Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 (End of March 2012 onwards)

Mr Alan wrote: »

Who do you want as manager then Whatawaster?

Any if/when he doesn't get back into top four at his first bite of the cherry (which to be fair, would be very likely with the increased competiveness of the league), who do you want after that?

Ill reply to this on lunch

PaulieC wrote: »

Perhaps but I lost it at one stage yesterday - he had a really tight angle - Carroll and Kuyt lining up in the square for a tap in and he shoots it at Carson.

Gerrard can be selfish at times but I don't think I've seen such selfish play from a 'pool player in some time, I nearly roared the house down when he did it.

Indeed, it was such a tap in I doubt even they'd have missed!

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Kenny can't throw a jersey on and stick it in the net himself anymore (more's the pity). He set the team up well, they played West Brom off the park and, somehow, lost.

As a fan, I will get angry if players aren't trying; if they lose all their battles and are second best on the pitch. But if they're unlucky? Nobody to blame for that imo.

But it is Kenny's job to get the team ready mentally and choose tactics, seems like a fail on both.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Can they get to the final of two in one season?

Middlesbrough 96/97

Was looking at the table there Christ its depressing.
Our aim at the start of the year was top 4 and we are currently 16 points off it were only 15 points ahead of relegation.
There has to be changes in the summer in personnel and I feel kennys time is coming to an end which is a shame as I'm sure we all would love to see him being a massive success.

I think Dalglish would make an excellent Director of Football. I cannot see him been given another season. He seemed pretty downbeat in the interview yesterday. It sounded like he had just been sacked. The decision has probably been made by FSG at this stage.

kevohmsford wrote: »

I think Dalglish would make an excellent Director of Football. I cannot see him been given another season. He seemed pretty downbeat in the interview yesterday. It sounded like he had just been sacked. The decision has probably been made by FSG at this stage.

If FSG have told him he's not going to be staying now then it's the right call - it will allow them to look for a replacement without the type of drama around H&G trying to get Klinsmann behind Rafas back.

I'd keep Kenny in the club as an ambassador but not as a DOF - that said I would most certainly have him involved in looking for a replacement shoule he be open to that. I think he'd know what kind of manager is required for this squad.

Would anyone be happy with winning three cups next season and finishing 10th? I doubt it, and nobody should, because our short term goal has to be to get back into the Champions League. It is the only way we will have the financial muscle to compete and also to attract the best possible players to the club.

When judging a season, I think you have to assign varying importance to different competitions. I think the league is number one for most people, with Champions League close behind. For me anyway, FA Cup, Carling Cup, Europa League etc are all distant third at best. I don’t want to belittle our cup runs this season, because we’ve done fantastically well, and we’d all be suicidal without them. Cup wins make great seasons legendary, they make good seasons great and they probably make terrible seasons tolerable.

My assessment of this season:
PL Performance 2/10 (80% weighting)
FA Cup Performance 9/10 (10% weighting)
Carling Cup Performance 10/10 (10% weighting)

Overall – 3.5/10 – ie: collective failure. It might be a crude way of evaluating a season, but 3 or 4 out of 10 seems about right to me. It certainly how I feel about it.


My concerns with Dalglish are:
The calibre of player he has targeted: So far since his return he has by and large targeted over-priced, over-rated British players. Downing, Carroll, Henderson and Adam being the ones we actually signed. Ashley Young being the bullet we dodged. When you look at the quality of players who have been traded around Europe for very modest sums in the past 12 months it is very concerning. He thought Stewart Downing was the best winger 20m could buy last summer. Again, very worrying. I don’t want him in charge of our transfers in the summer.

His selections: I’m not a fan, but Maxi has been treated very poorly this season. He goes missing for vast stretches of games, but we’d have more goals and be higher up the table if he’d gotten more games this season. Henderson and Adam have been poor this season, but were picked time after time. Many fans were crying out for Shelvey all season. He finally gets his chance, and does well, but then he is dropped again. I feel he has been too conservative with his selections. At times we have had four defenders on the bench. That’s not just silly, it’s moronic. You can’t bring on four defenders (nor would you want to) so you should drop two of them and give some young players some bench experience.


In terms of who I want to replace Kenny – my list would include Pellegrini, Deschamps, Emery, Bielsa, Martinez, Klopp

Despite what you might think – I am willing to give a manager time, as much time as they need, actually, so long as they are doing the right things. But if I don’t think they are taking the club in the right direction then I want them replaced. I think we are going backwards at the minute.

The best thing (imo) that can happen this summer is for us to finally get the clearout of deadwood that we should have got two years ago - Aurelio, Carragher (no chance, unfortunately), Maxi, Kuyt (thanks!), Adam and Downing should be scrapped for whatever we can get for them. That will free up funds and it would also hugely ease the wage bill.
We build around the quality senior players we have – Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Suarez, Gerrard and our signings should focus on those attributes in which we are lacking, namely pace, skill, pace, skill and pace and in those positions in which we are weakest (wing, CM and CF)

Just back in Limerick.

Yet another game that left me shaking my head. We were the better team, but not having a finisher in the team hurt us yet again.

Carroll worked harder yesterday than I have seen him do all season. He grafted more than normal. But he showed yet again that in terms of being a finisher he is badly lacking, and his reading of the game is bloody awful. Granted his fee is not his fault, but for £35m spent one would be excused for expecting a finished product type player and not what is looking more and more like a very limited player who had a good half season of form at his last club in this division. He needs to be replaced by a striker who can actually score. If I wanted to see a limited player who works hard but who is pretty useless generally in front of goal, then I am sure that Heskey could be got pretty cheap. Carroll is trying, he is looking to work hard, but there is no way I would want to risk another season with him as the number 9.

Suarez was sublime at times yesterday and he must have created at least a half dozen good chances that flashed across the goal, but the only player that seemed to be reacting to those chances was Agger, a bloody centre back whilst our number nine (a number that once meant you were a goal scorer at this club) was nowhere near the six yard box.

We did look more fluid from out wide though and I put that down to Maxi and Kuyt getting to work in tandem with Suarez. Intelligent players will always mean more chances, and if we had a striker with brains and who could score, then yesterday might have seen three or four goals go past WBA.

Our CMs yesterday tried hard but looked very very limited in terms of the creative side of the game. They also looked very poor in terms of anticipation and positioning at times, but that was not a major problem given the lack of quality that WBA have in CM.

Johnson made a very costly mistake yesterday which was a shame as his general play had been good to that point, but at the end of the day his error was the difference between one point and no points.

Pepe was quite good in goal yesterday and his time off seems to have given him an energy boost. A couple of good saves plus he was back to his quick distribution game.

Agger was very good yesterday and he was certainly a man on a mission all game. Was very obvious he wanted to beat WBA because of Hodgson. He worked hard in defence, in the centre, and up front, and it was great to see his calm organising of the defence.

But one thing that sickened me, and it would seem most of the crowd yesterday, was how the majority of the team just switched off and gave up on the game in the final ten minutes of so.

Agger, Suarez, Skrtel, Reina, Enrique, and Shelvey all seemed to have the stomach for a fight to the finish, but everyone else that I have not named pretty much rolled over and quit, and they stunk of players who have given up on the league and who are just thinking of the cup final. Personally if they want to pick and chose what games they want to mnake an effort in whilst in a Liverpoool shirt, then they can fcuk off and be wasters at some other club.

Tactically we seemed to have no b plan yesterday to try and capitalise on having loads of possession but no penetration. There was no clever switch of formation, no taking advantage of who was showing figtht etc etc, and there was plenty to show that although we still lost to West Brom that we might have been mauled in certain areas of the pitch had we been up against a less frail team than WBA.

Now we are at a point where a 7th place finish is the best we can aim for and even getting that is far from certain, and a finish outside the top half of the table is a very real threat if players don't start fighting for the shirt.

This will be three seasons in a row as a mid table team. At some point people need to stop blaming bad luck and what not. The club is, imho of course, on the cusp of becoming a full time mid table team rather than a club that is just waiting for players to settle or finally click.

Some serious changes are needed this summer. Some genuine quality needs to come in rather than over priced and untalented British players. We need to bring in real talent for the weak positions and it does not matter if those weak positions are currently held by players that cost £20m or more. A price tag is not a good enough reason to keep playing a player who is not producing.

Some ruthlessness is needed in terms of trimming the current squad. Some players need to be shipped out. Some players need to become bit part players regardless of their past reputations.

Is a new manager needed? I can think of strong arguements as to why one is needed, but at the same time I can certainly think of reasons for the current one to stay as long as he is able to be utterly ruthless this summer with the squad and be open to bringing in genuine talent and not just look at British muck.

We have a cup final to look forward to, and it will be a great day out, but there are plenty of players whose performances stink of only being cup players, and any mid table team can have that sort of player.

Me, I want the cup runs, but I want them with players who want to do their best in a Liverpool shirt every time they pull it on and not just when there is a big day out..

whatawaster wrote: »

Would anyone be happy with winning three cups next season and finishing 10th? I doubt it, and nobody should, because our short term goal has to be to get back into the Champions League. It is the only way we will have the financial muscle to compete and also to attract the best possible players to the club.

When judging a season, I think you have to assign varying importance to different competitions. I think the league is number one for most people, with Champions League close behind. For me anyway, FA Cup, Carling Cup, Europa League etc are all distant third at best. I don’t want to belittle our cup runs this season, because we’ve done fantastically well, and we’d all be suicidal without them. Cup wins make great seasons legendary, they make good seasons great and they probably make terrible seasons tolerable.

My assessment of this season:
PL Performance 2/10 (80% weighting)
FA Cup Performance 9/10 (10% weighting)
Carling Cup Performance 10/10 (10% weighting)

Overall – 3.5/10 – ie: collective failure. It might be a crude way of evaluating a season, but 3 or 4 out of 10 seems about right to me. It certainly how I feel about it.


My concerns with Dalglish are:
The calibre of player he has targeted: So far since his return he has by and large targeted over-priced, over-rated British players. Downing, Carroll, Henderson and Adam being the ones we actually signed. Ashley Young being the bullet we dodged. When you look at the quality of players who have been traded around Europe for very modest sums in the past 12 months it is very concerning. He thought Stewart Downing was the best winger 20m could buy last summer. Again, very worrying. I don’t want him in charge of our transfers in the summer.

His selections: I’m not a fan, but Maxi has been treated very poorly this season. He goes missing for vast stretches of games, but we’d have more goals and be higher up the table if he’d gotten more games this season. Henderson and Adam have been poor this season, but were picked time after time. Many fans were crying out for Shelvey all season. He finally gets his chance, and does well, but then he is dropped again. I feel he has been too conservative with his selections. At times we have had four defenders on the bench. That’s not just silly, it’s moronic. You can’t bring on four defenders (nor would you want to) so you should drop two of them and give some young players some bench experience.


In terms of who I want to replace Kenny – my list would include Pellegrini, Deschamps, Emery, Bielsa, Martinez, Klopp

Despite what you might think – I am willing to give a manager time, as much time as they need, actually, so long as they are doing the right things. But if I don’t think they are taking the club in the right direction then I want them replaced. I think we are going backwards at the minute.

The best thing (imo) that can happen this summer is for us to finally get the clearout of deadwood that we should have got two years ago - Aurelio, Carragher (no chance, unfortunately), Maxi, Kuyt (thanks!), Adam and Downing should be scrapped for whatever we can get for them. That will free up funds and it would also hugely ease the wage bill.
We build around the quality senior players we have – Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Suarez, Gerrard and our signings should focus on those attributes in which we are lacking, namely pace, skill, pace, skill and pace and in those positions in which we are weakest (wing, CM and CF)

I agree with the crux of your post and the logic behind weighting competitions. I would maybe not be as harsh as you, (and also I think the Champions League is a slightly bigger trophy to win rather than the domestic league. Because of our history the league would be sweeter, but overall the CL is just about a bigger trophy). Also, I would attach slight more importance on the FA Cup, as there is still prestige attached to it, a trophy that all clubs want to win, and was the one biggish trophy we could realistically have won this year. I wanted us to go all out for the FA Cup this year. This is how I think the owners are probably looking at it.

Premiership (70%): 3/10
FA Cup (20%): Either 8 or 10 depending on the result in the final
League Cup (10%): 10

If you look at it that way and take 50% as the bare minimum to be expected, overall our season can probably be classed as just about a failure. An FA Cup win would maybe just about class it as acceptable. Cups are great but I'm not sure if they're bringing the club forward in the long-term.


As for the owners, looking at Kenny's performance (let's just base this on results, although I agree on a lot of the points about Kenny not being completely responsible for bad finishing, woodwork etc...), taking the importance of each competition into account, this is how they might look at it:

League: A success would be reaching top 4. A challenge for top four could be classed as acceptable.

To not even challenge for the top 4, be out of the running in February and to not even make the 'top 6' of which we consider ourselves a part is a massive failure.

Very Disappointing. (-50%)


FA Cup: Winning it would be a success. Getting to the final would also be considered good and a semi-final exit would be acceptable.

If we win the FA Cup it would be +20% for Kenny, if we lose +10%

League Cup: The League Cup win was great, but to be honest there shouldn't even be expectations before it. It should be seen as a bonus cup, and should be used to blood the likes of Sterling. Still a cup's a cup and it was great to win it.

+10%

So overall, I think the owners (and even us as fans) should (on a result basis) see Kenny as having a negative rating and having underachieved.

Now I might cut Kenny some slack, because we have been desperately unlucky in a number of games this year, and I think he has set us up well for the most part, dominating games and usually playing decent stuff.

But I would completely understand the owners if they were to move him aside. Overall this season has not been good enough. Longterm, maybe we need a younger manager with a longterm plan (remember Kenny was initially an interim) to take the club forward.

I'm a bit on the fence, but when you look at the facts objectively I think I would be leaning towards the 'Kenny Out' camp.

you know I just wondered...

why does this thread even exist...its pure formulaic lately

liverpool should win...they lose, lots of chances, spend the week talking about the glaring problems while battling trolls, following weekend, liverpool should win, they lose/disappoint...rinse and repeat.

An aside, but we're going to be big underdogs in the final and I don't think that is a particularly bad thing tbh.

K-9 wrote: »

The other moment was the Suarez magic and the wild shot, in fairness how was he to know we had 3 players in the box? What's the odds of that?

I've already mentioned that incident but the way you've worded this annoys me

It's genuinely as though Suarez is exempt from being criticised because he works so many openings - but at the end of the day he didn't do what was required of him - he shot when he should've passed which he CONSTANTLY does and it's infuriating.

If I was playing on the same team as Luis yesterday I'd have lost it completely with him.

He has been the one bright spark of our season and one of the few who looks like he's a quality player but if Carroll had done what Suarez did yesterday there'd be a few pages of whining on this thread without doubt.

amiable wrote: »

Rumours that Xavi Valero is to return

So what you're saying is Kenny is resigning and Rafa is coming back?;)