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Abortion

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Comments

  • #152
    LilyCricket
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 232 ✭✭LilyCricket


    bored


  • #153
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    eviltwin wrote: »
    What makes you think your view on the point life begins is any more valid that TrueorFalses?

    Science.


  • #154
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Science.

    The science is not conclusive and there is differing opinions among the science community. Science, or mans understanding of science is ever evolving when new data comes to light.


  • #155
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    Science.

    Even science isn't 100%. Does life begin at conception or implantation or at the moment a heart beats or when brain activity starts....

    Its hard to say and everyone will have their own definition of "life".

    You have yours, let someone who has a different view on that make a choice for themselves what is right for them.


  • #156
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    The science is not conclusive and there is differing opinions among the science community. Science, or mans understanding of science is ever evolving when new data comes to light.

    The debate among scientist about when life begins generally splits between fertilisation and implantation, not up to as far as 20 or 24 weeks.

    Have a look at the following list of references from scientists who state that life begins at fertilisation:

    http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

    Here's the first four:

    "Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
    [England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


    "Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
    "Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
    [Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


    "Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
    [Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


    "Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
    [Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]
    I challenge you to find one quote from a reputable scientist saying that life begins after 6+ weeks or at birth.


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  • #157
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Does Irish law give a legal definition of when life begins?


  • #158
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Even science isn't 100%. Does life begin at conception or implantation or at the moment a heart beats or when brain activity starts....

    Its hard to say and everyone will have their own definition of "life".

    You have yours, let someone who has a different view on that make a choice for themselves what is right for them.

    The general consensus in the science community is that life begins at fertilisation. If you want to pick and choose which scientific facts you agree and disagree with, that's your decision.


  • #159
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    The debate among scientist about when life begins generally splits between fertilisation and implantation, not up to as far as 20 or 24 weeks.

    Have a look at the following list of references from scientists who state that life begins at fertilisation:

    http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

    Here's the first four:

    I challenge you to find one quote from a reputable scientist saying that life begins after 6+ weeks or at birth.

    I agree with these views. I'm just saying that not all science is fact. Both sides of the argument have their "scientists" who they will quote.


  • #160
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    The general consensus in the science community is that life begins at fertilisation. If you want to pick and choose which scientific facts you agree and disagree with, that's your decision.

    Is that what our laws are based on? I'm just curious then as to how contraception that prevents implantation and the morning after pill are legal then...surely they are then abortifacients ?


  • #161
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Does Irish law give a legal definition of when life begins?

    X-case judgement said life begins with Implantation of fertilised egg. The difference between Irish law and the Science is practically negligible as the time period between fertilisation and implantation is very narrow (7 - 10 days).


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  • #162
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    X-case judgement said life begins with Implantation of fertilised egg. The difference between Irish law and the Science is practically negligible as the time period between fertilisation and implantation is very narrow (7 - 10 days).

    Thanks for that


  • #163
    Atlantis50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Atlantis50


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Is that what our laws are based on? I'm just curious then as to how contraception that prevents implantation and the morning after pill are legal then...surely they are then abortifacients ?

    No because morning after pill works before implantation which occurs 7 to 10 days after conception (fertilisation). See my post above.


  • #164
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    LilyCricket wrote: »
    Should it be available here?

    Regardless of circumstance?
    Yes it should IMO - but not regardless of circumstances in a blanket sense. Case by case.


  • #165
    grenache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭grenache


    If the mother's life is in danger, or if the baby is certified to be still-born, then of course the option to abort should be available to women in this country.

    On the whole, i'm not in favour of abortion, but i am just a man.

    And the average man doesn't really have a say in this issue. Or at least that's what i'm lead to believe.


  • #166
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    grenache wrote: »
    On the whole, i'm not in favour of abortion, but i am just a man.

    And the average man doesn't really have a say in this issue. Or at least that's what i'm lead to believe.
    I guess the final decision is down to the mother, which I think is unfair on the father if he wants the baby - I know a guy this happened to and my heart was broken for him. But it's a bit "persecutiony" imo to claim no man ever has a say...


  • #167
    grenache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭grenache


    Dudess wrote: »
    I guess the final decision is down to the mother, which I think is unfair on the father if he wants the baby - I know a guy this happened to and my heart was broken for him. But it's a bit "persecutiony" imo to claim no man ever has a say...

    I always get the dirty look thrown at me from women if i express an opinion on abortion. I can feel the "it's my body who's carrying it, who are you to tell me what to do!" vibe going on.....

    Or maybe i'm just paranoid.


  • #168
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Where is your evidence that most abortions happen outside marriage?

    I don't have any, it's an assumption on my behalf. If you are in a loving marriage and financially sound your less likely to want an abortion, or am I wrong? Why would you chose that option unless you had a medical condition?


    Because adoption for married couples is illegal in this country....


  • #169
    Scanlas The 2nd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    grenache wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    I guess the final decision is down to the mother, which I think is unfair on the father if he wants the baby - I know a guy this happened to and my heart was broken for him. But it's a bit "persecutiony" imo to claim no man ever has a say...

    I always get the dirty look thrown at me from women if i express an opinion on abortion. I can feel the "it's my body who's carrying it, who are you to tell me what to do!" vibe going on.....

    Or maybe i'm just paranoid.

    If the unborn baby could speak maybe it would say who are you not to let me live.


  • #170
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    If the unborn baby could speak maybe it would say who are you not to let me live.

    If a potato could speak maybe it would say who are you to cook me up and make mashed spuds?


  • #171
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    It isn't down to the mother or father, when we were in our mother's womb, it was our life, not their life.
    Those nine months of our life are every bit as important as the lives we now lead, it is our lives when we lived in the womb, not anyone elses.
    I don't believe anyone had the right to kill me in those nine months, just because my residence was in a womb.


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  • #172
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    I laugh how the liberals are against capital punishment for mass killers yet jump at the thought of killing innocent babies!


  • #173
    saa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭saa


    I would never get an abortion unless my life was in danger because I would not be able to take it emotionally because of how I feel about wanting to have my own children not every other woman feels that way so I try not to project my emotional attachments or facts about the the fetuses life onto other women especially because of how prevalent miscarriages are and they are hard enough to move on from without people trying to dramatise what losing a feotus is to us whether we have to chose that option or it happens.

    And if you do save these babies lives where do they go I don't know any prolifers I've met from the care system not sure if thats a coincidence or just being left with a less emotional look on life, being brought up by parent(s) that did not want to have you/werent capable of making that decision due to sevre mental health or addiction is not something I wish to anyone else and abortion is available as much as I do not wish that on another woman it is the fact you have to travel that just excludes people and does not solve the problem, whether it is right or wrong, whether you want it or not other women will seek it whether it is legal or not.
    I don't want abortions to happen but if I get it banned that is not fixing anything it just means later term abortions which sickens me and excluding people because of their means and ability to travel.

    I am never getting an abortion, I do not want others to do so but they will and I will not stick my head in the sand and wave a don't do it you evil horrible person don't YOU know that a foetus is..flag, if the issues that cause women to make that choice were tackled first we'd get alot further.


  • #174
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    NinjaK wrote: »
    I laugh how the liberals are against capital punishment for mass killers yet jump at the thought of killing innocent babies!

    Point out a single 'liberal' who advocates the killing of a baby or admit that you are full of sh*t.


  • #175
    CommanderC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 420 ✭✭CommanderC


    oh for **** sake.

    When are you people going to listen ???

    You cannot interfere in the lives of people you do not know. Their lives, their bodies, their babies, their abortions- whatever.

    Its none of your business. So many people seem to have such a hard time understanding that their own opinion is not the right one for everyone else :rolleyes:


  • #176
    Ulises Deep Geisha
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ulises Deep Geisha


    I think it should be allowed yeah, with an early time limit


  • #177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Atlantis50 wrote: »
    The debate among scientist about when life begins generally splits between fertilisation and implantation, not up to as far as 20 or 24 weeks.

    But when life begins isn't the point - the point is when the right to that life begins.

    I believe a foetus is alive, I believe an embryo is alive, I believe a zygote is alive. I believe sperm are alive. But I don't think it should have any rights until quite far into pregnancy.


  • #178
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    If used in a respectful way then the option should be there but i would think it would be used and abused too much, sex- ed seems to be still crap in this country improving this aspect should be invested in heavily and with less draconian thought proccess.


  • #179
    Ulises Deep Geisha
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ulises Deep Geisha


    billybudd wrote: »
    If used in a respectful way then the option should be there but i would think it would be used and abused too much, sex- ed seems to be still crap in this country improving this aspect should be invested in heavily and with less draconian thought proccess.

    I'm not sure that it could be used too much, I really doubt anyone out there would want to repeatedly undergo a medical procedure for kicks.

    I agree on sex ed though. The ideal for everyone concerned would be no unwanted pregnancies in the first the place where possible


  • #180
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'm not sure that it could be used too much, I really doubt anyone out there would want to repeatedly undergo a medical procedure for kicks.

    I agree on sex ed though. The ideal for everyone concerned would be no unwanted pregnancies in the first the place where possible


    Had America in mind when i wrote that with some women having upto four abortions.


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  • #181
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    CommanderC wrote: »
    oh for **** sake.

    When are you people going to listen ???

    You cannot interfere in the lives of people you do not know. Their lives, their bodies, their babies, their abortions- whatever.

    Its none of your business. So many people seem to have such a hard time understanding that their own opinion is not the right one for everyone else :rolleyes:

    :D


This discussion has been closed.
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