is that their real feelings in the public domain.

To be fair, when the joke sprung from an incident where a woman cried rape as soon as the Gardai touched her, contempt is appropriate.

They're hardly going to get back in the car going "Jaysus, sure wasn't she terrible rational? Nothing but respect for that woman."

itac · 25-04-2012 10:58AM

RE: the footage being deleted....media colleges tend to have cameras going out with students every day, or every second day-there's a very high turnover.

If the footage was on a tape or card, it would have been uploaded onto a computer/drive at the college, edited and then the original footage either kept by the student if they wanted it, or deleted by the college in order to keep space free on the computers.

The tape from which the original footage was taken could've been lost, it could have snapped, it could have been given to someone else to re-record onto for their work-there's nothing sinister/unusual about this. It could easily have been a case of the tape was uploaded, the students didn't review the footage for a day, in which case, the tape could easily have been overwritten by the next person to take/use the camera.

If they (the people involved) chose to go ahead with giving an edited version and claiming it was unedited, that's a whole different story!

Julia London · 25-04-2012 11:03AM

I listened to the tape last night on Vincent Browne and maybe im an asshole but it made me laugh. It was a joke between colleauges pure and simple. A very bad taste one but it doesnt make these men rapists waiting in the wings. Ireland is become too PC on issues like this

micropig · 25-04-2012 11:06AM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

To be fair, when the joke sprung from an incident where a woman cried rape as soon as the Gardai touched her, contempt is appropriate.

They're hardly going to get back in the car going "Jaysus, sure wasn't she terrible rational? Nothing but respect for that woman."

No, but surely they're trained to deal professionally with their situation? If a woman is shouting rape, when there is obviously no rape going on,..is the training get to schoolyard level and trade insults?

itac · 25-04-2012 11:18AM

micropig wrote: »

No, but surely they're trained to deal professionally with their situation? If a woman is shouting rape, when there is obviously no rape going on,..is the training get to schoolyard level and trade insults?

But they didn't trade insults with her during her rape claim, they made it as a private joke afterwards. How many of us have been nice as pie when serving/working with someone who's making some outlandish claim, and then turned around afterward and said "what an eejit!"

I once had a woman claim her husband would die unless I gave her a table in the restaurant immediately. I politely told her several times she'd have to wait, she told me he'd die, it would be my fault, I'd need to get an ambulance on standby etc, and then finally she left. I smiled politely everytime she repeated it, and reiterated that she'd have to wait, but after she left, my staff will tell you, I spent the night saying things like-I have to bring this wine to table 5, or they'll die! I'll have to wipe that table, or they'll die!

Was it an off colour joke-yes. Was it unprofessional, yes. But again, how many of us have never said something to someone else in private that we'd never say to someone's face?!

AudreyHepburn · 25-04-2012 11:21AM

The reaction to this whole thing is laughable in my opinion. I’ll accept that the joke may have been in more taste but it arose because one of the women involved cried rape before the Gardai have even touched her. I believe, from what I’ve read, that she intimated that if she went with them they’d rape her. I can’t blame the Gardai at all for their contempt or for seeing what she said as a joke.

They were not imo joking about rape itself but at the idea that this woman seemed to believe she was going to be raped by them. I certainly don’t think they deserve a reprimand for a private joke made when well out of earshot of the women. One which the women only discovered later and which they only reported after deleting other footage from the camera.

Anyone with half a brain cell can see how ridiculous this whole situation is and how unnecessary all this over PC-ness has become.

It wasn't me! · 25-04-2012 11:24AM

micropig wrote: »

No, but surely they're trained to deal professionally with their situation? If a woman is shouting rape, when there is obviously no rape going on,..is the training get to schoolyard level and trade insults?

They did deal professionally with it. They didn't threaten to rape her. They never said anything of the sort to her. They made a sarky joke afterwards, which is an absolutely normal response. If it had been me and she started shouting rape, I'd have wanted to give her a good smack for trivialising the subject and I can imagine they weren't too impressed with her either. Her behaviour is far worse than theirs was. Professionalism isn't about never voicing your reactions, but about doing it in private, and not to the tard's face.

Paparazzo · 25-04-2012 12:02PM

Take a look at the crys of retail thread. Imagine dealing with a complete abuseive customer all day, accusing you of rape, filming everything you do and editing it so it makes you look bad and generally making your life hell. Now, you get 5 minutes break with your workmates. Of course you're going to make some sort of joke about it.

All this proves is garda are human.

Marquis de carabas · 25-04-2012 12:30PM

I think its been pointed out enough times that the Guards involved here were not making light of rape but responding to an incident they dealt with so I won't go into that.

For those though that believe Guards should never joke about these things I'd say a bit of perspective is in order.

If you dealt with serious assaults, rape, road traffic deaths, murder etc would you sit around afterwards thinking how terrible it is. How terrible the world is that these things happen. How long do you think it would take before such a person would have a mental breakdown?

Anyone who works in any stressful job should understand. When a boss is a bully and tyrant who survives better, the guy who sits at home worrying about him or the guy who makes fun of him out in the pub?

Professionalism has nothing to do with how people feel its about how they they act. The sergeant involved has been commended for his dedication and understanding in a number of rape cases. That's what he should be judged on.

MagicSean · 25-04-2012 12:35PM

Difference Engine wrote: »

IIRC a couple of protesters were on top of a truck or tractor to stop it moving. They refused to come down and the gardai removed them by force. As one was being taken down she started calling out "rape". I am open to correction on the details though.

It was more a case of a silly throwaway comment rather than a serious allegation against anyone.

Edit: prinz beat me to it, with a link and details and everything.

The first video shows protestors being removed from a tractor and one of them shouts rape. The "rape tape" shows one of the arrested women making allegations about the Gardaí. "She's been assaulted. She's not safe with that man."

BattleCorp · 25-04-2012 07:16PM

The Gardai have a sh1te job to do. It's a stressful job that I wouldn't fancy doing. They get it from all sides. Just because one of them makes a crappy joke, it isn't really a disciplinary matter apart from a "try not to make jokes like that again" talk with his superior.

If the authorities decide it is very serious and discipline the Garda, then they should discipline the woman who shouted "rape" when the Gardai were trying to arrest her.

This country is too fcuking PC.

Dangerous Man · 25-04-2012 07:36PM

The Guard did nothing wrong. He was having a private conversation - even if it was during the course of his duty it was still private, not intended for anybody else. Not only that, but the joke was funny. Give that man a promotion.

44leto · 25-04-2012 07:45PM

He should be thrown out of the force.

While a woman was locked in the back of a garda car he a powerful police official talks about raping a prisoner. Yeah, it was a joke, who jokes like that and in a Garda uniform the humour would somehow be lost.

It wasn't me! · 25-04-2012 07:54PM

44leto wrote: »

He should be thrown out of the force.

While a woman was locked in the back of a garda car he a powerful police official talks about raping a prisoner. Yeah, it was a joke, who jokes like that and in a Garda uniform the humour would somehow be lost.

Jesus, that's some emotive language there. She's not Princess Peach and he's not Bowser. Your characterisation of him as a "powerful" Garda is more than a little weird.

The Waltzing Consumer · 25-04-2012 07:57PM

44leto wrote: »

He should be thrown out of the force.

While a woman was locked in the back of a garda car he a powerful police official talks about raping a prisoner. Yeah, it was a joke, who jokes like that and in a Garda uniform the humour would somehow be lost.

Can you not read the whole thread before you say something so completely naive and incorrect?

Pretty much all posters have pointed out the context of this "joke" was based on allegations of rape towards gardai who did nothing at all to this woman at the time. The two women were escorted off a tractor as softly as possible with cameras and female gardai in attendance and the woman alleged rape!!!

If the Gardai get thrown out of the force for their reaction, she should be thrown in jail for false allegations.

Oh, it also does not help that the Guard has retired since :rolleyes:

Seriously, why can't you read?

HeidiHeidi · 25-04-2012 07:58PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Jesus, that's some emotive language there. She's not Princess Peach and he's not Bowser. Your characterisation of him as a "powerful" Garda is more than a little weird.

And apart from anything else, she wasn't in the car with him.

3rdDegree · 25-04-2012 08:16PM

Crazy that anyone should be disciplined for saying something in a private conversation. I think everyone here has made tasteless jokes among friends that they would never make in general public. Lot of hypocrisy around this. How would you feel if you made an offensive joke at your desk only to be disciplined by your employees because some one had hidden a microphone or camera there?

This is very, very dangerous ground we are now starting to walk...

Sasa1424 · 25-04-2012 11:35PM

Julia London wrote: »

I listened to the tape last night on Vincent Browne and maybe im an asshole but it made me laugh. It was a joke between colleauges pure and simple. A very bad taste one but it doesnt make these men rapists waiting in the wings. Ireland is become too PC on issues like this

3rdDegree wrote: »

Crazy that anyone should be disciplined for saying something in a private conversation. I think everyone here has made tasteless jokes among friends that they would never make in general public. Lot of hypocrisy around this. How would you feel if you made an offensive joke at your desk only to be disciplined by your employees because some one had hidden a microphone or camera there?

This is very, very dangerous ground we are now starting to walk...

Okay it was supposed to be a ‘private joke’. And okay the remarks were not intended to actually intimidate the female protestors involved. And the female protestors themselves may have been unscrupulous in making the accusations of rape in the first place.

But when the remarks became as public as they did, what’s at stake in this debate went far beyond the above contextual justifications of the now infamous remarks.

If the sergeant in question (conveniently retired) isn’t publicly criticized/reprimanded for his remarks, doesn’t this indirectly sanction that it’s acceptable for our ‘Guards of the Peace’ to not treat the rape of females with the respect that such a trauma and infringement of human rights deserves?

And if it’s deemed okay for uniformed Gardai, then isn’t that communicating that it’s okay for all citizens to talk flippantly about rape? As a female Irish citizen, I feel deeply unsettled and threatened by this apparently widespread response.

To re-iterate, given that this issue is now as public as it is, can we really just shrug our shoulders and dismiss the remarks as ‘only joking’ and think that it doesn’t have implications for the balance of power relations between men and women in modern Irish society? And for the status of women in Irish society?

My instinct tells me not.

It wasn't me! · 25-04-2012 11:40PM

I think it would be much more useful to look at the lack of respect the woman in this instance showed for her fellow women by initiating the whole sequence of events with her rape cries.

Sasa1424 · 26-04-2012 12:08AM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I think it would be much more useful to look at the lack of respect the woman in this instance showed for her fellow women by initiating the whole sequence of events with her rape cries.

I agree with you that the accusations of rape made by the female protesters (pre-infamous remarks) were irresponsible and detrimental to the case I’m making for appropriate discourse around the issue of the rape.

But my main argument was that the remarks made by the sergeant etc. are now in the public domain and as such have taken on a life of their own BEYOND the actual context in which they occurred. And given this level of publicity, the general consensus that such comments are an acceptable brand of humour makes me feel threatened and more uneasy as a woman in my own country.

How can the Irish public deem it acceptable for a group of (uniformed) men to talk flippantly about using their physical strength to brutally intimidate and control women? Doesn't this now make it slightly more acceptable for more people to talk and think in this way?

By not acknowledging the damaging legacy of these remarks, I feel the system and that damned report (not to mention public opinion) has failed Irish women.

micropig · 26-04-2012 12:11AM

**Googling rape jokes for coffee time tomorrow, I'm sure my collegues will be in stitches:D

Knock Know,
Who's there

No, I'm not really sick enough to joke about an extremely serious crime, which has a devastating effect, on not only women but their families

It wasn't me! · 26-04-2012 12:19AM

Sasa1424 wrote: »

I agree with you that the accusations of rape made by the female protesters (pre-infamous remarks) were irresponsible and detrimental to the case I’m making for appropriate discourse around the issue of the rape.

But my main argument was that the remarks made by the sergeant etc. are now in the public domain and as such have taken on a life of their own BEYOND the actual context in which they occurred. And given this level of publicity, the general consensus that such comments are an acceptable brand of humour makes me feel threatened and more uneasy as a woman in my own country.

How can the Irish public deem it acceptable for a group of (uniformed) men to talk flippantly about using their physical strength to brutally intimidate and control women? Doesn't this now make it slightly more acceptable for more people to talk and think in this way?

By not acknowledging the damaging legacy of these remarks, I feel the system and that damned report (not to mention public opinion) has failed Irish women.

Honestly, and I'm not trying to be flippant here, but that just sounds far too damn thin-skinned to be a practical position. If you feel threatened because a couple of lads laughed off the accusation of being rapists with snide comments, you'd probably not want to set foot outside again.

Marquis de carabas · 26-04-2012 12:32AM

Sasa1424 wrote: »

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I think it would be much more useful to look at the lack of respect the woman in this instance showed for her fellow women by initiating the whole sequence of events with her rape cries.

I agree with you that the accusations of rape made by the female protesters (pre-infamous remarks) were irresponsible and detrimental to the case I’m making for appropriate discourse around the issue of the rape.

But my main argument was that the remarks made by the sergeant etc. are now in the public domain and as such have taken on a life of their own BEYOND the actual context in which they occurred. And given this level of publicity, the general consensus that such comments are an acceptable brand of humour makes me feel threatened and more uneasy as a woman in my own country.

How can the Irish public deem it acceptable for a group of (uniformed) men to talk flippantly about using their physical strength to brutally intimidate and control women? Doesn't this now make it slightly more acceptable for more people to talk and think in this way?

By not acknowledging the damaging legacy of these remarks, I feel the system and that damned report (not to mention public opinion) has failed Irish women.

Im sorry so your point is that it doesn't matter what happened, what was said or why it was said? These men should be punished to make a public example? To ensure that people think in the "correct" manner?

Should we also start hanging public comedians? After all they make such jokes and worse while women are in the audience not to mention those at home watching on tv or who bought their dvd.

Should there be a new crime of making light of rape? Will it apply to private comments in peoples homes? Should the gardai be allowed to tap phone calls or plant bugs to gather evidence?

It's insane. You cannot police peoples minds.

micropig · 26-04-2012 12:50AM

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

Im sorry so your point is that it doesn't matter what happened, what was said or why it was said? These men should be punished to make a public example? To ensure that people think in the "correct" manner?

Should we also start hanging public comedians? After all they make such jokes and worse while women are in the audience not to mention those at home watching on tv or who bought their dvd.

Should there be a new crime of making light of rape? Will it apply to private comments in peoples homes? Should the gardai be allowed to tap phone calls or plant bugs to gather evidence?

It's insane. You cannot police peoples minds.

Not about controlling thoughts

If you are wearing a uniform, have respect for what it represents

Marquis de carabas · 26-04-2012 01:03AM

micropig wrote: »

Not about controlling thoughts

If you are wearing a uniform, have respect for what it represents

A strange statement given your other posts. So its not about what these men might joke about in private its about how they do there job?

Well I have no problem with that in general. It would seem to imply though in this situation that the problem is not what you do. It's getting caught making a private comment. Seems like a poor philosophy and a little bit confused. Now if they had threatened to rape her I'd understand where your coming from but it was her who was making light of rape and they never said a word to her.

Have I taken you up wrong? Or is it only guards minds that should be policed? The ombudsmans budget will need a drastic increase if that's the case.

micropig · 26-04-2012 01:13AM

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

A strange statement given your other posts. So its not about what these men might joke about in private its about how they do there job?

Well I have no problem with that in general. It would seem to imply though in this situation that the problem is not what you do. It's getting caught making a private comment. Seems like a poor philosophy and a little bit confused. Now if they had threatened to rape her I'd understand where your coming from but it was her who was making light of rape and they never said a word to her.

Have I taken you up wrong? Or is it only guards minds that should be policed? The ombudsmans budget will need a drastic increase if that's the case.

Garda are in a position of power it's the nature of their job
Garda deal with rape victims who are vulnerable

They are trained in dealing with anti social behaviour.

They should have more cop on. When they're going in to situation like this they are going to get every type of abuse and slur thrown at them. They need to learn to ignore it and act professional, Playground tactics should be beneath them. If they are doing nothing wrong, they have nothing to worry about, no matter what a protester shouts at them, sticks and stones and all that.

when wearing a uniform respect what it represents, It show's disdain for the people they are suppose to be protecting.

Private or not, when in work there is no way I'd joke about rape,

There is a 100 and one things he about have said about her, he could have said I would have sex with her, the state or whatever but to joke about rape??

hondasam · 26-04-2012 01:21AM

micropig wrote: »

Private or not, when in work there is no way I'd joke about rape,

You think no one makes jokes at work? We all make light of things and laugh at stuff in private. She mentioned rape and they made a bad joke about it but it was a joke.

micropig · 26-04-2012 01:27AM

hondasam wrote: »

You think no one makes jokes at work? We all make light of things and laugh at stuff in private. She mentioned rape and they made a bad joke about it but it was a joke.

I'm not disputing it was a joke, or that people joke at work maybe I have just have a different sense of humour...but Garda should be above this (trained to be, if the recruitment does not consider what common sense a person has)

As a Garda he had certain responsibilities, more so than a non-Garda, I would not expect a fireman to laugh at a victim, paramedic the same, teachers joking about child abuse..makes me question the mentality behind it.

* know she wasn't a victim of rape and accused him etc, but professionalism

Marquis de carabas · 26-04-2012 01:30AM

micropig wrote: »

Garda are in a position of power it's the nature of their job
Garda deal with rape victims who are vulnerable

They are trained in dealing with anti social behaviour.

They should have more cop on. When they're going in to situation like this they are going to get every type of abuse and slur thrown at them. They need to learn to ignore it and act professional, Playground tactics should be beneath them. If they are doing nothing wrong, they have nothing to worry about, no matter what a protester shouts at them, sticks and stones and all that.

when wearing a uniform respect what it represents, It show's disdain for the people they are suppose to be protecting.

Private or not, when in work there is no way I'd joke about rape,

There is a 100 and one things he about have said about her, he could have said I would have sex with her, the state or whatever but to joke about rape??

Nope sorry don't agree with you at all.

They deal with terrible cases. The sergeant who made the comments was publicly commended by a victim of rape who's case he investigated and successfully prosecuted.

They dealt with this protester in a calm and professional manner by all accounts. He made a comment in private which had it been said publicly would rightfully been deemed inappropriate but it wasn't.

Gardai may expect to be treated poorly by some people but they shouldn't have to accept it. Just like any other job. They are expected to act professionally but that does not mean they must be like machines.

I don't get your last point as it would seem to suggest that if he'd just said he wanted to have sex would her that would be fine. If he'd said it to her it would have been just as bad. That he said it in private means it makes no difference.

If you are incapable of understanding my point of view then nothing is served by further discussion as I am unable to comprehend yours.

hondasam · 26-04-2012 01:30AM

micropig wrote: »

I'm not disputing it was a joke, or that people joke at work maybe I have just have a different sense of humour...but Garda should be above this (trained to be, if the recruitment does not consider what common sense a person has)

You seem to think gardai are super human, they joke about stuff between themselves same as the rest of us. Do you think once the uniform goes on they are all serious.
What should they be above exactly?

Ombudsman says one Garda should face diciplinary action over Corrib comments.

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