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Abortion

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    #902
    Irishchick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    Lovely stuff.

    You should go and show those images to some of the women who have to travel abroad to have a termination because their child will not live outside the womb. I'm sure they'll appreciate your "raw truth".


    the circumstances will not change how an abortion is carried out and what the result will look like.

    If you are will do go through with these procedures you should be able to accept the reality of what you are doing.


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    #903
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    If you read back over the thread you will see posts from women who have travelled. Some are having a hard time coming to terms with it. The last thing they need is your prolife images.


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    #904
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Irishchick wrote: »
    the circumstances will not change how an abortion is carried out and what the result will look like.

    There are different ways to carry out terminations so yes, circumstances can change that.

    But don't let actual facts get in the way of your "I'M RIGHT AND I WILL SHOUT AND SHOVE THINGS IN PEOPLE'S FACE UNTIL THEY ACCEPT THIS" style of arguing though.

    People like you are seriously lacking in compassion towards people who have had to make a terribly terribly tough decision. I actually pity you.


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    #905
    Irishchick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    eviltwin wrote: »
    If you read back over the thread you will see posts from women who have travelled. Some are having a hard time coming to terms with it. The last thing they need is your prolife images.

    this thread is about abortion so you hardly think its going to be one sided. The women are having trouble coming to terms with it because they know what they've done and they are regretting it now. Its what happens. Some women need counselling for years to deal with an abortion. Its damaging. There is nothing positive about it.


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    #906
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Irishchick wrote: »
    KeithM89 wrote: »
    Mod

    Please dont post those images again!!

    Give a good reason why? Those pictures show the truth of abortion.

    People have this fairytale image of just removing a bunch of cells from a woman when it involves cutting up a foetus inside the womb and removing the pieces
    one by one.


    People also have this fairytale notion that a choice for abortion is easy...

    But good going, you've lowered the tone of your own argument..


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    #907
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Irishchick wrote: »
    this thread is about abortion so you hardly think its going to be one sided. The women are having trouble coming to terms with it because they know what they've done and they are regretting it now. Its what happens. Some women need counselling for years to deal with an abortion. Its damaging. There is nothing positive about it.

    Youth Defence have tried this tactic for years and it doesn't work.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #908
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Irishchick wrote: »
    this thread is about abortion so you hardly think its going to be one sided. The women are having trouble coming to terms with it because they know what they've done and they are regretting it now. Its what happens. Some women need counselling for years to deal with an abortion. Its damaging. There is nothing positive about it.

    You can make a point without resorting to that rubbish, plenty of others have. And not all women regret abortion.


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    #909
    Irishchick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    There are different ways to carry out terminations so yes, circumstances can change that.

    Yes , but they all involves removing the foetus through the cervix and vagina.
    Depending on the size of the baby it is either:

    Cut up and removed piece by piece,
    The baby is decapitated, the body removed and the skull crushed and removed,
    If the foetus is small enough it can be suctioned whole or in pieces

    The end result is still the same: Dead butchered infant


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    #910
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You're a "cellular structure" in a certain manner of speaking.
    I know, but I was using "cellular structure" as a non-specific term for either tissues, clumps of cells, etc.
    As for the exact meaning of an organism, even a single celled amoeba is an organism. An organism isn't defined by the number of cells it has.
    I've always understood a multi-cellular organism to be a series of organ systems working cooperatively to provide the defining functions of life (reproduction, response, etc.)
    All that an organism is is a single individual life form. A gastrula certainly meets that definition as does a newborn baby.
    Can you provide a definition of an organism? I've always roughly worked off the one above, which is a bastardisation of one I learned many years ago.


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    #911
    Irishchick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭Irishchick


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    People also have this fairytale notion that a choice for abortion is easy...

    But good going, you've lowered the tone of your own argument..

    I never said it was easy. Doing the right thing seldom is.


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    #912
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    As real and as terrible as the photos may be, they're not the best way of arguing against elective abortion.

    Shocking photos just shock and horrify people. They're not the best way to get people to reconsider their position.


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    #913
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Two points:
    1. Neurulation (Formation of the neural tube) occurs almost simultaneously with gastrulation
    I'll have to read up a bit on that before I would be willing to say if I would consider that enough, wikipedia says that the neural tube "will later differentiate into the spinal cord and the brain", so it sounds a little premature to me. But for the sake of argument lets say I agree that the right to life should be extended all the way back to neurulation, it wouldn't change my pro-choice stance. Your right to life is contingent on your ability to practice it without violating the rights of others.
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    2. What about people in comas? Are they no longer alive too?
    I'm not a doctor or a biologist so I don't want to speak authoritatively. All I'm willing to say is if I were in a coma and my doctor decided to a reasonable degree of certainty that I wouldn't recover. Then at that point I (figuratively speaking of course) would consider myself dead. That being said, I appreciate that I mightn't be willing to draw such a harsh line if someone I loved were in the same situation.


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    #914
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Irishchick wrote: »
    Yes , but they all involves removing the foetus through the cervix and vagina.
    Depending on the size of the baby it is either:

    Cut up and removed piece by piece,
    The baby is decapitated, the body removed and the skull crushed and removed,
    If the foetus is small enough it can be suctioned whole or in pieces

    The end result is still the same: Dead butchered infant

    Such compassion. People know what's involved. Especially someone who has gone through a termination.

    Your style of 'debate' doesn't even touch the realm of intelligent discussion. It's all hyperbole and hatred from people like you. Do you not have an ounce of compassion in you?


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    #915
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Irishchick wrote: »
    Why did you delete the images? That is the raw truth of abortion.

    Are people so sheltered that they cant deal with truth now??

    If surgical procedures that look 'gross' is the standard we're setting for which procedures we should or shouldn't allow then we're going to have a lot of very dead people very quickly.


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    #916
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I know, but I was using "cellular structure" as a non-specific term for either tissues, clumps of cells, etc.I've always understood a multi-cellular organism to be a series of organ systems working cooperatively to provide the defining functions of life (reproduction, response, etc.)
    Well that is precisely what a gastrula is. A group of cells (That have begun to differentiate) that make it living. They're capable of movement, they're capable of reproducing, they're capable of responding to external/internal stimuli, they're capable of nutrition and all the other factors that define a living organism.
    Can you provide a definition of an organism? I've always roughly worked off the one above, which is a bastardisation of one I learned many years ago.
    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Organism

    Simple and more or less precise.


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    #917
    KeithM89_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,806 ✭✭✭✭KeithM89_old


    Irishchick wrote: »
    Give a good reason why? Those pictures show the truth of abortion.

    People have this fairytale image of just removing a bunch of cells from a woman when it involves cutting up a foetus inside the womb and removing the pieces
    one by one.

    Its against site rules to post shocking images, and in future PM me instead of dragging it up on thread.


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    #918
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    *slowly exits thread:D


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    #919
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    AnonoBoy wrote: »
    Such compassion. People know what's involved. Especially someone who has gone through a termination.

    Your style of 'debate' doesn't even touch the realm of intelligent discussion. It's all hyperbole and hatred from people like you. Do you not have an ounce of compassion in you?

    This is what I don't get, if what irishchick says is true and so many women regret abortions, why would she post up images like that? Seems a tad self serving "compassion".

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #920
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    And she didn't have so much as a warning or an apology to anyone who might be upset by them.

    Some of these people should take some of that compassion they feel for the unborn and use it in how they deal with the living.


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    #921
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Knasher wrote: »
    I'll have to read up a bit on that before I would be willing to say if I would consider that enough, wikipedia says that the neural tube "will later differentiate into the spinal cord and the brain", so it sounds a little premature to me. But for the sake of argument lets say I agree that the right to life should be extended all the way back to neurulation, it wouldn't change my pro-choice stance. Your right to life is contingent on your ability to practice it without violating the rights of others.
    A mother doesn't have the right to kill her children just because she resents or doesn't want them though. It's not their fault. But if her child is going to kill her, then (To put it in a pretty horrible way) it would be ok for her to choose to kill the child in self-defence.


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    #922
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Well that is precisely what a gastrula is. A group of cells (That have begun to differentiate) that make it living. They're capable of movement, they're capable of reproducing, they're capable of responding to external/internal stimuli, they're capable of nutrition and all the other factors that define a living organism.


    http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Organism

    Simple and more or less precise.

    I guess I've found my point at which I disagree with abortion, days 7 to 10, which doesn't exactly leave much room for me calling myself pro-choice :pac:.

    I think my problem was I was defining organs, and organ systems, based too much on ones I recogonise and not leaving myself for simpler, more basic ones.

    Also, I appreciate the explanations, as oppose to just dismissing my objections (which no doubt would've been easier).


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    #923
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,505 ✭ [Deleted User]


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    A mother doesn't have the right to kill her children just because she resents or doesn't want them though. It's not their fault. But if her child is going to kill her, then (To put it in a pretty horrible way) it would be ok for her to choose to kill the child in self-defence.

    Killing your children and preventing their birth are two different things.


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    #924
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I guess I've found my point at which I disagree with abortion, days 7 to 10, which doesn't exactly leave much room for me calling myself pro-choice :pac:.

    I think my problem was I was defining organs, and organ systems, based too much on ones I recogonise and not leaving myself for simpler, more basic ones.

    Also, I appreciate the explanations, as oppose to just dismissing my objections (which no doubt would've been easier).
    Not a problem :)


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    #925
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    true-or-false wrote: »
    Killing your children and preventing their birth are two different things.
    Not really.

    Birth is inevitable. Whether or not the child comes out alive is another question.


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    #926
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    A mother doesn't have the right to kill her children just because she resents or doesn't want them though. It's not their fault.
    I'm not assigning blame on anyone. It's not the fault of the people who need marrow transplants, that they need the transplant. But we don't force the available donors (even if there is only one) to donate, because the right to life doesn't trump the right to bodily autonomy of another individual.


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    #927
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I guess I've found my point at which I disagree with abortion, days 7 to 10, which doesn't exactly leave much room for me calling myself pro-choice :pac:.

    I think my problem was I was defining organs, and organ systems, based too much on ones I recogonise and not leaving myself for simpler, more basic ones.

    Also, I appreciate the explanations, as oppose to just dismissing my objections (which no doubt would've been easier).
    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Not a problem :)

    Just a note, I'm reading through this paper [PDF] on the growth of a life. Going through it, and with some Googling, organogenesis seems to fit my own conditions for "human life" better. It might be an arbitrary distinction on my part but it sits better with me.

    Just thought I'd mention that for completion or whatever.

    Thanks again for the replies.


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    #928
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Knasher wrote: »
    I'm not assigning blame on anyone. It's not the fault of the people who need marrow transplants, that they need the transplant. But we don't force the available donors (even if there is only one) to donate, because the right to life doesn't trump the right to bodily autonomy of another individual.
    That's not a perfect analogy. The person's disease didn't come about as a result of the donor. The donor has nothing to do with their disease and is donating bone marrow solely out of kindness.

    As far as i'm concerned, if you bring a child in to the world, you should do your best to give it a good life. Whether that is by parenting the child yourself or (worst case scenario) putting them up for adoption it doesn't matter hugely. Just killing it and treating if as it was a parasite that infected your body and started to reproduce is nothing short of unjust.


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    #929
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Just a note, I'm reading through this paper [PDF] on the growth of a life. Going through it, and with some Googling, organogenesis seems to fit my own conditions for "human life" better. It might be an arbitrary distinction on my part but it sits better with me.

    Just thought I'd mention that for completion or whatever.

    Thanks again for the replies.
    You'll be happy to know organogenesis begins immediately during and after gastrulation :P


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    #930
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You'll be happy to know organogenesis begins immediately during and after gastrulation :P

    Ah, I'm so confused!!

    :D


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    #931
    WatchWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭WatchWolf


    So, you want proof abortion should be legal?



This discussion has been closed.
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