Should Ireland reintroduce capital punishment?

bananarama22 · 23-04-2012 11:08AM

ejmaztec wrote: »

Probably because the woman is nuts.

Insanity does not cause you to nuke a child, especially your own. Put her in a microwave

Dannyg90 · 23-04-2012 11:11AM

A must harsher punishment would be life imprisonment without parole in solitary confinement where food is pushed into your cell through a trap. With a rule that any contact with prison officers would be silent, also ban visitors. The criminals would soon go mad with zero outside contact or human interaction and they'd have the whole time to think about their crimes

token101 · 23-04-2012 11:17AM

bananarama22 wrote: »

Well perjury which results in the execution or imprisonment of an innocent person...

Not for silly things like "I'm sorry your honour, but I forgot I had no insurance or TV license", WINK WINK :cool:

You do realise that when someone's life is on the line, they have nothing to lose! So they'll probably lie! So you'll be executing a lot of innocent people aswell? How about just not executing people?

Snickers Man · 23-04-2012 11:20AM

"Only in sever cases" ???

Quite right! Those who chop bits off deserve to get the chop.

Chop! Chop!

Actually, being only slightly less facetious, I take the view that there are enough chances of lunatics ending my life prematurely (muggers, drunk drivers, drug addicts, mad Norwegian racists) without giving the state the judicial right to do so as well.

So no. And we have spoken as a people in a referendum a few years ago so the government CAN'T introduce the death penalty even if they wanted to.

Without holding a second referendum, that is.

ejmaztec · 23-04-2012 11:29AM

bananarama22 wrote: »

Insanity does not cause you to nuke a child, especially your own. Put her in a microwave

Yes, it's a perfectly sane thing to do, I'm surprised "baby microwavers" isn't registered as a charity.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 11:35AM

bananarama22 wrote: »

Some of the hard-right politicians in the UK want to reinstate it.

That's because they're pandering to the stupidest elements in the electorate.

Sergeant · 23-04-2012 11:35AM

Something pretty primitive and medieval about killing someone to show people that killing someone is wrong.

jack presley · 23-04-2012 11:39AM

bananarama22 wrote: »

jack presley wrote: »

An I missing something OP? That woman hasn't even gone on trial yet so how can her sentence be reduced? And even if (when) she is found guilty, an execution would takes years to be carried so if she is pregnant at the moment (no mention in that article) her kid would probably be a teenager before she was executed.

But it says prosecuters are not looking for execution.

Yeah that as well. I don't know why the OP picked that case as an example. There has been no trial yet, the prosecution aren't looking for the death penalty etc.

token101 · 23-04-2012 11:40AM

bananarama22 wrote: »

Then tell the EU to fcek off :-P
Some of the hard-right politicians in the UK want to reinstate it.

Which 'hard right' politicians? So Ireland should take its cues from the BNP and UKIP now?

MellowToast · 23-04-2012 11:42AM

human rights keep getting in the way of proper punishment for scum

people who have no idea how terrible humans can be tend to not want capital punishment

prisons are just a different word for hotel imo

the vast majority commit criminal acts again when they are set free

it is very hard to know what should be done. the only belife I have is if you take some1s life then your human rights should be ripped from you. that includes clean water (they should be given disease ridden water) and the likes. this is never gona happen in my life time and i am only 23...so lets just not employ anyone who has been in prison (haha which is already the case). they already have their criminal jobs, they don't need 2nd chances from good people, who should give those jobs to other good people. their bad people that end up in prison, why should we care if they can't get a job, if their 12 offspring are hungry or if they have no education.

people make their own choices in life, that effect the kids as well i know, but bad people will make bad choices for themselves and set bad examples to their offspring. good people make good choices in life and so their offspring will excel at life. this is what the world has ALWAYS been like.

bad people will never change is my point, they will just get worse with every generation.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 11:46AM

MellowToast wrote: »

human rights keep getting in the way of proper punishment for scum

people who have no idea how terrible humans can be tend to not want capital punishment

prisons are just a different word for hotel imo

the vast majority commit criminal acts again when they are set free

it is very hard to know what should be done. the only belife I have is if you take some1s life then your human rights should be ripped from you. that includes clean water (they should be given disease ridden water) and the likes. this is never gona happen in my life time and i am only 23...so lets just not employ anyone who has been in prison (haha which is already the case). they already have their criminal jobs, they don't need 2nd chances from good people, who should give those jobs to other good people. their bad people that end up in prison, why should we care if they can't get a job, if their 12 offspring are hungry or if they have no education.

people make their own choices in life, that effect the kids as well i know, but bad people will make bad choices for themselves and set bad examples to their offspring. good people make good choices in life and so their offspring will excel at life. this is what the world has ALWAYS been like.

bad people will never change is my point, they will just get worse with every generation.

How simply fascinating. Please, tell me more of your well reasoned views.

frag420 · 23-04-2012 11:54AM

MellowToast wrote: »

human rights keep getting in the way of proper punishment for scum

people who have no idea how terrible humans can be tend to not want capital punishment

prisons are just a different word for hotel imo

the vast majority commit criminal acts again when they are set free

it is very hard to know what should be done. the only belife I have is if you take some1s life then your human rights should be ripped from you. that includes clean water (they should be given disease ridden water) and the likes. this is never gona happen in my life time and i am only 23...so lets just not employ anyone who has been in prison (haha which is already the case). they already have their criminal jobs, they don't need 2nd chances from good people, who should give those jobs to other good people. their bad people that end up in prison, why should we care if they can't get a job, if their 12 offspring are hungry or if they have no education.

people make their own choices in life, that effect the kids as well i know, but bad people will make bad choices for themselves and set bad examples to their offspring. good people make good choices in life and so their offspring will excel at life. this is what the world has ALWAYS been like.

bad people will never change is my point, they will just get worse with every generation.

Lets kill bad people. Then we can all go up to the old mill and drink some cider......................

Carlos_Ray · 23-04-2012 12:17PM

In my opinion, some form of capital punishment will be reintroduced over the next two hundred years. As the worlds population continues to explode, the gap between the rich and poor increases, and violent crime rate continues to rise. Its inevitable.

Personally I agree with the death penalty for heinous crimes. I know its not a deterrent and doesn't effect violent crime rates, however, if carried out correctly and efficiently it can save the state millions of euro.

It costs the guts of 100,000 to hold one person in prison in Ireland for a year. (I think its around 77,000 per inmate). It would cost significantly less to terminate the life of a sadistic killer or Paedophile within the first year of his/her conviction than to keep them locked up with digital TV for the rest of his life. Some of the money saved by the state could be pumped back into the failing health or education system.

I think the moral question is pretty simple. Is it better to extinguish the life of an evil person in order to direct much needed resources towards the good people in society. I think the answer is yes, and in the future the practical nature of it will make it hard to ignore.

I'd even go a step further and enforce organ donations. That way the killer would be repaying some of the debt he owes to society. Its practical, it makes sense.

Ush1 · 23-04-2012 12:20PM

Watch the documentary Into The Abyss.

Death penalty really solves nothing and is not a deterrent.

bananarama22 · 23-04-2012 12:21PM

What about the "charming gentleman" who danced on the head of that poor Polish man here to make a living "just for the buzz".

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 12:22PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I think the moral question is pretty simple. Is it better to extinguish the life of an evil person in order to direct much needed resources towards the good people in society. I think the answer is yes, and in the future the practical nature of it will make it hard to ignore.

Except that's not the question you should be asking yourself.

The question is - If we introduced the death penalty, we must first accept that innocent people will incorrectly sentenced to death. Is this permissible?

The answer is pretty simple. No it is not.

frag420 · 23-04-2012 12:22PM

I disagree about the organs. I saw a movie once where they donated the organs of a killer and the recipient of the organs took on the persona of the dead killer and started killing. It was one vicious circle of murder!!;)

Besides imagine waking up after a transplant and being told you have Joseph Fritzls kidney or Larry Murphies lung..........................fook that!!

Ush1 · 23-04-2012 12:25PM

hooradiation wrote: »

Except that's not the question you should be asking yourself.

The question is - If we introduced the death penalty, we must first accept that innocent people will incorrectly sentenced to death. Is this permissible?

The answer is pretty simple. No it is not.

Not to mention it's inaccurate.

Capital murder trials and the keeping of prisoners on death row is a massive financial drain, much more so than other types of prisoners so it's not actually saving money by killing them at all.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 12:30PM

Ush1 wrote: »

Not to mention it's inaccurate.

Capital murder trials and the keeping of prisoners on death row is a massive financial drain, much more so than other types of prisoners so it's not actually saving money by killing them at all.

Well, people who back the return of the death penalty seem to have very loose grasps on things like due process and human rights, I was looking to show why it's a terrible idea without offering any chance to couch their reply in their misunderstandings.

Though you are perfectly correct in your reasoning.

Carlos_Ray · 23-04-2012 12:33PM

hooradiation wrote: »

except that's not the question you should be asking yourself.

The question is - If we introduced the death penalty, we must first accept that innocent people will incorrectly sentenced to death. Is this permissible?

The answer is pretty simple. No it is not.

Well the same can be said for any form of human advancement. Thousands upon thousands of innocent people are killed every year because of motor vehicles, electricity, and plenty of other human endeavours.

Furthermore plenty of innocent people have served life sentences in prison but I don't hear anybody calling for prisons to be abolished.

The number of innocent people executed in the United States is minuscule now. The advances in DNA technology and the body of evidence needed to convict someone has greatly improved the process.

The termination of faulty dangerous humans, and the redirection of financial and biological resources can only be of benefit to society in the long run. How many sick and dying people in Ireland are waiting in hospital beds for heart transplants etc? How many remorseless killers are sitting in their cells enjoying their pathetic 7 year sentence. The solution is clear to me.

Wibbs · 23-04-2012 12:42PM

tigger123 wrote: »

The death penalty is state sanctioned murder, no more, no less. And it's also revenge, not justice IMO.

I'd agree with this. It's too clinical and cold blooded for me. If say a bloke came home to find someone beating/raping his girlfriend and gutted the scumbag like a fish, I'd not be crying for said scumbag. However waiting 5 years after trials and appeals to then strap them to a gurney with full state participation is just wrong to me.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 12:44PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Well the same can be said for any form of human advancement. Thousands upon thousands of innocent people are killed every year because of motor vehicles, electricity, and plenty of other human endeavours.

faulty analogy.
We don't use those things as punishment for crimes, which is what we're supposed to be talking about here.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Furthermore plenty of innocent people have served life sentences in prison but I don't hear anybody calling for prisons to be abolished.

The difference being you can release people who have been incorrectly incarcerated, and compensate them somewhat for their loss of freedom. It's not perfect, but it's not irrevocable either.

However, we aren't able to raise the dead.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

The number of innocent people executed in the United States is minuscule now. The advances in DNA technology and the body of evidence needed to convict someone has greatly improved the process.

Ignoring the big honking [citation needed] for your assertion on the US, you're still betraying a more fundamental flaw in your reasoning.
You're ok with the fact that innocent people will be killed if the death penalty were introduced.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

The termination of faulty dangerous humans, and the redirection of financial and biological resources can only be of benefit to society in the long run. How many sick and dying people in Ireland are waiting in hospital beds for heart transplants etc? How many remorseless killers are sitting in their cells enjoying their pathetic 7 year sentence. The solution is clear to me.

I'm not sure which is worse, the leap you've made from not being happy with sentencing means you need to move right up to executions or that you're painting your poorly reasoned stance as some kind of virtuous act because you're asserting that the "money saved" (the reasoning that there would be savings is, in and off itself, wrong) could be used for sick people.

It's a very special kind of utilitarian thinking that would spin a fantasy like that.

Skid · 23-04-2012 12:51PM

The option in the Poll for 'Forced Labour camps' is just a bit too Nazi sounding.

I might have given it a vote if it said something like 'Mandatory Public Works Programmes'

Carlos_Ray · 23-04-2012 01:06PM

hooradiation wrote: »

faulty analogy.
We don't use those things as punishment for crimes, which is what we're supposed to be talking about here.

But we use them to better society, which is what I'm talking about.

hooradiation wrote: »

The difference being you can release people who have been incorrectly incarcerated, and compensate them somewhat for their loss of freedom. It's not perfect, but it's not irrevocable either.

However, we aren't able to raise the dead.

Really, how exactly do you compensate someone for locking them up in a cell their whole life? You can't. The fact that they were granted their "life" is in many ways worse for them. If I was convicted as innocent man I'd rather be executed then spend 50 years of my life in prison. In fact, I like may people would kill myself. That's a death sentence in itself, but a lot of people ignore it because it satisfies their conscience.

hooradiation wrote: »

Ignoring the big honking [citation needed] for your assertion on the US, you're still betraying a more fundamental flaw in your reasoning.
You're ok with the fact that innocent people will be killed if the death penalty were introduced.

I think you're the one that needs a citation. If you disagree with what I said then I suggest you find something that backs your opinion up. I believe that the American justice system is one of the best in the world. Just check up on the long list of convicts currently on death row. Convicted by a jury of their peers. If you think they're innocent ....prove it.

hooradiation wrote: »

I'm not sure which is worse, the leap you've made from not being happy with sentencing means you need to move right up to executions or that you're painting your poorly reasoned stance as some kind of virtuous act because you're asserting that the "money saved" (the reasoning that there would be savings is, in and off itself, wrong) could be used for sick people.

No, you're the one that made a connection with the poor sentencing and the death penalty. I merely mentioned them both exclusively.Do I believe that the sentencing in Ireland is a joke? Yes. Is that why I believe in the death penalty? no. I believe in it regardless of the sentencing, because as I said it can be used in a way to benefit society both financially and medically. I'm concerned with practical benefits to society, not wishy washy moral ideals that result in a society that channels more money into the villains than the victims.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-04-2012 01:08PM

Where's the, "no, **** your death penalty you bloodthirsty* bastards, but I am in favour of harsher non-capital sentences."

*yes, yes, you are. On a base level, here's no other reason for it.

hooradiation · 23-04-2012 01:21PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

But we use them to better society, which is what I'm talking about.

That makes the assumption that the reintroduction of the death penalty would be for the betterment of society.
So far that case has not been made.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Really, how exactly do you compensate someone for locking them up in a cell their whole life? You can't. The fact that they were granted their "life" is in many ways worse for them. If I was convicted as innocent man I'd rather be executed then spend 50 years of my life in prison. In fact, I like may people would kill myself. That's a death sentence in itself, but a lot of people ignore it because it satisfies their conscience.

Then, feel free to kill yourself should you ever be in such a situation.

However the fact remains that one form of punishment is permanent, the other is not.
Which if we're going to both agree that the justice system is fallible then I'm puzzled how you can seriously then argue that an imperfect system handing out permanent punishments is the best possible system.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I think you're the one that needs a citation. If you disagree with what I said then I suggest you find something that backs your opinion up. I believe that the American justice system is one of the best in the world. Just check up on the long list of convicts currently on death row. Convicted by a jury of their peers. If you think they're innocent ....prove it.

You really no idea how burden of proof works
Here's a quick crash course - when you assert that something is factually correct, such as "The number of innocent people executed in the United States is minuscule now" then the onus is on you to demonstrate that your statement is true, if asked.

Also, I find it telling that your reasoning for believing your unfounded opinion on the US system is fact is predicated on volume of prisoners on death row and that seeing as they are on death row they are, ipso facto, guilty.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc at it's most obvious.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I believe in it regardless of the sentencing, because as I said it can be used in a way to benefit society both financially and medically.

And yet, despite insisting the financial benefits of reintroducing the death penalty, you've so far been unable to demonstrate how this would work.

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I'm concerned with practical benefits to society, not wishy washy moral ideals that result in a society that channels more money into the villains than the victims.

You are not concerned with anything of the sort, you have bad ideas poorly reasoned and you're insistent that they make sense.
You're more concerned with revenge than anything else, as demonstrated by the misguided notion that incarcerating people is somehow channelling money into these 'villians'
How does that work, exactly?

And "wishywashy morals"? Yeah... how dare people try and hold themselves to standards a little higher than base impulses.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 23-04-2012 01:24PM

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

.... I'm concerned with practical benefits to society, not wishy washy moral ideals that result in a society that channels more money into the villains than the victims.

Give examples of the two phrases in bold, please.

Logical Fallacy · 23-04-2012 01:29PM

bananarama22 wrote: »

For violent crimes I seriously believe that capital punishment should exist in this country, for crimes such as murder, rape, drug dealing, gang membership, several criminal records, espionage/treason and perjury resulting in the imprisonment of an innocent person.

Why?

Anything I have read about it tells me capital punishment does not do anything to drop the level of related crime.

As such, do you want capital punishment because you feel it is a worthwhile deterrent or do you want it out of some misplaced moralistic reasoning?

Personally I agree with the death penalty for heinous crimes. I know its not a deterrent and doesn't effect violent crime rates, however, if carried out correctly and efficiently it can save the state millions of euro.

It costs the guts of 100,000 to hold one person in prison in Ireland for a year. (I think its around 77,000 per inmate). It would cost significantly less to terminate the life of a sadistic killer or Paedophile within the first year of his/her conviction than to keep them locked up with digital TV for the rest of his life. Some of the money saved by the state could be pumped back into the failing health or education system.

I have no idea where you got that idea.

Lets look at the US. Average cost per prisoner per year is around 47,000 dollars. Average cost of an execution is about 2 million across all states that have the death penalty. So you need to imprison someone for 42 years before you hit that cost.

Average time served for murder in the US is 25 years.

Like I said, I'm very curious to know where you got the above idea.

bananarama22 · 23-04-2012 01:34PM

MellowToast wrote: »

human rights keep getting in the way of proper punishment for scum

people who have no idea how terrible humans can be tend to not want capital punishment

prisons are just a different word for hotel imo

the vast majority commit criminal acts again when they are set free

it is very hard to know what should be done. the only belife I have is if you take some1s life then your human rights should be ripped from you. that includes clean water (they should be given disease ridden water) and the likes. this is never gona happen in my life time and i am only 23...so lets just not employ anyone who has been in prison (haha which is already the case). they already have their criminal jobs, they don't need 2nd chances from good people, who should give those jobs to other good people. their bad people that end up in prison, why should we care if they can't get a job, if their 12 offspring are hungry or if they have no education.

people make their own choices in life, that effect the kids as well i know, but bad people will make bad choices for themselves and set bad examples to their offspring. good people make good choices in life and so their offspring will excel at life. this is what the world has ALWAYS been like.

bad people will never change is my point, they will just get worse with every generation.

Jayziz, all hail Dictator MellowToast :P

saa · 23-04-2012 01:34PM

Well something needs to change I know violent punishment isn't the solution but the reality is that is the punishment criminals dole out to each other is violent and going to prison for a few months and getting to go to court 25 times doesn't seem to phase anyone around my area, they continue to get caught being involved with drugs and violent or petty crimes and are still hanging around these are mostly the kids who instead of being punished in school were thrown out, and there might of been a time where they would of had to find work or they would be out on their ear but in stead they are given so much of the wrong kind of support.

Should Ireland reintroduce capital punishment?

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