Abortion

chocolategirl

dark crystal wrote: »

I honestly can't imagine the desperation you must have felt to do that - my heart goes out to you.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but I hope you have some support around you.

Thank you soooooooo much for your kindness. xx

eviltwin

chocolategirl wrote: »

No Prinz, no. I don't think that at all. Lets go back to your post where you quoted out of my post only 'thanks' and then said get counselling or something very brief. Snide and dismissive I think another poster said it was. Doesn't dismissive mean shut up and go away really? You may have edited it, I really don't know but look you're in Ireland and shut up and go away is the general attitude to women or at least it was. And its a big shut up to anyone who doesnt' agree with you or as another poster described it 'vitriol' for being upset by and reacting to prinz. Now I'm not going to edit anything prinz but you just carry on trying to make yourself look better and knowing it all.

I have to say I agree with this. There is no support out there, what counselling there is isn't great, its luck of the draw. At the very least the Government could provide proper pre/post abortion counselling that is non directive and non judgemental.

I think some people want women to suffer, they see it as their punishment for doing a terrible thing and feck them they deserve it.

partyatmygaff

chocolategirl wrote: »

So sorry boys, the shut up pills haven't kicked in quite yet

Opposing elective abortion has nothing whatsoever to do with misogyny.

chocolategirl wrote: »

No Prinz, no. I don't think that at all. Lets go back to your post where you quoted out of my post only 'thanks' and then said get counselling or something very brief. Snide and dismissive I think another poster said it was. Doesn't dismissive mean shut up and go away really? You may have edited it, I really don't know but look you're in Ireland and shut up and go away is the general attitude to women or at least it was. And its a big shut up to anyone who doesnt' agree with you or as another poster described it 'vitriol' for being upset by and reacting to prinz. Now I'm not going to edit anything prinz but you just carry on trying to make yourself look better and knowing it all.

Personally... as someone who hasn't been involved in this whole exchange I think you're reading far too much in to him quoting the end of your post and advising you to get counseling.

I have no way of telling his intentions but normally i'd interpret that as someone "targeting a post" rather than being snide or dismissive. I.e. he wanted to make it clear he was talking to you (As it's a busy thread and saying "try some counseling" to a wide audience makes no sense) without unnecessarily clogging up the thread by quoting the post directly above his.

prinz

chocolategirl wrote: »

No Prinz, no. I don't think that at all...

So when I suggested counselling, and also explained why I cut down my quote from your post.. and you responded with

chocolategirl wrote: »

Ok Prinz we'll all scuttle off and get the counselling required and some valium to help us to shut up until such a day as national fun is announced and we get a big wink and a 'thumbs up' yay!

chocolategirl wrote: »

Now I'm not going to edit anything prinz but you just carry on trying to make yourself look better and knowing it all.

I didn't expect it. If you want to beat yourself up, do it. Don't bring me into it. I haven't suggested you scuttle away, or shut up, or take valium or anything of the sort. You're extrapolating negative connotations from something I explained meant nothing of the sort because that is what you want.

chocolategirl

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I have no way of telling his intentions but normally i'd interpret that as someone "targeting a post" rather than being snide or dismissive. I.e. he wanted to make it clear he was talking to you (As it's a busy thread and saying "try some counseling" to a wide audience makes no sense) without unnecessarily clogging up the thread by quoting the post directly above his.

Ah right, that's what it was then. Mea cupla so!

partyatmygaff

I can't tell, is that sarcastic or sincere?

(And no, this isn't some clever ploy to demonstrate to you how difficult it is to read tone and intentions on the internet, I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not)

chocolategirl

prinz wrote: »

So when I suggested counselling, and also explained why I cut down my quote from your post.. and you responded with







I didn't expect it. If you want to beat yourself up, do it. Don't bring me into it. I haven't suggested you scuttle away, or shut up, or take valium or anything of the sort. You're extrapolating negative connotations from something I explained meant nothing of the sort because that is what you want.

Prinz where did I get the flippant 'thumbs up to whatever' expression from? Wasn't it from you and don't you imagine when you think of a thumbs up that its a lighthearted thing almost likely to be accompanied by a wink. I thought it was you who brought thumbs up into this thread - or have you edited that out? i was merely mocking the sentiment - noone's looking for a 'thumbs up' here!

chocolategirl

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I can't tell, is that sarcastic or sincere?

(And no, this isn't some clever ploy to demonstrate to you how difficult it is to read tone and intentions on the internet, I genuinely don't know if you're being sarcastic or not)

Well if you can't tell then don't tell me that prinz tone was bloody innocent and I took it up wrong!

prinz

chocolategirl wrote: »

Ah right, that's what it was then. Mea cupla so!

Friends again? Like I said it wasn't meant to be snide or dismissive. If I tried to say I know what you're going through you'd castrate me, because I don't. Lesson learned, my first post should've been longer perhaps, but I didn't want to beat around the bush, I thought being direct would help.

partyatmygaff

chocolategirl wrote: »

Well if you can't tell then don't tell me that prinz tone was bloody innocent and I took it up wrong!

Haven't I already told you that? I don't know his intentions. I was only telling you that his post reflected the done thing in busy threads. People quote one word or one line of a post to target it instead of the whole post. Usually it's to try and stop things from getting cluttered.

prinz

chocolategirl wrote: »

Prinz where did I get the flippant 'thumbs up to whatever' expression from? Wasn't it from you and don't you imagine when you think of a thumbs up that its a lighthearted thing almost likely to be accompanied by a wink.

Yes it was, it was in response to a post which seemd to confuse compassion with unquestioning support. That's where I replied that compassion doesn't mean you support whatever somebody has done/will do. Yes it was meant lightheartedly and not literally, but you need that sometimes on threads such as this. Apologies if you took something else from it. Again I honestly think counselling would be beneficial to you, and I meant that sincerely.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

I think both the rights of the child and the welfare of the mother need to be considered. I have huge problems with the wish to ignore either.

Hard to ignore something that is not there. You have not successfully argued.... sorry let me correct that.... you have not even attempted to argue that the fetus HAS rights at all. You just declare it is so then just declare other people are ignoring it.

Stupify

What pro-lifers need to realize is abortion is legal, just not in Ireland.

And the question to be answered isn’t "Are you against abortion or not?” its "do you want to allow the Irish women who are having abortions in England have them in Ireland?".

The decision to have an abortion has already been made by the woman; she will travel to England if she has made that hard decision.

kowloon

I had high hopes that this thread would be the one to sort it all out.

charlietheminxx

kowloon wrote: »

I had high hopes that this thread would be the one to sort it all out.

People will never agree on it, but the law needs to be reviewed, definitely.

There just needs to be a referendum on it. Simple as. We can all argue ourselves in circles until the end of time about morals etc. If they introduce it, there needs to be strict measures in place and it needs to be tightly regulated.

Let the people decide.

Morag

Stupify wrote: »

What pro-lifers need to realize is abortion is legal, just not in Ireland.

And the question to be answered isn’t "Are you against abortion or not?” its "do you want to allow the Irish women who are having abortions in England have them in Ireland?".

The decision to have an abortion has already been made by the woman; she will travel to England if she has made that hard decision.

But abortion is currently legal under certain circumstances.
Abortions are carried out as a matter of course in the cases of ectopic pregnancies and is legal under not legislated for when there is a substantive risk to the life of the woman.

jackal

Sharrow wrote: »

But abortion is currently legal under certain circumstances.
Abortions are carried out as a matter of course in the cases of ectopic pregnancies and is legal under not legislated for when there is a substantive risk to the life of the woman.

That's just semantics. The fact is that if a woman wants an abortion, she can get one, just by hopping on a ferry. Between 4000-6000 Irish women have abortions every year.

But instead of that debate, we get the usual level of debate in Ireland about this subject which is along the lines of:

• I personally think that....
• So as a person who is a baby murderer, how...
• In my opinion...
• I am fundamentally against abortion...
• Its a slippery slope...
• Of course the mothers life should be protected, BUT in my opinion...
• I am neither a woman, nor will I ever be, but my thoughts on the matter are thus...

And on and on. Its irrelevant to the fact that women who want abortions are getting them, but their difficult choice is being made even more difficult by having to slope off to the UK to do it.

The poor people who have to terminate their baby's due to incompatibility with life, in Liverpool, cannot even bring their child's remains home with them for a burial.

St.Spodo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PLm3BJQVpI

kylith

jackal wrote: »

I am neither a woman, nor will I ever be, but my thoughts on the matter are thus...

You have to love that one. "I will never be in the position where I have to make a decision about whether or not to terminate a pregnancy, but my opinion is more valid than that of those who have been in that position."

Walk a mile in their shoes, folks.

Min

Stupify wrote: »

What pro-lifers need to realize is abortion is legal, just not in Ireland.

And the question to be answered isn’t "Are you against abortion or not?” its "do you want to allow the Irish women who are having abortions in England have them in Ireland?".

The decision to have an abortion has already been made by the woman; she will travel to England if she has made that hard decision.

The death penalty is legal, just not in Ireland. Euthanasia is legal, just not in Ireland. Prostititution is legal, just not in Ireland.

If something is legal somewhere else, it doesn't mean it is desireable or wanted here.Some will always want these things legalised, others will not.

Legal does not give a stamp of approval that something is right or wrong.

partyatmygaff

jackal wrote: »

That's just semantics. The fact is that if a woman wants an abortion, she can get one, just by hopping on a ferry. Between 4000-6000 Irish women have abortions every year.

That's not an argument. Just because people go to the UK for abortions doesn't mean we should make abortions available in Ireland. What other countries do and do not allow shouldn't influence what Ireland does and does not allow.

I am neither a woman, nor will I ever be, but my thoughts on the matter are thus...

You don't need to be a woman to have an opinion about elective abortion, only human.

The poor people who have to terminate their baby's due to incompatibility with life, in Liverpool, cannot even bring their child's remains home with them for a burial.

I don't think many people disagree with therapeutic abortion. The main issue people have is with elective abortion.

Min

Abortion is not just an issue for women, we all lived in a womb for roughly nine months of our lives.

Seachmall

Min wrote: »

The death penalty is legal, just not in Ireland. Euthanasia is legal, just not in Ireland. Prostititution is legal, just not in Ireland.

If something is legal somewhere else, it doesn't mean it is desireable or wanted here.Some will always want these things legalised, others will not.

Legal does not give a stamp of approval that something is right or wrong.

What he's saying is that in effect it is legal, in that it is being done widespread with minimal inconvenience with no punishment. It may be the law of the land but it's a technicality of a law because in practice abortions can be performed without recourse relatively easily.

Euthanasia, on the other hand, is often impractical to get done, so the law is effective in that respect.

And prostitution is legal in Ireland.

AckwelFoley

There's no right or wrong in this debate. Everybody has an opinion and unlike most debates all opinions other than ones held in a religious context hold merit.


Put simply, I support a woman's right to have an abortion.

Min

Seachmall wrote: »

What he's saying is that in effect it is legal, in that it is being done widespread with minimal inconvenience with no punishment. It may be the law of the land but it's a technicality of a law because in practice abortions can be performed without recourse relatively easily.

Euthanasia, on the other hand, is often impractical to get done, so the law is effective in that respect.

And prostitution is legal in Ireland.

You can be done for murder if you kill the unborn in Ireland, given both the mother and unborn have a right to life.
This is why Michelle Mulherne said in her speech in the Dáil that abortion is murder, it is what the law says given the unborn has the same right to life as the mother.
This is why 4 years ago a Filipino woman fled the country after she performed an abortion, as she was wanted for questioning by the Gardai.

Prostitution may be legal in a sense but solictiting for paid sex, running a brothel and being a pimp are illegal, and the government are considering criminalising the person who uses prostitutes rather than the prostitutes.
To say it is legal is to ignore all the restrictions which in itself makes it illegal, one can't just ask a woman or a man if they are a prostitute.
The legality of prostitution is akin to be a person who has a sexual attraction to children, in itself not illegal, just illegal if the paedophile acted on it.
That is how the law is regarding prostitution for the most part.

Seachmall

Min wrote: »

You can be done for murder if you kill the unborn in Ireland, given both the mother and unborn have a right to life.
This is why Michelle Mulherne said in her speech in the Dáil that abortion is murder, it is what the law says given the unborn has the same right to life as the mother.
This is why 4 years ago a Filipino woman fled the country after she performed an abortion, as she was wanted for questioning by the Gardai.

The point being made is that one can, with relative ease, have an abortion without fear of prosecution. That is why he says abortion is legal in a practical sense.

Prostitution may be legal in a sense but solictiting for paid sex...

...is legal, and is the definition of prostitution.

hooradiation

Min wrote: »

Abortion is not just an issue for women, we all lived in a womb for roughly nine months of our lives.

Yes, lived, past tense.
The fact that we all gestated doesn't automatically confer the status of "an issue" on half the population.

Stupify

Min wrote: »

The death penalty is legal, just not in Ireland. Euthanasia is legal, just not in Ireland. Prostititution is legal, just not in Ireland.

If something is legal somewhere else, it doesn't mean it is desireable or wanted here.Some will always want these things legalised, others will not.

Legal does not give a stamp of approval that something is right or wrong.

All I'm saying is this; the fact that you can't have abortions here isn't lowering the number of Irish women having abortions. Not while England which is so close and so easy to travel to have legalized abortions.

Edit: I'm not arguing right and wrong. I just want to bring cold logic to the table and take away the emotion that this subject always brings up.

Morag

Ok then if it's illegal to have an abortion here, when was the last time any woman was prosecuted for it?

prinz

Seachmall wrote: »

...is legal, and is the definition of prostitution.

Except of course for public places, streets etc. Not to get into the whole are of advertising services and/or brothels and pimping.